Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

[sir psycho]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes, his attributes say what he should be as a player, but the overall should reflect those numbers. The overall is important in Madden because of CPU player management. I don't see how you could intelligently make a trade with the CPU if there was no overall. I think re-tooling the calculations is necessary, but not getting rid of it all together.

I asked you if Tom Brady would be a top 5 QB if Madden came out today, and you said idk. That doesn't make any sense to me. You and I both know (I hope) that Tom Brady is one of the best in the game. I don't care if he's suspended a few games. It's not like he just magically got worse at playing football. So when you present your top 5 QB's and leave Tom Brady out because of a suspension, it really doesn't make much sense in the Madden world. Or the real world for that matter.

Nobody is saying he magically got worse at playing football. The "top 5" that is being discussed is based purely on the OVR rating, which as Dan said, isn't a reflection of his ability. His attributes(which are a reflection of his abilities) haven't gotten worse and he will still perform as a top QB. His OVR will take a hit from the suspension, because that's the way these ratings work, but in no way does it effect how good he is or how he will perform.

Or I could be totally misunderstanding everything and you can ignore my post.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes, his attributes say what he should be as a player, but the overall should reflect those numbers. The overall is important in Madden because of CPU player management. I don't see how you could intelligently make a trade with the CPU if there was no overall. I think re-tooling the calculations is necessary, but not getting rid of it all together.

I asked you if Tom Brady would be a top 5 QB if Madden came out today, and you said idk. That doesn't make any sense to me. You and I both know (I hope) that Tom Brady is one of the best in the game. I don't care if he's suspended a few games. It's not like he just magically got worse at playing football. So when you present your top 5 QB's and leave Tom Brady out because of a suspension, it really doesn't make much sense in the Madden world. Or the real world for that matter.

According to the scouting grades, whom I believe to be FAR MORE ACCURATE than those nonsensical Madden OVR calculations. Have you ever seen what attributes count and which ones don't for each position? According to EA the CTH ability of a CB doesn't even matter in calculating how good on an overall scale a CB is. THAT is insane.

The attributes should be based on measurable abilities, not the OVR. Aside from telling the CPU what to do, they are completely useless. The OVR in Madden needs to be readjusted.

What I did say was that if we went PURELY by OVR, Brady would not be in the top 5 because of his suspension. The scouting grades take into account injuries and suspensions. That doesn't mean that the values of his attributes dropped, but his overall ability TO PLAY dropped. Why? Because if you attempted to trade for him to start week 1, as it stands right now, he wouldn't be able to because of his suspension.

It is the same scenario with rookies who smoke dope prior to the combine. Do they become worse players because they will likely be suspended or have baggage? Likely not. However, because it will affect their ability to play, you will see many teams drop the overall value, not their attributes, to reflect the possibility that they may be a headache to manage. Some of those guys pan out, and some flame out.

All the scouting grade OVR is reflecting is that Brady is not as valuable RIGHT NOW, TODAY, because of his suspension. If I was handing the OVR for EA, I would place such holds (and those due to injury) into the OVR calculation. Now, once he gets cleared to play again (literally the day after the suspension is over) the hold will be removed, and he will likely be the top rated QB again (as I have currently on the website: http://www.fbgratings.com/members/ratings.php?genpos=QB)

I totally get that some people don't get this, but that is how scouts do it. All I am doing is sending the message. The bottom line is that Brady's abilities put him at around a 98 OVR (number one QB in the league), but the suspension hold just drops his overall value a bit. Once the hold is removed, his overall rating will go back up and will only reflect the product of his attributes. The same thing happens when players get hurt in this system. Due to the unavailability of the player to play, the OVR grade is dropped until they are available to play again. Then, the hold is removed and the OVR grade reflects just the attributes.

This isn't hard, and it is more true to how scouts do it that what you, EA, and other gamers are used to.

Do you want a more accurate game or not?

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

Nobody is saying he magically got worse at playing football. The "top 5" that is being discussed is based purely on the OVR rating, which as Dan said, isn't a reflection of his ability. His attributes(which are a reflection of his abilities) haven't gotten worse and he will still perform as a top QB. His OVR will take a hit from the suspension, because that's the way these ratings work, but in no way does it effect how good he is or how he will perform.

Or I could be totally misunderstanding everything and you can ignore my post.

You are totally correct. It is just a hold on the OVR. Like I expressed earlier as a simple equation:

OVR Grade (scouting) = Sum of abilities - Holds

If the holds are zero, then the OVR is simply the sum of the abilities. The abilities DO NOT CHANGE. Brady, or anyone else for that matter, will play the exact same way with or without the holds applied to the OVR score. That is how the scouts do it, so that is how I do it.

Do you want a more accurate game or not when it comes to rating players?

[Sheba2011]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

If the season had ended after just half a season, you would have thought Peyton was top 3 and Brady was hitting the wall. The NFL season is very fluid.


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After half a season last year Brady had 18 TD's against 2 int's and only had two games where he had a QBR below 90. Both of those int's came against KC, his worst game. If that is "hitting the wall" you have some lofty standards for a QB.

