Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

[roadman]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

When people talk about nano-blitzes, those come from an exploit of the AI offensive line blocking logic and mechanics. In Madden, the AI knows who is supposed to be rushing the passer and from where so you can't set up stock blitzes with any consistency. However, if you user rush with a defender who was supposed to drop into zone, then the AI freaks out because it wasn't expecting that. Also, telling the Defensive Tackles to spy or contain and so forth screws up the guards and centers, opening up lanes for Linebackers, who "weren't supposed to be blitzing," to shoot through unblocked. Instead, if there were dynamic pass protections schemes as part of the play design, and offensive linemen weren't tethered to the defensive play call, then the experience would be far more authentic and more difficult/less likely to exploit... at least in any unrealistic manner. When pressed on this issue, they responded by saying how time consuming and difficult such a task would be to undertake and it just wasn't "worth it." So, we are stuck with what we have.

Just curious PG, was that when you were there in the Ian days or with Rex?

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

Just curious PG, was that when you were there in the Ian days or with Rex?

It was with Ian, but this is a legacy issue. It is rooted in the core mechanics of the game. I was told it would take a complete overhaul of the game to change this, and they didn't see it as a big enough problem to fix as the game works well enough as is. Also, they were afraid an overhaul would break other parts of the game that they can't anticipate.

Oh well.

[Number999]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

It was with Ian, but this is a legacy issue. It is rooted in the core mechanics of the game. I was told it would take a complete overhaul of the game to change this, and they didn't see it as a big enough problem to fix as the game works well enough as is. Also, they were afraid an overhaul would break other parts of the game that they can't anticipate.

Oh well.

I know you deleted your post but damn man... you got me kinda down on Madden moving forward. I know we'll see with the changes going ahead but it's a shame not even the guys dedicated towards making a sim-focused game are even being torn down.

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

Look, Madden keeps getting better. I think the current versions of the game might be the best versions of Madden they ave ever made. I miss some old features, but that isn't the point.

On the other hand, if you are waiting for and expecting a more realistic football experience with authentic offensive and defensive line play, true progressive route running based on the coverage, and a more authentic play calling system... then don't hold your breath.

=================

Spoiler

Off topic personal story semi-related that I feel like sharing but don't feel that starting a whole topic for is the right thing to do. I kinda felt like a lot of you here at OS have become a sub family with me over the last eight years or so. Skip if you aren't interested:

For me, after high school, Madden was where I got my football fix. It became my little obsession. Since moving to Lima, Peru in 2011, that obsession has died out and been replaced by coaching real football.

For anyone interested, check out the following video that I will put in spoiler tags, as it is off topic:

Spoiler

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UjUIknYnruI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

*This video takes place between March 2012 until June 30th 2015.
*We started with a young man who played tackle football in Holland who helps me coach and a handful of people who had never played football before.
*We raised money and bought some pads. The team grew.
*We eventually got soccer pull over jerseys so we would at least look like a team.
*@0:14 We met an expat church group who was playing flag football for fun once a month at a local park. We got some yellow flags and organized our first game. We won.
*@0:47 The church group got some blue shirts and played us a few more times, though only one other game was filmed.
*@1:55 Our group grew large enough that we were able to split off into two teams. Also, the second team was comprised of people who lived in another part of the city. Eventually that team got black uniforms, which you see @2:13. They are led by a guy from the very first picture. The church group also stopped playing.
*@3:00 Over time more teams were started and some more splits were made. That led to the flag football tournament, which we won. Some of those teams eventually folded back into themselves
*@3:35 One of the teams that did not participate in the Flag event were the Aguilas (Eagles). After learning that football was being played in Peru, some Mexican hot head who used to play in Mexico though that he would be a big man and show everyone how football was "really played." He formed his tackle team and refused to play flag as that wasn't "real football." Once we got more pads and some helmets, we visited them and kicked their butts, scoring every time we had the ball with only one hour to play on the field and shutting them out.
@4:31 Our "rivals" got equipment too and our first tackle match was scheduled. Only portions of that game were filmed by random girlfriends of players. Our second tackle game.
@5:20 A Rematch with the Eagles. They improved a lot after going to Mexico to train and participate in an international event. We lost a lot of our core players at that time and have been rebuilding since. We had a rookie QB for that game and left a lot of points on the field because of it. Regardless, our defense came through with two clutch forced fumble scores.
@5:51 Our second QB returned from his time abroad and at the end of June we had our third game with the Eagles.

You can really see the progression and evolution of our team(s). For those wondering where I have been and what I have been up to instead of posting in the Madden forums here at OS, this is your answer.

I honestly recommend to anyone who uses Madden as your outlet for football... think about getting involved in real football any way you can. A volunteer youth league, playing flag football on weekends, something. It is so much more fulfilling. I honestly never thought I would play football again after high school.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

What is true progressive route running?

