Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

[mgrand15]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

I actually love the freelance and plays for users. I think it works REALLY well and sets up beautiful if you combine POE + "Freelance" (instead of motion) then combine just passing to where the triggers are, or hitting smart play or calling plays when you want something specific. It does a great job of replicating real NBA offense when you have offensive systems, different options but also the option of calling set plays when you want something specific.

Now, I can't speak for AI vs. User in typical game play settings but seeing the lack of Free Lance in MyPlayer is a disaster. The default for every single team seems to be "3-2 offense" and "Motion". On my team, I have playcalls on Auto and turn Play Messages "ON". Basically, they call the same handful of plays over and over. When they fail, we hop into the 3-2 offense. Honestly, it sucks. As soon as we go into the 3-2, the AI freaks out and either takes a contested jumper or drives into the paint recklessly and takes a contested floater.

For the future, I think the AI should make sure they have the correct free lance offense assigned to them and they should use them more often. Maybe a "Freelance vs. Play call" tendency. A team like Houston would run 90% Pace Free Lance with PNR POE or James Harden POE. Teams with more structured offenses would call more plays. Just something to think about. The free lance system is amazing. The AI wastes it in my experience though.

[mgrand15]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

We also need better ai defense for ball screens. No reason a guy in the opposite corner should switch to the roll man if he runs a pick and pop.

This too. I think the video (and a couple of Sam Phan's other vids) really exposes the AI's PNR defense. I know this is something the dev's are working and it's really hard to implement properly. There needs to be some sort of base defense for how they handle PNRs. Whether it's switching anything that isn't 1-5 like the Warriors. Trapping/blitzing like the Heat last year. Staying way back (like bigger centers). Half way like a couple teams.

It's really hard to replicate how good defenses follow these rules to a T and how bad defenses make mistakes. I would love to get to the point where I feel like certain teams/players are able to completely blow up PNRs and other teams/players just can't handle them. I want to get the point where scoring with the ball handler is the 1st option but just like IRL - I'm forced to look for the roll man - then if he's not available, I'm forced to swing it to the perimeter - either for an open 3 or to reset the offense. Also not just because the AI warped to a spot or because a slow center contained John Wall.

Ideally, everyone would rotate properly and force me to make a quick read and if I personally mess up, I'd have to reset the play and start over. Now just like in real NBA, I have 11 seconds on the clock and I have to make something happen.

Obviously this stuff is a work in progress and none of my complaints are disregarding the hard work the Czar and the devs have put into the system. Just thinking about it and putting it into words is difficult. I can't even imagine programming that.

[raiderphantom]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Great breakdown. I've been thinking this for a long time. I didn't know the disparity was that bad though. I really think the pick n roll game itself could use special attention in how it's run and how its defended. I see them make improvements with the settings but I don't feel like they always work correctly. Ex. I'll set all my bigs to hedge hard and they don't show at all particularly if there's some type of misdirection leading into the ball screen. There's some talented hard workers at 2K so I'm betting we continue to see improvement.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

This guy makes THE best 2k videos. Good job man. I love that I am not the only one to think like the OP.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

QFT

I run the pace n space offense with freelance. I then run my POE as pick and roll. I also manually add ton of PnR plays to my playbook and utilize the smart play option.

My team is constantly setting on ball screens with this method and it is a nice scheme. I also like to manually call certain pick n rolls/pops when a player(s) gets hot. There are limitless options here.

Btw id love to see the flex freelance offense integrated in the game. Watching Jerry Sloan's teams were so fun to watch.

[jenesaispas]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

We also need better ai defense for ball screens. No reason a guy in the opposite corner should switch to the roll man if he runs a pick and pop.

This. The thing about a lot of PnR defense is that, especially if the ball handler isnt a great jump shooter, the big will show and the guard will go under and sag to protect the drive. On this game, if you sag, help will come from the defender on the strong side corner and it ALWAYS leaves a jump shooter open. It doesn't just happen on the PnR though. Some sets have bigs with the ball at the top of the key when when I'm on-ball, i sag deep because he's no threat so im watching out for backdoors, lobs, etc. Often, when i sag, a help defender leaves his man to guard mine. it's like dude get the **** away from me and go guard your man.


