Potential Coaching Staff System

[Arty23]

First off I just want to clarify that I'm not writing this as a "Hey SCEA" thread because I know those are banned. I'm more looking to see what other players think of the system and if they have any suggestions themselves. I've always had an abnormal obsession with coaching staff changes in real life and have been hoping for the last couple years that The Show would revamp the way their coaches work to include minor league coaches and full major league staffs, so I was thinking about how that would work and I think I came up with a pretty good idea.

To begin I would add the bench, bullpen, and "seventh" coach that teams employ. Right now each of the coaches has an effect on four attributes in their subsection of the game ranging from +3 to -3. I would like to see a system where each coach has an effect on every attribute of their area of specialization even if it is a zero. Also with adding the "new" coaches, essentially every area has an "understudy" coach of sorts:

Manger - Bench Coach (All attributes)
Pitching Coach - Bullpen Coach (Con, Velo, Mov, Stam, Cltch, H, K, HR, BB)
Hitting Coach - Asst. Hitting Coach (Con, Pow, Bunt, Cltch, Vis, and Disc)
3B Coach - 1B Coach (BR, Arm, Def, Range, and Dur)

With this set-up, I'd like to see the Manager, pitching, hitting, and 3B coaches have a range of +2 to -2 for each of their attributes and the Bench coach, bullpen coach, asst. hitting coach, and 1B coach a range of +1 to -1. So those coaches would have 1/2 the effect as the "main" coaches. This would also make promoting coaches more realistic. I'd also like to see the rating change dynamically, kind of like potential. So if a team has a great couple years (like say how STL has been under Matheny) he would get a decent bump and be considered more of a top-notch manager. Same thing would happen if a team pitched well or hit well for a while.

In the minors I think it would be cool to utilize the coordinator positions. Have a field, hitting, pitching, infield, outfield, and catching coordinator that is hired. Each of these coordinators would have a similar effect (+2 to -2) as the MLB staff, but this would only affect the minor league players. This would also give us an option to "promote from within" during the season if we fire a coach.

Just curious what you guys think and if you have any thoughts yourself?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

...

Just curious what you guys think and if you have any thoughts yourself?

A well thought out proposal for sure, but I have trouble with coaches having an effect on player attributes...or at least a substantial one...in the first place. I just think that's a bit artificial and I don't like how hiring a new manager/coach has nothing to do with strategy/fit and is only about mindlessly finding the ones with the most green and least red. And if you have 6 or 7 coaches, all those +2's and +1's can really add up to inflate things.

That said, I'm not really sure of a better way to preference "better" managers and disadvantage poor managers. I guess I'm mostly ok with coaches being more cosmetic (just having them in there and the ability to edit them, but them not having a direct effect on attributes).

One way to handle more subtle effects is to institute a morale system like there has been in NBA2K for some time where players have "roles" and their attitudes are based on that (see Amaro's recent comments on Chase Utley for how to sour a relationship). Maybe having a good manager could make certain players accept roles they normally wouldn't so the effect would be a bit more indirect. Maybe they could add a team chemistry element also like in NBA2K that the manager/staff has some effect on. Having good team 'chemistry' could lead to a miniscule boost in the timing window for hitting or in controlling pitches. Maybe errors could be reduced by a subtle rate. The key to this is subtle and nothing cheesy or too noticeable

Another alternative is your manager can affect how easy/difficult it is to sign a FA (or the amount they sign for...slightly)...again like in NBA2K (seeing a pattern here? )...or how many XP points you get per game. The choice of manager could also have a more indirect influence by influencing the length/depth of hot/cold streaks.

Moreover, an idea that would go great with a "boom or bust progression system" --if one were to be added, that is-- is your coaching staff could have a specific effect on guys blossoming vs busting out. So you'd have teams like the Cardinals who turn every prospect to gold (and you'd have, say, a 25% greater shot that one random prospect will absolutely break out) and teams like Seattle that can't do anything with developing position players (and you'd have, say, a 25% greater shot that one of your stud prospects is actually a dud).

I think the best system would be so imperceptible to almost not be noticed and maybe there would be no effect at all most of the time. Even the best managers are just a smidge over .500 usually.