[PatsSB2015]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

Penalties have long not been a big part of the Madden NFL experience. This year, EA is hoping to change that legacy, which you can read fully fleshed out on their new blog:


What This Means: Every player is going to get a penalty trait based on real-world NFL data, which will determine how likely they are to commit a penalty. Also, how you play the game will determine how many penalties are called as well. A pressing cornerback is used as an example, where your chances of seeing a defensive holding penalty are higher than if he is playing loose.

The penalty sliders also are getting a makeover, with the default setting based on NFL penalty averages over the last five seasons, which will make penalty type and frequency as authentic as possible, so EA says.

Penalties which got the updated treatment include: Encroachment, False Start, Offensive Holding, Facemask, Defensive Pass Interference, Illegal Block in the Back, Neutral Zone Infraction, Defensive Holding, Illegal Forward Pass, Illegal Touching, Delay of Game, Kick Catch Interference Running into the Kicker, Unnecessary Roughness and Roughing the Passer.

What do you think of the potentially improved penalties?

As long as it's accurate, I think that's pretty cool.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

I think this is awesome - about time too!!


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[SolidSquid]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

What is true progressive route running?

Basically 2 things. Option routes where wr's read the defense and run the corresponding route. For example if he reads cover 2 he runs a post but if it's cover 3 he runs an out.(these are in the game now but are kinda unreliable). Secondly would be making slight route alterations based on what the defense does. So say a guy is supposed to run a 10 yard curl, but at the snap the cb starts back pedaling(cover 3) you can now break the route off sooner to have a better chance to get the ball in space.

[JOS1181]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

Basically 2 things. Option routes where wr's read the defense and run the corresponding route. For example if he reads cover 2 he runs a post but if it's cover 3 he runs an out.(these are in the game now but are kinda unreliable). Secondly would be making slight route alterations based on what the defense does. So say a guy is supposed to run a 10 yard curl, but at the snap the cb starts back pedaling(cover 3) you can now break the route off sooner to have a better chance to get the ball in space.

I think that would go a long way to getting completion percentages closer to the real world even for the CPU. Add in a timing aspect and it would be even better.

To bad about offsetting penalties not being in.. I really wish they would have went all the way on penalties. I also wonder if late hits are now part of the game? Late hit OB / Roughing the Passer etc.

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

What is true progressive route running?

Basically 2 things. Option routes where wr's read the defense and run the corresponding route. For example if he reads cover 2 he runs a post but if it's cover 3 he runs an out.(these are in the game now but are kinda unreliable). Secondly would be making slight route alterations based on what the defense does. So say a guy is supposed to run a 10 yard curl, but at the snap the cb starts back pedaling(cover 3) you can now break the route off sooner to have a better chance to get the ball in space.

Yes. In a nut shell, that.

I have been writing blogs outside of Operation Sports about the Bill Walsh West Coast Offense, and one of them was all about WR Routes.

WCO Route Tree & Auxiliary Tree

Spoiler

The following links are the detailed coaching points on how to run specific routes against a variety of coverages and looks:
Go - Different from the Stick route
Come Back
Hook - Different from the Curl route.
Deep Post
Corner
Circle Out
In - Different from the Center route.
Slant
Quick Out
Out


I don't expect that level of depth any time soon, if ever, but I do want to focus on a few of those charts in particular:

Notice how the Deep Post changes to a Go route against "Nose" & "Bump Trail" coverage. Against "Bracket" coverage the post is cut off and turned into something that resembles a deep "slant and go" of sorts.

Notice how the Cricle Out (often called the C routes in Madden) can adjust to a Deep Out, or a form of Deep Come Back based on the coverage.

Notice how the Quick Out can turn into a fade against Cleo (Cloud) and and tight bump (man or zone) coverages.

There are some of these kinds of "option routes" in Madden, and they have been a part of the game since Madden 2005. As was said earlier, they are unreliable, though I think some of that can be "blamed" on the route running rating. EA claims that the route running rating (formerly awareness) had an impact on the decision making of the receiver in question. This goes back to the offensive and defensive play calls being tied together internally. The Offensive line knows who is supposed to blitz and from where. The DBs know the routes the receivers are running, which is why they can jump routes before the WR even starts his break at times, and how the AI know which option route is the "right choice" against a specific coverage. Supposedly, the Route Running Rating was supposed to be the "X-factor dice roll/random chance" of making the wrong choice. that is all well and good to me. I just wish it would have been expanded upon in the last 11 years.

The only routes I am aware of that take advantage of this are some Curl-to-Quick In/Quick Out options by the TE, a Post-to-Out option on "Falcon Post," and the Deep Comeback on "Colts Divide/Levels." There might be a few more, but not many. Certainly not on nearly every passing play in the game like it "should be" for pretty much every receiver.

