Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Should be, yes. Absolutely. Zero argument from me.

However, Madden already exists as is, and we can't change the past. We also don't live in a vacuum.

Moving forward, does Tiburon prioritize a wholesale AI rewrite of how DLs and LBs play against the run - minding their gaps - over a new set of passing controls / a new package-based play calling paradigm / a new way to make plays downfield as a wide receiver or cornerback / Hit Stick 3.0 while making incremental adjustments to defensive AI to eventually get to the point we all want over the course of several years? I don't think they do on account of the audience of the game. The masses want the big-ticket new gameplay features to justify the purchase of the new year's game. That's all I'm really trying to say, that my expectations are ultimately tempered on that front.

Let add this one last point, because I don't want to derail anything and I posted that last post before I read this one.

You're right. In the grand scheme of things, Madden is what it is. It's been that way for a while and expectations should be tempered that way. I understand how business works. I understand cost to benfit ratio, and R&D; all of that.

But saying it's okay to leave something basic and fundamental to a game out because consumers won't know it's missing is just wrong on so many levels. And if... i want to emphasis IF... if that is the way Tiburon has been doing business all these years, then it justifies all of the negativity I've seen thrown at them over the years and I'm hoping that's just not the case.

[aholbert32]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Should be, yes. Absolutely. Zero argument from me.

However, Madden already exists as is, and we can't change the past. We also don't live in a vacuum.

Moving forward, does Tiburon prioritize a wholesale AI rewrite of how DLs and LBs play against the run - minding their gaps - over a new set of passing controls / a new package-based play calling paradigm / a new way to make plays downfield as a wide receiver or cornerback / Hit Stick 3.0 while making incremental adjustments to defensive AI to eventually get to the point we all want over the course of several years? I don't think they do on account of the audience of the game. The masses want the big-ticket new gameplay features to justify the purchase of the new year's game. That's all I'm really trying to say, that my expectations are ultimately tempered on that front.

Great point. I'd argue that 60-70% (this number may be too low) of the people who visit this forum buy Madden each year because they need a football fix and love the NFL.

Casual fans need big ticket features to entice them to buy the game each year. Something on the back of the box or in a commercial that makes them want the game.

Question: Its messed up but why should EA market to OS gamers? Most of us will buy the game no matter what changes are made. Even when the game was skewing more towards arcade, plenty of people here still bought the game each year.

There is a small contingent of guys who will never buy Madden no matter what because they preferred other games, think madden needs a complete rebuild or are upset about the exclusive license. Its useless to market to those guys.

Finally there is a small contingent of people who would buy the game if it EA added a few sim like features to the game. But is that contingent big enough to justify the manpower and marketing costs to add those features?

[shaunlmason]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Should be, yes. Absolutely. Zero argument from me.

However, Madden already exists as is, and we can't change the past. We also don't live in a vacuum.

Moving forward, does Tiburon prioritize a wholesale AI rewrite of how DLs and LBs play against the run - minding their gaps - over a new set of passing controls / a new package-based play calling paradigm / a new way to make plays downfield as a wide receiver or cornerback / Hit Stick 3.0 while making incremental adjustments to defensive AI to eventually get to the point we all want over the course of several years? I don't think they do on account of the audience of the game. The masses want the big-ticket new gameplay features to justify the purchase of the new year's game. That's all I'm really trying to say, that my expectations are ultimately tempered on that front.

You know you are preaching to the choir. Thought I replied to you, the reply was more erudite in point.=)

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Damn near every sports game is a sim/arcade hybrid. EVERY GAME. From the Show to NBA2k to Madden. Out of the box NBA2k is a arcadey dunkfest with poor rebounding logic and hardly any fouls called. Once I tweak it with sliders and coach settings, I get it to play a realistic game of Basketball. Same goes with the Show.

The difference is some steer closer to a true simulation and others steer closer to an arcade game. Its disingenuous to act as if EA hasnt taken steps the last few years to make the game more sim. All of these features were added in the last version of Madden:

- Improved OL/DL interaction
- Improved man/zone logic
- Increased pass inaccuracy
- Playcalling improvements.

