Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

[ODogg]

Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Football is completely subjective in how it should be modeled from the real thing. Whether you like the xp system or not I find it pretty funny some of you guys keep saying that NFL players don't have individual goals. Of course they ALL do w some being more selfish and vocal about it than others. And sure, maybe EA isn't getting it exactly right but the fact that they're trying to make the game go in that direction to me is a great idea, the game should have more of an RPG feel for long term game modes.

And yet I see some folks saying you can either have RPG or have realism?? Uh RPG is realism. RPG stands for role playing and when you are playing any game for the long haul you are playing some role.


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[brandon27]

Re: Madden 16 CFM initial impressions by Shopmaster Part 1

For me that doesn't change anything. If someone is rated 70 and putting up those numbers consistently, then the ratings system is flawed.


I remember them too. The difference comes down to what type of control someone wants. Unrealistic vs realistic control. Like you said further down in your post, there might not be a right or wrong answer. All depends on one's preference. I Wish we had both options.

Absolutely I'd say it is flawed. That's a whole other can of worms though. A large part of the problem is how driven these types of games are by ratings though, and how obsessed many players are with the OVR rating.


In my CFM's, for my WR's in particular, my OVR is irrelevant. It's all about the position they are in on my depth chart, and what abilities I want them to excel at, whether that's speed, route running etc. etc.


Which is why I kind of like this system. It allows me to focus the XP into the area's I want my players to "grow" and attributes I value as the guy running the team.


The execution of the system isn't the greatest, but to each their own though.

[brandon27]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Football is completely subjective in how it should be modeled from the real thing. Whether you like the xp system or not I find it pretty funny some of you guys keep saying that NFL players don't have individual goals. Of course they ALL do w some being more selfish and vocal about it than others. And sure, maybe EA isn't getting it exactly right but the fact that they're trying to make the game go in that direction to me is a great idea, the game should have more of an RPG feel for long term game modes.

And yet I see some folks saying you can either have RPG or have realism?? Uh RPG is realism. RPG stands for role playing and when you are playing any game for the long haul you are playing some role.


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Agreed.


As I said, when I hop into CFM, I look at the mode as me playing every single role.


I'm the GM, because I've built the roster, and I am being given control over the way I "train" and "improve" that roster by way of the XP system.



I'm the coach, because I control the depth chart, and scheme, and manage the game on gameday by calling the plays and making all the decisions in game.


I'm the player, because I'm the one executing the plays on the field. Which ties back into the XP system, because it helps me decide which aspects of my player to improve with the XP earned.


I'm the owner (if I include owner mode, which I didn't in M15 because of the finances situation), then I control the business side of it. Sadly, this part of CFM is still seriously lacking IMO.


I think the big problem with the system the way it is, it's too easy for the "cheesers" and the casual fans to take advantage of the system and build up XP by going out of their way to ensure certain players hit their goals so they can build a roster of superstars. That's the root cause of the problem IMO. To me, it's not a big issue since I play solo, offline against the CPU. As I said earlier, I don't let goals and such determine how I play. I try not to even look at them. I call my plays, I make my throws, etc based on what I see and what my game plan is against the CPU in game. If my WR hits his goals, great. If not, I don't care. The big thing for me, is playing in a competitive game, that I hopefully win.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

And yet I see some folks saying you can either have RPG or have realism?? Uh RPG is realism. RPG stands for role playing and when you are playing any game for the long haul you are playing some role.


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We are going to strongly disagree on this. In real life (realism) a player doesn't improve on something just because they arbitrarily decide what to approve on and how much they improve based on stats or goals. That RPG element is the opposite of realistic.

A real NFL player improves because of coaching (head, assistants and position), practice (drills being worked on, both individual and team), work ethic, playing time, etc, etc. And then the player increases production.

In real life (realism), reaching goals has no impact on a players progression. Reaching goals is a product of player progression.

[brandon27]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

We are going to strongly disagree on this. In real life (realism) a player doesn't improve on something just because they arbitrarily decide what to approve on and how much they improve based on stats or goals. That RPG element is the opposite of realistic.

A real NFL player improves because of coaching (head, assistants and position), practice (drills being worked on, both individual and team), work ethic, playing time, etc, etc. And then the player increases production.