Transition defense needs help also. In real life, players are taught to guard an open man in transition and switch once the counter-attack has been quelled. Bigs usually rim-run so they get back to each other. But on 2K, defenders are looking to guard THEIR man instead of the immediate threat so often you end up with a guard running around everybody for a dunk while you have a player standing near the paint. Or you have guys scrambling to get to their man in the open floor, leaving somebody open around the arc. Now, in a real game, the second scenario can happen when you have a breakdown in communication and that's perfectly fine to have it happen once in a while because this is how it happens in real life. But on 2K it's basically every fastbreak. You will either get beat by one guy that runs straight to the rim, even if all of your players are back. Or you will give up an uncontested 3 because guys are scrambling to find their man instead of guarding the immediate threat. these could be fine tuned to help defense overall.

[itchyroll_51]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Great breakdown. I've been thinking this for a long time. I didn't know the disparity was that bad though. I really think the pick n roll game itself could use special attention in how it's run and how its defended. I see them make improvements with the settings but I don't feel like they always work correctly. Ex. I'll set all my bigs to hedge hard and they don't show at all particularly if there's some type of misdirection leading into the ball screen. There's some talented hard workers at 2K so I'm betting we continue to see improvement.

From a user standpoint I can manage the PnR defense okay because I can switch to the big and do my own hedging. Don't get me wrong though there are still problems there but it isn't as glaring as AI PnR defense. I will make a video on this soon but what I have noticed is that when the AI guards the PnR, the two defenders are not "communitcaing". It feels like they are each doing their own defensive scheme depending on what their check does or what they were set to do; and this type of behaviour often puts them into terrible situations.

Example:

I ran a Norris Cole and Anthony Davis PnR on Ty Lawson and Faried. Lawson decided to go under the pick (makes sense sinc Norris Cole isn't an elite pull up shooter) however Faried decided to hard hedge at the same time. This ended up giving AD a wide open roll. What went terribly wrong here is that Lawson was guarding Cole as if he's a minimal threat (correct) while Faried guarded Cole like he is a major threat (incorrect, ANTHONY FREAKIN DAVIS is the threat). This problem happens often and it gets worse when the screener receives a pass. Like I said, I will make a video on this soon when I get the time ^_^ Those are just my thoughts so far.

Sam Pham

[mango_prom]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

Thanks for the advice, Czar. Here are a few point that are interesting to me, strictly related to CPU controlled teams, where I don't see much purpuseful ball movement or screening game outside of set plays. Which seems to be harder to fix than on user controlled teams, since the AI has to do this on it's own.


1) Do you have any additional insights on how to set up CPU teams in a way that they're not going into iso sizeup move spamming after a play breaks down? Often, you've just got 4 offensive players standing around with the ball handler repeatedly bumping into his defender. Increasing global tendency sliders makes the CPU more aggressive, but it seems to mess with play execution at times.

2) I was wondering which freestyle setting is supposed to be best for CPU teams for creating lots of movement? In one of your freestyle preview video threads I think you've said it's freestyle actions as AI default. But if I switch the controller to CPU teams during games, it's always set on motion cuts, where the AI doesn't seem to execute the passes necessary to create off ball movement. With CPU set to freelance actions, I also often see them going into their default set after a play without triggering further movement. Is the AI even capable of using all 3 freelance options? And which is preferable in your opinion for CPU teams?

3) How is the run plays slider supposed to influence CPU teams? Do lower values mean less set plays being called or just increase the time before a play is called after a defensive rebound? Which value range do you consider good for CPU teams? And is the slider related on how the AI handles freelance offense?

Basically it would be nice to have the CPU attempt more actions after a play breaks down. Which happens quite a lot, especially with PNRs. Playing against the Pelicans for example, Anthony Davis isn't getting much good looks out of PNR plays since the CPU rarely plays the lead pass even if he's open. And after the play breaks, everybody just stands around, and it's guard iso ball. Can we do anything to improve this stuff?

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

I counted the passes for 1 quarter in MyGM mode (12 min qtrs). I use a SS Sim set of sliders. I did not count the inbounds or outlet passes, but I did count every other pass. For 1 quarter I counted 58 passes and 11 on ball screens used by the CPU. This would equal out to be 232 passes and 44 screens.

Again, I did not include inbounds and outlet passes, but if I were to add the amount of possessions then you could add around 20 additional passes which equal out to be 312 passes per game. This sounds more reasonable.

Also, the CPU had 6 possessions in which they pass the ball 5 or more times in a possession, so this would be 24 possessions for an entire game. I don't think it is perfect and it not a huge sample size, but I think the problem can be fixed a bit.