Now were all of those things implemented successfully...no. But the fact that the attempt was made shows that EA has an interest in bringing the game closer to a sim game. You are completely justified in being upset that they havent accomplished making this game a complete sim (and you can show that buy not buying the game). I just dont agree that the have an arcade approach to improving the game.

Finally "Mario Kart" is a poor analogy. Madden isnt "Mario Kart." Blitz was more like Mario Kart. A better analogy would be Gran Turismo vs. Forza. I dont know much about either game but I remember back in the day racing fans would tout Forza as the better racing simulation because of all of the options, tuning and realistic driving feel that game had.

GT didnt have the options that Forza had but people still bought it because for many it was close enough to a real driving simulation. Most people just want close enough. I know thats a hard pill to swallow but while there is a vocal minority here who would like EA to tear down Madden from the bottom up....most of us are OK if they continue to add simulation elements and fix parts of the engine that are clearly broken.

Nah, Mario Cart was an apt description, going this route there is just as much of a chance that Mario Cart becomes "sim" as there is for Madden. Senator Palmer is stating the point way more eloquent than me but at the end of the day the result is still the same, an arcade football game that distorts or leaves out football fundamentals, for a myriad of reasons, with the only one that really matters being because the powers that be at EA don't care about actually providing the type of realistic game they claim. Why should they when they can just say they do, never deliver it and get a pass because they're trying. Again all the specifics behind why that is the case are besides the point, I don't have nothing against the latest workman on Madden, I'm sure they actually want to make Madden into the game they claim to, they just can't, no one can.

To bring this full circle, again, that's where Madden and Mario Cart are the same, there's no way to turn either into something they are fundamentally not designed to be. If this weren't the case EA wouldn't bother "marketing", ie fabricating, about building a new this and that from the ground up all the time. That's their admission right there that the game needs an overhaul to accomplish their realistic claims but again no need to actually allow anyone to do that, at least not on the large scale needed, when they can just market wholesale change while only incrementally providing some distorted version of it.

As far as any attempts at realism for Madden, it's very hollow imo, when they know full well upfront that it won't/can't function like they claim because the game isn't fundamentally designed that way. For example touting any manner of realistic line play when that would require a complete overhaul of how the game handles line play yet still claiming "the line play is the best ever in a football game" when that overhaul hasn't happened.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Great point. I'd argue that 60-70% (this number may be too low) of the people who visit this forum buy Madden each year because they need a football fix and love the NFL.

Casual fans need big ticket features to entice them to buy the game each year. Something on the back of the box or in a commercial that makes them want the game.

You might be right and I may be lacking the big picture on this point, but what was the big ticket item for say NBA 2K this year? And if there was one how come it's never stopped them from improving the sim aspects and fundamentals of the game every year?

As far as enticing people to buy? EA has the benefit of being affiliated with the biggest sports cash cow in the United State. The NFL is a goldmine. The game literally sells itself at this point. My mother knows what Madden is and she's near retirement age and hasn't picked up a controller since Duck Hunt on Nintendo.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Damn near every sports game is a sim/arcade hybrid. EVERY GAME. From the Show to NBA2k to Madden. Out of the box NBA2k is a arcadey dunkfest with poor rebounding logic and hardly any fouls called. Once I tweak it with sliders and coach settings, I get it to play a realistic game of Basketball. Same goes with the Show.

The difference is some steer closer to a true simulation and others steer closer to an arcade game...

Agreed, but of all the major sports, Madden is the furthest from sim. And the gap grows every year. The animations & AI available in those other games allows for realistic play. No sliders or settings can make Madden anywhere near as realistic.

...Its disingenuous to act as if EA hasnt taken steps the last few years to make the game more sim. All of these features were added in the last version of Madden:

- Improved OL/DL interaction
- Improved man/zone logic
- Increased pass inaccuracy
- Playcalling improvements.

Now were all of those things implemented successfully...no. But the fact that the attempt was made shows that EA has an interest in bringing the game closer to a sim game...