In real life (realism), reaching goals has no impact on a players progression. Reaching goals is a product of player progression.

I don't think that's entirely right either though. A player DOES improve on something they arbitrarily decide to improve on, err... Well maybe it's their head coach, or position coach's recommendation that he trains on a certain area, however as a football player, I can say, I want to be a better catcher of the football, and spend hours upon hours working on a jugs machine, or with a QB to improve my ability at catching. If I want to be a better route runner, I can work on my speed, and agility training to improve my footwork and body control, and work with someone to teach me the proper techniques of when, where, and how to make my cuts in my routes. Of course, I do agree where that improvement is not based upon stats or goals. I'd say it does lead to improvements in statistics because said player has improved, but yes, the stats shouldn't be the key indicator in allotting points to a player to help them improve in a video game.


Often times though, that probably is directed by the coaching staff. So, I guess, give your coach a different set of points, that he can spend on player development through game planning, training, practice's and such that then awards the player's XP that can be spent/applied either by the player, or CPU automatically. Similar to the NFL head coach series. Afterall, isn't that the direction Madden Franchise was supposed to head after the Head Coach series was axed??

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

I don't think that's entirely right either though. A player DOES improve on something they arbitrarily decide to improve on, err... Well maybe it's their head coach, or position coach's recommendation that he trains on a certain area, however as a football player, I can say, I want to be a better catcher of the football, and spend hours upon hours working on a jugs machine, or with a QB to improve my ability at catching.

Because they practice at it. Not because they reach some goal. Some players will become a much better catcher (much better hands), while others won't improve much. All depends on what they focus on, how much they focus on it, who they are working with, and what potential they have to improve that particular trait. Goals have nothing to do with this. Which you actually do get into later in your post.

Often times though, that probably is directed by the coaching staff. So, I guess, give your coach a different set of points, that he can spend on player development through game planning, training, practice's and such that then awards the player's XP that can be spent/applied either by the player, or CPU automatically. Similar to the NFL head coach series. Afterall, isn't that the direction Madden Franchise was supposed to head after the Head Coach series was axed??

How XP is gained and used all depends on what type of control you want.

Unrealistic, gain XP through goals and spend XP on any trait with no potential cap on that trait.

Realistic, gain XP through realistic means, the things you have mentioned, and use the XP and have a higher % of XP spent on attributes that were focused on and a lower % of XP spent on other attributes, with a potential cap on all attributes.

In a realistic system, XP becomes a middle man that isn't even necessary. An unrealistic RPG system, XP is essential.

This all depends on what type of control someone wants. I really think you and I are basically agreeing in principle, and maybe not agreeing on some of the details.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

I don't think that's entirely right either though. A player DOES improve on something they arbitrarily decide to improve on, err... Well maybe it's their head coach, or position coach's recommendation that he trains on a certain area, however as a football player, I can say, I want to be a better catcher of the football, and spend hours upon hours working on a jugs machine, or with a QB to improve my ability at catching. If I want to be a better route runner, I can work on my speed, and agility training to improve my footwork and body control, and work with someone to teach me the proper techniques of when, where, and how to make my cuts in my routes. Of course, I do agree where that improvement is not based upon stats or goals. I'd say it does lead to improvements in statistics because said player has improved, but yes, the stats shouldn't be the key indicator in allotting points to a player to help them improve in a video game.


Often times though, that probably is directed by the coaching staff. So, I guess, give your coach a different set of points, that he can spend on player development through game planning, training, practice's and such that then awards the player's XP that can be spent/applied either by the player, or CPU automatically. Similar to the NFL head coach series. Afterall, isn't that the direction Madden Franchise was supposed to head after the Head Coach series was axed??

I like to use this example. Pick any WR in the league. Say he has a goal for 130 catches and he attains that goal should his catch ratings go up? Yes, should his speed increase? Not at all.

[msdm27]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

See, here's the thing (and just quoting this post as it was the last one in this realism/rpg discussion)...

Real life/realism will NEVER be attainable for ANY video game, no matter which way you try. The only way this would be possible in Madden is if games were played CPU vs. CPU because you'd take user input out of the equation, thus removing (for the most part) the chance of lower rated players performing beyond their abilities.