I understand how that might be too overwhelming for new/casual players... but we are talking about NFL receivers who usually make the right choices far more often than not, and on Rookie/Pro difficulty, EA can set the ratio of "correct/incorrect" decision making to like 95% or what ever.

If you call "Raven Quick Outs" from ACE, then both X & Y are running quick outs while your two TEs are running curls. If the defense is a cover 2 man/zone press, you could audible out of it, or the game can have the receivers adjust to the route correctly and try to beat their man. Even a new/casual player is going to want to force a throw into that coverage and end up with a pick 6.

You see... that is the big deal to me. These "option routes" actually help new/casual players by getting their receivers open more consistently. Instead of the receiver just running into coverage, they should read the coverage, adjust and work to get open. So much of what I advocate in terms of representing a recreating football would actually HELP the casual/new player in my opinion.

*Nano blitzes would, in theory stop existing because linemen would be block their area instead of getting confused and letting players run right passed them.

*Normal overload blitzes would work instead of having a backside guard or tackle swing all the way around to block an OLB.

*Proper Pass protection schemes would account for those over load blitzes and the backs would pick them up instead of going on the designated routes - Imagine if almost all HB/FB routes were blue now with the exception of a few plays like screens and Texas, or the few plays that have the TE/FB block, so the TE would have a blue route instead of the HB.

*What if the agility/acceleration/man coverage/route running ratings would have more of an impact on the game, rather than the DBs just mirroring routes.

*What if the Alex Gibbs zone blocking rules applied?

*What if they brought back the classic PS2 era Madden trainer "football 101" feature where John Madden, or someone actually taught you core football plays? When I was a teenager I used to log hours upon hours in that thing. I think it was Madden 2002, 2003 and maybe 2004.

Yes, there was a time when EA actively tried to teach you how to be better at football and their video game... and for the most part it worked. They would hold your hand and take you through the baby steps. This is different than the "mini camp" drills and games. There was a mode when Madden would tell you the play, the objective of the play, then an animation showed what it was supposed to look like, and finally asked you to repeat it.

I know this isn't directly related to the topic on hand, but in terms of improving the game... this is 2015 (Madden 16) and this is stuff I was posting about before Madden 10 came out. Most of it is in the game in one way or another but needs improvement, or was in the game and removed for an unknown reason.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

What if they brought back the classic PS2 era Madden trainer "football 101" feature where John Madden, or someone actually taught you core football plays? When I was a teenager I used to log hours upon hours in that thing. I think it was Madden 2002, 2003 and maybe 2004.

Yes, there was a time when EA actively tried to teach you how to be better at football and their video game... and for the most part it worked. They would hold your hand and take you through the baby steps. This is different than the "mini camp" drills and games. There was a mode when Madden would tell you the play, the objective of the play, then an animation showed what it was supposed to look like, and finally asked you to repeat it.

They did this already. Skills Trainer introduced the instruction of real-life football passing and coverage concepts in Madden NFL 15, and it's handled completely differently and much more thoroughly than the PS2 games ever did it.

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

They did this already. Skills Trainer introduced the instruction of real-life football passing and coverage concepts in Madden NFL 15, and it's handled completely differently and much more thoroughly than the PS2 games ever did it.

oh, wow. that is great. Is that on the 360 version of the game? I don't have an Xbox 1 or PS4. I hope it will be in Madden 16. I'd like to get a new copy when it comes out.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

Okay, I wasn't clear on the fact that i know what progressive route running is, I was asking what PGaither84 thought it meant in regards to MAdden...As I see it, MAdden allows your to hot route which would be identifying the coverage and adjust routes...

I am to assume PGaither84 means he wants the WR's to do the route change automatically? We can hot route to check/release in M15, so that is good, but primitive.

I would like more options in routes to change to...I prefer more control as opposed to just making everything automatic and I just watch..

The OL and DL interactions and assignments and adjustments need to be automatic, based on football fundamentals, because they are currently not working completely as they should, and the OL needs to be made automatic, more importantly, in it's assignments and adjustments because a user cannot control them...

Ratings need to matter more - and I hate the mirroring by defenders...

[badman33462]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

I think that would go a long way to getting completion percentages closer to the real world even for the CPU. Add in a timing aspect and it would be even better.

To bad about offsetting penalties not being in.. I really wish they would have went all the way on penalties. I also wonder if late hits are now part of the game? Late hit OB / Roughing the Passer etc.

Late hits out of bounds are in the game this year. I've gotten called for them a few times

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16: Penalties Are Finally Going to Be a Thing

oh, wow. that is great. Is that on the 360 version of the game? I don't have an Xbox 1 or PS4. I hope it will be in Madden 16. I'd like to get a new copy when it comes out.

I would guess "yes", but I no longer have an XBOX 360 so I can't answer that definitively.

Skills Trainer is returning to Madden NFL 16 and it's been expanded upon.