IMO, there's good reason why those features weren't implemented successfully. Same reason why nothing seems to be implemented successfully. The root causes of the problems they're attempting to address are ignored.

How were linemen going to interact realistically without d-linemen having gap/rush assignments/AI? The engage, disengage, chase ball AI can't delivery realistic interaction.

How was coverage going to improve without realistic footwork & interaction animations? What exactly did they do?

How was accuracy going to improve with the ball still tethered to WRs? Without realistic footwork from WRs? Without pressure effecting accuracy? Without coverage effecting accuracy. Again, what did they do here? I haven't seen anything different regarding QB accuracy.

IMO, not much will be right with madden until they fix the foundation of the game. Until the animations, footwork & AI are addressed in a football way, the spacing, timing, look & feel of this game will be off. To a serious sports gamer (most gamers I would assume), the improvements are not noticable because their effects are limited by the lack of attention to the root causes of these problems.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Question: Its messed up but why should EA market to OS gamers? Most of us will buy the game no matter what changes are made. Even when the game was skewing more towards arcade, plenty of people here still bought the game each year.

There is a small contingent of guys who will never buy Madden no matter what because they preferred other games, think madden needs a complete rebuild or are upset about the exclusive license. Its useless to market to those guys.

Finally there is a small contingent of people who would buy the game if it EA added a few sim like features to the game. But is that contingent big enough to justify the manpower and marketing costs to add those features?

In theory, like I said earlier in the thread, word-of-mouth marketing. Those who care the most about the game are most likely to talk about it and get more eyes on it.

In practice? Not sure, for the points you mentioned. To be fair, however, when was the last time Tiburon marketed to Operation Sports directly? Their Twitch streams last year brought in the OS audience, yes, but those also brought in anyone who follows @EASportsMaddenNFL on Twitter, where they promoted the streams. I assume the group of people who are followers of Madden on Twitter is a broad cross-section of people who like various aspects of the game. In contrast, other than Rex Dickson popping up for a post or two every now and then I haven't seen continued direct interaction between Tiburon and OS on OS in years.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

The game has not even been leaked with a screen shot, nor a second of video and it's

DOA

Here on OS.

LOL!!!!

Madden 15 for me has been a blast......look forward to hopefully some meaningful improvement upon that game in 16. If not I will keep playing 15.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

The game has not even been leaked with a screen shot, nor a second of video and it's

DOA

Here on OS.

LOL!!!!

Madden 15 for me has been a blast......look forward to hopefully some meaningful improvement upon that game in 16. If not I will keep playing 15.

It just comes a point when people stop kidding themselves about the product Tiburon will be shipping in August. When it comes to Madden, if dope was hope, we'd all be high.....

[aholbert32]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

It just comes a point when people stop kidding themselves about the product Tiburon will be shipping in August. When it comes to Madden, if dope was hope, we'd all be high.....

I dont know if thats the case with me. If Madden 16 is the same as Madden 15 except with WR/DB interaction and penalties that work, I would be happy. The game wouldnt be at the level of some of the alltime greatest football games but it would be solid enough to get me through football season.

[aholbert32]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

You might be right and I may be lacking the big picture on this point, but what was the big ticket item for say NBA 2K this year? And if there was one how come it's never stopped them from improving the sim aspects and fundamentals of the game every year?

As far as enticing people to buy? EA has the benefit of being affiliated with the biggest sports cash cow in the United State. The NFL is a goldmine. The game literally sells itself at this point. My mother knows what Madden is and she's near retirement age and hasn't picked up a controller since Duck Hunt on Nintendo.

The big ticket item for NBA 2k was the new My Career mode story, My Park and My League (for the sim heads). Dont get me wrong. I would be ecstatic if EA removed that abomination they call CFM and gave us a franchise similar to My League. I love that NBA2k is more willing to throw sim fans a bone. Also, the fundamentals of a football game are more difficult to simulate than a basketball game imo.