To the WR example, the reason why that'd WR succeeds is likely because the QB (user) is so skilled that it basically puts the lower rated WR in a position to succeed way beyound his actual ratings. Or you know... user catching :P

There is no way for a video game to represent coaching, practice, work ethic... and tie them to progression because... it is a VIDEO GAME! there is no AI in the world that could handle this. In addition, the fact that it is a video game creates time constraints that are not found in real life. In real life, a team has plenty of coaches and scouts that divide tasks amongst them.

Well, why doesn't Madden implement several position coaches and scouts, you say... What exactly would this achieve? So it'd be more realistic to click a button telling my WR coach that WR "X" has to train route running and then he'd magically get better at that?

I don't see how that is different from simply using XP for this very purpose.. As Brandon has stated previously, it appears to me the issue likes in the way they put XP at the forefront of the mode instead of making it look more "organic".

Point blank, gamers would never have enough time to actually play the games if any video game was to implement a realistic progression/training system. Same goes for the offseason and the draft, when it comes to scouting. This is why text-based games are generally seen as more complete/sound games.

The overall reason why XP has to be earned IN-GAME is because no game could ever create a system where the user practices (and it'd have to be a complete practice setup, not just for one individual player) 5 or 6 times before actually being able to go play a game. It would be an endless loop.

The one way I see to "solve" the XP issue is:
- First of all, physical attributes should not be able to be improved upon. Find a proper regression algorythm and apply it to declining players, but don't allow a 26 yr old WR with 86 speed to go to 92 speed just because he collected XP and decided to use them all on one thing.

- Lastly, tie the ability to use XP to your performance (and scale it for expectations/playing time). This would require Madden to have a more complete stat tracking system where the system could collect data for missed tackles, deep completions, pressures, blown coverages..... But this would actually create a system where you earn XP for your performance and then you can only use them on the very things that allowed you perform that way.
Ex: If I'm a QB and I'm dinking & dunking my way through XP, I'd unlock the ability to improve my short and mid range acc ratings.

Now if users were willing to live with a good degree of randomization for things like "work ethic" and "practice results" then a real system for progression might be created, but that would never fly.

[kehlis]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

A players attributes should determine performance, not the other way around.

[ehh]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Football is completely subjective in how it should be modeled from the real thing. Whether you like the xp system or not I find it pretty funny some of you guys keep saying that NFL players don't have individual goals. Of course they ALL do w some being more selfish and vocal about it than others.

The difference is that those players don't really have control over reaching their goals because it's on the coach, play calling, substitutions and a ton of other variables. In Madden, we control all of that so we can make unrealistic decisions just to meet a goal instead of focusing on the right play for the team.

It's not like Dez Bryant is using a Jedi Mind Trick IRL to force Romo to throw him the ball five times in a given drive. He can act like a divas as much as he wants but Garrett and Romo aren't going to care.

[msdm27]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Because they practice at it. Not because they reach some goal. Some players will become a much better catcher (much better hands), while others won't improve much. All depends on what they focus on, how much they focus on it, who they are working with, and what potential they have to improve that particular trait. Goals have nothing to do with this. Which you actually do get into later in your post.



How XP is gained and used all depends on what type of control you want.

Unrealistic, gain XP through goals and spend XP on any trait with no potential cap on that trait.

Realistic, gain XP through realistic means, the things you have mentioned, and use the XP and have a higher % of XP spent on attributes that were focused on and a lower % of XP spent on other attributes, with a potential cap on all attributes.

In a realistic system, XP becomes a middle man that isn't even necessary. An unrealistic RPG system, XP is essential.

This all depends on what type of control someone wants. I really think you and I are basically agreeing in principle, and maybe not agreeing on some of the details.

Could you expand a bit more on what your idea of realistic means for progression are, and how they could realistically be applied to a video game?

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Real life/realism will NEVER be attainable for ANY video game, no matter which way you try. The only way this would be possible in Madden is if games were played CPU vs. CPU because you'd take user input out of the equation, thus removing (for the most part) the chance of lower rated players performing beyond their abilities.