[rjackson]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

Interesting thread. There could definitely be improvements but this is also raising the question of how much coaches really effect a game and we don't know for certain how the current system works (do all coaches affect all players?). I could definitely see moments where pitches are being tipped or catching something in a pitcher to get a great jump on a steal attempt (not varying checking runner on second/heel comes up different as examples). There are periods where chemistry seems to be plausible like the last Red Sox World Series team (were they just a collection of patient hitters or influenced each other that way?). I could see piling up a bunch of +2 vision/discipline coaches and emulating that to a degree currently.


I guess I'm saying that the current system gives the coaches all their own strengths and weaknesses but you could hire them all over the place - you could hire Matheny as a hitting coach for instance.


Then there are the other arguments that WTNY brought up - a Manager may only really win/lose 2 more games than with a different Manager, but there are relationships in free agency like Lester's previous relationship with Cubbie brass and Maddon being there to have fun/be creative that had an influence...how do you program this stuff into a game?

[TheWarmWind]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

I would like to see some changes to the coaching system, but there are inherent problems with changing it. It's tough to balance the immersion factor of diving into the coaching system while still making it fun and accessible to most players. Then there is also the issue of year to year saves: if you drastically alter the coaching system, how does that effect a save that is being carried over from last year? If I'm mid-season when I carry over, will I suddenly have to hire a bunch of new coaches, or will my current ones work entirely differently?

I personally would love to have coaches that develop and can be "farmed" the same way a player can. I would also love it if key alumni from my team could be hired "into the system" in order to start their coaching development. It would be really cool to see some sort of chemistry between coaches and players, especially if it was based on real life personality assessments (Red, Yellow, Green, Blue). I just see a lot of issues with upgrading all of that. I can also see how that could alienate players who aren't as into the minutia of this game as I am.

[johntait1]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

In my MLB 2K8 game players will want to play with coaches that fit their style and take slight discounts to play with coaches they like. I think it would be cool if this is implemented in the Show, where coaches influence player morale and where free agents want to sign and if players want to resign with the team. Just my thoughts though.

[tessl]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

First off I just want to clarify that I'm not writing this as a "Hey SCEA" thread because I know those are banned. I'm more looking to see what other players think of the system and if they have any suggestions themselves. I've always had an abnormal obsession with coaching staff changes in real life and have been hoping for the last couple years that The Show would revamp the way their coaches work to include minor league coaches and full major league staffs, so I was thinking about how that would work and I think I came up with a pretty good idea.

To begin I would add the bench, bullpen, and "seventh" coach that teams employ. Right now each of the coaches has an effect on four attributes in their subsection of the game ranging from +3 to -3. I would like to see a system where each coach has an effect on every attribute of their area of specialization even if it is a zero. Also with adding the "new" coaches, essentially every area has an "understudy" coach of sorts:

Manger - Bench Coach (All attributes)
Pitching Coach - Bullpen Coach (Con, Velo, Mov, Stam, Cltch, H, K, HR, BB)
Hitting Coach - Asst. Hitting Coach (Con, Pow, Bunt, Cltch, Vis, and Disc)
3B Coach - 1B Coach (BR, Arm, Def, Range, and Dur)

With this set-up, I'd like to see the Manager, pitching, hitting, and 3B coaches have a range of +2 to -2 for each of their attributes and the Bench coach, bullpen coach, asst. hitting coach, and 1B coach a range of +1 to -1. So those coaches would have 1/2 the effect as the "main" coaches. This would also make promoting coaches more realistic. I'd also like to see the rating change dynamically, kind of like potential. So if a team has a great couple years (like say how STL has been under Matheny) he would get a decent bump and be considered more of a top-notch manager. Same thing would happen if a team pitched well or hit well for a while.

In the minors I think it would be cool to utilize the coordinator positions. Have a field, hitting, pitching, infield, outfield, and catching coordinator that is hired. Each of these coordinators would have a similar effect (+2 to -2) as the MLB staff, but this would only affect the minor league players. This would also give us an option to "promote from within" during the season if we fire a coach.

Just curious what you guys think and if you have any thoughts yourself?

I don't think they need more coaches. I've also thought about the coaches and managers having dynamic ratings but it would have to be very, very, very slow otherwise the coaching staff would overwhelm the attributes of the players and dominate the game.

Given what has happened with changes to progression and 30 team control ruining carry over saves, I prefer for them to just leave it the way it is because it could be poorly implemented and make the game worse.

[towncryer3921]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

I would like to see them add retired players to the coaching pool.

[tessl]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

I would like to see them add retired players to the coaching pool.