[jshake8]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

According to the scouting grades, whom I believe to be FAR MORE ACCURATE than those nonsensical Madden OVR calculations. Have you ever seen what attributes count and which ones don't for each position? According to EA the CTH ability of a CB doesn't even matter in calculating how good on an overall scale a CB is. THAT is insane.

The attributes should be based on measurable abilities, not the OVR. Aside from telling the CPU what to do, they are completely useless. The OVR in Madden needs to be readjusted.

What I did say was that if we went PURELY by OVR, Brady would not be in the top 5 because of his suspension. The scouting grades take into account injuries and suspensions. That doesn't mean that the values of his attributes dropped, but his overall ability TO PLAY dropped. Why? Because if you attempted to trade for him to start week 1, as it stands right now, he wouldn't be able to because of his suspension.

It is the same scenario with rookies who smoke dope prior to the combine. Do they become worse players because they will likely be suspended or have baggage? Likely not. However, because it will affect their ability to play, you will see many teams drop the overall value, not their attributes, to reflect the possibility that they may be a headache to manage. Some of those guys pan out, and some flame out.

All the scouting grade OVR is reflecting is that Brady is not as valuable RIGHT NOW, TODAY, because of his suspension. If I was handing the OVR for EA, I would place such holds (and those due to injury) into the OVR calculation. Now, once he gets cleared to play again (literally the day after the suspension is over) the hold will be removed, and he will likely be the top rated QB again (as I have currently on the website: http://www.fbgratings.com/members/ratings.php?genpos=QB)

I totally get that some people don't get this, but that is how scouts do it. All I am doing is sending the message. The bottom line is that Brady's abilities put him at around a 98 OVR (number one QB in the league), but the suspension hold just drops his overall value a bit. Once the hold is removed, his overall rating will go back up and will only reflect the product of his attributes. The same thing happens when players get hurt in this system. Due to the unavailability of the player to play, the OVR grade is dropped until they are available to play again. Then, the hold is removed and the OVR grade reflects just the attributes.

This isn't hard, and it is more true to how scouts do it that what you, EA, and other gamers are used to.

Do you want a more accurate game or not?

What you're describing makes perfect sense in the real world. It's great logic backed by data.

In the Madden world? Not so much. When the game comes out, if Brady is rated in the 70's overall, I could trade a 2nd round draft pick for him.

You're using the overall as a production grade, and that's an over simplification. It does more than that. It has many uses in the game, and is important. If Tom Brady is an 97 rated QB, he should be 97 rated QB whether he's allowed to play the first few games or not. That overall should reflect his abilities, not his availability. They should be 2 completely different things.

In order to implement what you're suggesting, they would need to change A LOT of things in Madden. Now, honestly, they do need to change a lot, but we need to have realistic expectations here.

And fwiw, this is coming from someone who hates how they've rated players, and hates the way the overall is calculated. I really like what you're trying to achieve, but I don't agree with this specific example. I don't think overall, value, and production should be rounded into one number.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

After half a season last year Brady had 18 TD's against 2 int's and only had two games where he had a QBR below 90. Both of those int's came against KC, his worst game. If that is "hitting the wall" you have some lofty standards for a QB.

Alright relax lol. My point was that play fluctuates throughout the NFL season. Brady didn't look the same the first 4 games or so and I believe the same sort of thing happened the year before. Peyton was great and then fell apart relatively speaking down the stretch as he dealt with his injuries.

I understand being more skeptical about Peyton given his injuries and the way he looked by the end of the year but he still had a great year overall and could easily do the same again.


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[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

What you're describing makes perfect sense in the real world. It's great logic backed by data.

In the Madden world? Not so much. When the game comes out, if Brady is rated in the 70's overall, I could trade a 2nd round draft pick for him.

You're using the overall as a production grade, and that's an over simplification. It does more than that. It has many uses in the game, and is important. If Tom Brady is an 97 rated QB, he should be 97 rated QB whether he's allowed to play the first few games or not. That overall should reflect his abilities, not his availability. They should be 2 completely different things.

In order to implement what you're suggesting, they would need to change A LOT of things in Madden. Now, honestly, they do need to change a lot, but we need to have realistic expectations here.

And fwiw, this is coming from someone who hates how they've rated players, and hates the way the overall is calculated. I really like what you're trying to achieve, but I don't agree with this specific example. I don't think overall, value, and production should be rounded into one number.

What needs to happen, and you can bet I would push for if they hire me, is very complex. It would take hours to decipher and flush out entirely. I want to mimic real life when it comes to rating players. I have done that with FBG. A simple way around the logic is to make the CPU determine value based upon the attribute product alone under the hood. That isn't that hard to do, IMO. Make the logic based on the attribute product section of that equation alone. Problem solved. Now when you realize that it will take more than a 2nd rounder to get a guy that is essentially a 98 OVR, you have added some risk on the user's behalf to pursue said prospect. If I see a player with a 72 OVR and it is taking 3 first rounders to get him, I know that something is holding him back. Look at his hold value and you see he is under suspension. Now, I have to risk trading for a guy who won't be 100% available.