Difficulty of the user input for that player can be determined by the players ratings. This could be obtainable. It may or may not be preferred by the majority, but it is obtainable. And why would a user having input on controlling a player have on forcing a progression system to be unrealistic?

To the WR example, the reason why that'd WR succeeds is likely because the QB (user) is so skilled that it basically puts the lower rated WR in a position to succeed way beyound his actual ratings. Or you know... user catching :P

The difficulty in user controlling/user catching can be tied to attributes.

There is no way for a video game to represent coaching, practice, work ethic... and tie them to progression because... it is a VIDEO GAME!

This is a completely false statement. Assign attributes to head coaches, assistant coaches, and position coaches and use those to help determine progression.

there is no AI in the world that could handle this. In addition, the fact that it is a video game creates time constraints that are not found in real life. In real life, a team has plenty of coaches and scouts that divide tasks amongst them.

The time constraint is initial setup with tweaks week to week. I don't see any major time constraints on this. Using XP to micro manage attributes increase is more time constraining.

Well, why doesn't Madden implement several position coaches and scouts, you say... What exactly would this achieve? So it'd be more realistic to click a button telling my WR coach that WR "X" has to train route running and then he'd magically get better at that?

It would give realistic reasons on why a player may or may not get better at something.

Point blank, gamers would never have enough time to actually play the games if any video game was to implement a realistic progression/training system. Same goes for the offseason and the draft, when it comes to scouting. This is why text-based games are generally seen as more complete/sound games.

I disagree that gamers would never have enough time. I have time to play other sports games that are much more in line with a potential based progression system. I would like the other games to have more progression depth, but they are much closer than madden is.

The overall reason why XP has to be earned IN-GAME is because no game could ever create a system where the user practices (and it'd have to be a complete practice setup, not just for one individual player) 5 or 6 times before actually being able to go play a game. It would be an endless loop.

Why would it be an endless loop. You setup your practice schedule, team and individual drills and simulate practice. I would have nothing against having an option to play any particular practice if one chooses to do so. But Head Coach didn't require you to user control all 53 players in practice everyday.

I think you are starting off with a bunch of inaccurate assumptions.

[Skyboxer]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

A players attributes should determine performance, not the other way around.

Agree BUT not cut and dry unless EA gets rid of visual ratings all together and keeps them hidden.
Otherwise there would be no surprise stars drafted etc...
In any case the ratings have never mattered other than Speed and maybe some others with a bit of meaning.
They're there for show and nothing else really.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Could you expand a bit more on what your idea of realistic means for progression are, and how they could realistically be applied to a video game?

I like this question.

Coaches would have their own attributes like ability to teach different types of ratings. I think you could also assign player evaluation attributes to coaches (GM's and Scouts). This would/could include an entire coaching staff (assistants and position). You hire the type and quality of coaches and scouts you want.

Set up practice schedules, OTA's to regular season practices. The Computer can start you with a default practice schedule. The practice schedule can determine what types of team and individual drills are emphasized. I would have an option that would allow simulating the practices.

I would have player attributes have a potential max for individual attributes and have the actual attributes values hidden. You would see a perceived value for each attribute. The perception would be more or less accurate depending on the coaches (scouts) evaluation attributes and how much time the player has been on your team. I think this would bring depth to both roster management and drafting.

There are a lot of other realistic factors that could be used, like player work ethic, players potential max in each rating, having injuries effect progression, established veterans that are willing to mentor and how good they are at teaching (future coaches).

Practice would mainly be simulated, but I'm not against having an option to go into a practice mode for any practice one chooses to do so.

This is Just kind of a quick overview.

EA already has the XP system in place, and I would not recommend them removing it. If they removed it, those that like it would be in the same position I'm in of not liking the progression system. And I don't want to do that to anyone. But options would be nice.

[kehlis]

Re: Madden NFL 16 CFM Impressions - Confidence, Goals, Hub & More (MyMaddenPad)

Agree BUT not cut and dry unless EA gets rid of visual ratings all together and keeps them hidden.

Otherwise there would be no surprise stars drafted etc...

In any case the ratings have never mattered other than Speed and maybe some others with a bit of meaning.

They're there for show and nothing else really.

Agreed and I didnt intend for that post to sound so totalitarian. Phone issues.