Licensing prevents that from happening. Play a game in Busch Stadium and look at the pictures on the wall. IRL they are retired players. In the game they are current Cardinals. SCEA doesn't have rights to the retired players.

[Getty51]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

Licensing prevents that from happening. Play a game in Busch Stadium and look at the pictures on the wall. IRL they are retired players. In the game they are current Cardinals. SCEA doesn't have rights to the retired players.

Could be implying retired players from the game itself. Say after year 1 that someone like Carlos Beltran retires... He could be put in the coaching pool. There would obviously be some sort of need for a system that would choose which players were eligible to be coaches which would take time. Maybe an awareness rating or something.

I believe there was a version of Madden that did this as far back as PS2 when they also had the Expansion draft. That may actually go down as the most indepth hiring/firing drafting/offseason game that I can remember.

[tessl]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

Could be implying retired players from the game itself. Say after year 1 that someone like Carlos Beltran retires... He could be put in the coaching pool. There would obviously be some sort of need for a system that would choose which players were eligible to be coaches which would take time. Maybe an awareness rating or something.

I believe there was a version of Madden that did this as far back as PS2 when they also had the Expansion draft. That may actually go down as the most indepth hiring/firing drafting/offseason game that I can remember.

That would be plausible but every year there are dozens of players on the "retired" list in the game - that would be a lot of coaches. Unfortunately every time they change something I get worried something else will be broken.

I don't disagree with some of the ideas but implementation is what I worry about.

People want a change to progression, now progression is messed up. People wanted 30 team control, now carry over saves are messed up.

[cmutat17]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

In my MLB 2K8 game players will want to play with coaches that fit their style and take slight discounts to play with coaches they like. I think it would be cool if this is implemented in the Show, where coaches influence player morale and where free agents want to sign and if players want to resign with the team. Just my thoughts though.

I agree with you. MLB 2K7 and 2K8 had a great system (until they changed it).

[seymmj6]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

I really like the idea of having certain retired players becoming coaches. You could limit the amount of retired player to coaches by setting statistical benchmarks. For example, if a player reaches 2500 hits, or 400 home runs, or 150 wins. That way, only the better players would be eligible to become coaches.

Also, if they did add this then it would probably be beneficial to add some coaching positions. Doesn't have to be anything crazy but instead of "Farm Director" maybe you split that into Minors Hitting Director and Minors Pitching Director.

Third, the ratings system should be simplified. Just by adding a certain coach shouldn't make all your players 3 points faster. Maybe just having a certain skill set: improve hitting or pitching, shapes younger teams, works better with more mature teams, etc.

[tessl]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

I really like the idea of having certain retired players becoming coaches. You could limit the amount of retired player to coaches by setting statistical benchmarks. For example, if a player reaches 2500 hits, or 400 home runs, or 150 wins. That way, only the better players would be eligible to become coaches.

Also, if they did add this then it would probably be beneficial to add some coaching positions. Doesn't have to be anything crazy but instead of "Farm Director" maybe you split that into Minors Hitting Director and Minors Pitching Director.

Third, the ratings system should be simplified. Just by adding a certain coach shouldn't make all your players 3 points faster. Maybe just having a certain skill set: improve hitting or pitching, shapes younger teams, works better with more mature teams, etc.

I understand what you are saying but there aren't many coaches who have a +3 in one category without a minus somewhere else so it tends to balance itself.

The entire training system is arbitrary and contrived but I'm not against it because I can't think of a better way to do it. The idea of training a guy to be faster but being unable to multi task and make him a better hitter or fielder at the same time isn't realistic but I'm not complaining because the game isn't broken. Same with coaches. In attempting to "fix" it they could make it worse.

I haven't simmed years in advance but if what others are reporting is accurate then the new progression system is a far bigger issue than anything else.

[Arty23]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

Yea, my thought with this system wouldn't be to have substantial improvements contrived out of the coaches. I would think an average coach in the game would have a 0 net impact on the players. Whereas a good coach would have more + attributes than - attributes.

[towncryer3921]

Re: Potential Coaching Staff System

That would be plausible but every year there are dozens of players on the "retired" list in the game - that would be a lot of coaches. Unfortunately every time they change something I get worried something else will be broken.

I don't disagree with some of the ideas but implementation is what I worry about.

People want a change to progression, now progression is messed up. People wanted 30 team control, now carry over saves are messed up.

I was referring to players that retire in the game.

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