One key note here....make sure you lower the CPU post up and post shot tendencies to 35-45 range. I also raise their 3 pt tendency a tad, because at 50 it seemed like they never pulled the trigger when they had decent looks with good shooters from outside.

I'll post a video and you guys can watch yourself.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lwC4xZnjyIU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I did another test. I counted the passes for game 2 in the 2nd quarter (I counted all passes this time). My results were 67 passes and only 3 on ball screens. There were a lot of off ball screens however. This would equal out to be 268 passes for an entire game and only 12 on ball screens. These were on a bit different sliders where I still had my post up tendencies around 50. Here is the video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dKPwlIFQznE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Overall, it is improved from the past and can be partially fixed with sliders. You need to try for a good mix of 3 point attempts, passes, post ups, etc. The main problem I have is sometimes the CPU passes the ball without a purpose and they can be nonchalant about their movements and passes. This is not every time, but sometimes they have just pointless possessions for no reason. (E.g, holding ball for no reason). The main problem is that the CPU seems to want to only run sets and not use their freelance offense or quick pick and rolls when a play breaks down.

If the embeded videos don't work try these links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwC4xZnjyIU&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKPwlIFQznE

[mango_prom]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

The main problem is that the CPU seems to want to only run sets and not use their freelance offense or quick pick and rolls when a play breaks down.

This is what I've noticed as well. Does the AI even use freelance actions or some kind of quick hitting plays? For example, if a CPU team uses 3-2 as the base set, neither motion cuts nor freelance actions seem to trigger much movement from AI players. They'll mostly go into the basic 3-2 spacing, and not much happens besides aimlessly passing the ball around on the perimeter (which often results in an open three since the CPU doesn't close out wings well) or the ball handler forcing his way to the basket against bumping animations.

One suggestion for 2k16 would be to implement some kind of quick action system depending on play types assigned to players and their touches value. I'm not talking about some "smart play" nonsense with the same plays being called over and over again. Rather quick developing plays out of a base set that complement the normal playbook.

For example...out of the 3-2 freelance set, there could be quick PNRs triggered on the top of the key and on each side by the posting big. Nothing fancy, just a basic pick. Post ups are on both sides anyway, with High/Low just depending on where the big actually posts up. For shooters, just include some quick backscreen actions. Isolations could be implemented out of the basic set by everybody just clearing out.

When and how these plays are triggered could depend on the run plays slider (actually determining their frequency vs normal plays, think D'Antoni offense) and assigned play types. So a player can only trigger actions he has actually assigned to him.

This might sound a lot like the idea behing freelance actions, but I feel it's much more intuitive, adjustable and flexible that way. Could improve AI play a lot if done correctly. Maybe freelance actions is supposed to be all that, but right now it's not really working for the CPU I think.

[raiderphantom]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

From a user standpoint I can manage the PnR defense okay because I can switch to the big and do my own hedging. Don't get me wrong though there are still problems there but it isn't as glaring as AI PnR defense. I will make a video on this soon but what I have noticed is that when the AI guards the PnR, the two defenders are not "communitcaing". It feels like they are each doing their own defensive scheme depending on what their check does or what they were set to do; and this type of behaviour often puts them into terrible situations.

Example:

I ran a Norris Cole and Anthony Davis PnR on Ty Lawson and Faried. Lawson decided to go under the pick (makes sense sinc Norris Cole isn't an elite pull up shooter) however Faried decided to hard hedge at the same time. This ended up giving AD a wide open roll. What went terribly wrong here is that Lawson was guarding Cole as if he's a minimal threat (correct) while Faried guarded Cole like he is a major threat (incorrect, ANTHONY FREAKIN DAVIS is the threat). This problem happens often and it gets worse when the screener receives a pass. Like I said, I will make a video on this soon when I get the time ^_^ Those are just my thoughts so far.

Sam Pham

I wouldn't say that's a terrible strategy. Going under and hard hedging is fairly common. I think in that situation it would have more to do with the actual execution. Did a weak side defender bump AD? Did the hedging big re-route Cole? Anyway, I rarely see a hard hedge from the cpu. I almost always see none or a soft hedge. I never see Ice either which has probably become the more typical pnr defense these days. Granted, I don't play 2K15 a whole lot. Another issue I see is screeners rolling very late. Good pnr teams have their bigs make minimal contact and it helps when the NBA is pretty lenient with moving screens as well.