I'm not going to sell EA short. The NFL is a gold mine but EA has done an incredible job of turning Madden into a juggernaut. The NFL license alone doesnt equal sales. NFL Fever and Gameday were gone before the exclusive deal because of low sales. 2k had to drop the price of their game to get people to give their game a try.

Madden has always been a very easy pick and play type football game when compared to other games. Maybe thats part of the reason its always been the #1 selling football game. That and the job EA has done building the Madden brand. So EA's approach is why rock the boat? Sales before and after the exclusive license have shown that people are willing to purchase Madden even at its most arcadey. So why would a corporation with stockholders to answer to take a risk like making the game a "total sim" and risk alienating current Madden fans and casual fans?

[HealyMonster]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

GameStop has revealed a quick feature on their Madden NFL 16 page. There isn't much to go off of here, but it's fun to speculate what it could be for the game. It obviously has something to do with WR/DB interaction, but it will be interesting to see how they implement it.

Guess we will find out something more official in May, when the first news, features and details arrive, but until then, what are your thoughts?


Madden NFL 16 is scheduled to release on August 25th.

Source - GameStop, thanks PastaPadre!

My body is ready

[aholbert32]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

In theory, like I said earlier in the thread, word-of-mouth marketing. Those who care the most about the game are most likely to talk about it and get more eyes on it.

In practice? Not sure, for the points you mentioned. To be fair, however, when was the last time Tiburon marketed to Operation Sports directly? Their Twitch streams last year brought in the OS audience, yes, but those also brought in anyone who follows @EASportsMaddenNFL on Twitter, where they promoted the streams. I assume the group of people who are followers of Madden on Twitter is a broad cross-section of people who like various aspects of the game. In contrast, other than Rex Dickson popping up for a post or two every now and then I haven't seen continued direct interaction between Tiburon and OS on OS in years.

When Ian and the previous dev team used to interact with the forums. They used to produce videos specifically for us showing new animations and changes from the previous years. Then they went away for multiple reasons.

1) OSers are some of the most demanding fans you will find on the net. When Ian didnt follow through on some of the things he promised, OSers pretty much ran him off. He wasnt very thick skinned but many of the people went a bit overboard. This is the reason we are really protective of devs who visit our site.

2) EA and the dev teams realized they dont really need to get our input and/or they can get our input without actually interacting with us. Like I said, most people here will buy Madden this year like they always do. So its would be a bit of a waste of marketing/development funds to market to fans who are going to buy your game no matter what.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I dont know if thats the case with me. If Madden 16 is the same as Madden 15 except with WR/DB interaction and penalties that work, I would be happy. The game wouldnt be at the level of some of the alltime greatest football games but it would be solid enough to get me through football season.

Well I mean you haven't been all "doom and gloom" with Madden in this thread so I wasn't really referring to guys like you, CM, Skyboxer, armor sword, ect. It's great that you guys find enjoyment in the product that Tiburon presents. Guys like myself feel like we should be getting more at this stage, and based on the past we know we won't be getting it, so we're just discussing/venting.

I personally had some fun with Madden 15 at times, but I know I'm getting a mediocre product. I'm just personally tired of it. I fooled myself into thinking maybe another platform generation would provide enough.

[Skyboxer]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Well I mean you haven't been all "doom and gloom" with Madden in this thread so I wasn't really referring to guys like you, CM, Skyboxer, armor sword, ect. It's great that you guys find enjoyment in the product that Tiburon presents. Guys like myself feel like we should be getting more at this stage, and based on the past we know we won't be getting it, so we're just discussing/venting.

I personally had some fun with Madden 15 at times, but I know I'm getting a mediocre product. I'm just personally tired of it. I fooled myself into thinking maybe another platform generation would provide enough.

Just to clarify.. I also think we are no where near where we should be with console FB gaming.
For me it's simply that there's nothing I can do about it other than voice what I want each year.
Even though the jump I'd like to see hasn't been reached yet, Madden15 was a very enjoyable game to me. When the day comes it isn't I'll stop buying.
Said it before but coming from stick figures etc.. I can easily enjoy these games. Doesn't mean I am totally satisfied in the end.