That is what we want. That is what GMs do. Stop trying to make everything so darn cut and dry with one number. That is why I favor getting rid of the ability to see the OVR rating. Leave that under the hood. If you have a player who is under suspension, it SHOULD be easier to acquire him, especially if the value is right. Keep this in mind, though, the average player is rated about 45 in the database. A QB with a rating of 72 is pro-bowl caliber. It would take more than a 2nd rounder to get him in the first place if the proper trade logic is in place. No doubt it needs to be reworked first, but it could work out just fine.

To me, a players value SHOULD reflect his ability AND availability. How useful is a player who is a 99 overall but is suspended indefinitely? How valuable is a player who is a 26 overall and is fully available. How about a 26 overall AND suspended indefinitely? Injured even? It DOES matter.

Like I said before, if the attributes are the same regardless, then why not include it? Again, how accurate of a game do we want here?

[The JareBear]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

Whether people agree with your ratings or not I hope everyone appreciates your passion, Dan. You clearly put a lot of time into this.

Your transparency and willingness to calmly and constructively discuss criticism or praise towards your system is refreshing. If you were hired by Tiburon, that it by itself would be instant improvement, not to mention the reality based ratings you would bring.

[Sheba2011]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

Alright relax lol. My point was that play fluctuates throughout the NFL season. Brady didn't look the same the first 4 games or so and I believe the same sort of thing happened the year before. Peyton was great and then fell apart relatively speaking down the stretch as he dealt with his injuries.

I understand being more skeptical about Peyton given his injuries and the way he looked by the end of the year but he still had a great year overall and could easily do the same again.


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Theoretically anyone can have a good year but unless Peyton finds the fountain of youth I dont see it happening. He looked terrible at the end of last season, he looked like a 39 year old QB. Nothing against him it happens to all the greats. And with a very tough schedule this year I see it ending the same way. Denvers best shot was 2013 and they blew it.

[The JareBear]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

Theoretically anyone can have a good year but unless Peyton finds the fountain of youth I dont see it happening. He looked terrible at the end of last season, he looked like a 39 year old QB. Nothing against him it happens to all the greats. And with a very tough schedule this year I see it ending the same way. Denvers best shot was 2013 and they blew it.

Agreed.

All people need to do is look at every single loss the Broncos have had during Mannings tenure. Admittedly, and to his credit, there aren't that many, and that's why it's easy for me to remember them all, but they all look look the same. People thought that Sesttle exposed something in the SB, but it had already been exposed. Every defense that has beaten Manning the last three years did the same thing. They don't worry about the deep ball. They sit in the middle-intermediate zones in front of Manning and dare him to throw deep. Guys like Rodgers or Ben can have options 1, 2, and 3 break down, create time with their legs, improvise and throw a strike 50+ yards downfield on the fly. Manning can't do that. Manning can only throw deep if he's decided that's what he's looking to pre-snap and get everything into it. He just struggles to push the ball downfield, plain and simple. A lot of times he throws an ugly pass that DT or Sanders just make a play on and do the rest of the work.

Honestly, the ratings themselves not be accurate but the order is fine with me. It's too bad that a Mannings intangibles won't help me from a user controlled perspective, but I will try my best to get whatever I can from him

[jshake8]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

What needs to happen, and you can bet I would push for if they hire me, is very complex. It would take hours to decipher and flush out entirely. I want to mimic real life when it comes to rating players. I have done that with FBG. A simple way around the logic is to make the CPU determine value based upon the attribute product alone under the hood. That isn't that hard to do, IMO. Make the logic based on the attribute product section of that equation alone. Problem solved. Now when you realize that it will take more than a 2nd rounder to get a guy that is essentially a 98 OVR, you have added some risk on the user's behalf to pursue said prospect. If I see a player with a 72 OVR and it is taking 3 first rounders to get him, I know that something is holding him back. Look at his hold value and you see he is under suspension. Now, I have to risk trading for a guy who won't be 100% available.

That is what we want. That is what GMs do. Stop trying to make everything so darn cut and dry with one number. That is why I favor getting rid of the ability to see the OVR rating. Leave that under the hood. If you have a player who is under suspension, it SHOULD be easier to acquire him, especially if the value is right. Keep this in mind, though, the average player is rated about 45 in the database. A QB with a rating of 72 is pro-bowl caliber. It would take more than a 2nd rounder to get him in the first place if the proper trade logic is in place. No doubt it needs to be reworked first, but it could work out just fine.

To me, a players value SHOULD reflect his ability AND availability. How useful is a player who is a 99 overall but is suspended indefinitely? How valuable is a player who is a 26 overall and is fully available. How about a 26 overall AND suspended indefinitely? Injured even? It DOES matter.

Like I said before, if the attributes are the same regardless, then why not include it? Again, how accurate of a game do we want here?

Okay, I think I see where the misunderstanding has been occuring. I was under the impression you wanted to apply your ratings to Madden. You want apply your ratings to a completely different football game that doesn't exist yet.

I'd love to see something as you've described it, but I fear we're a long way away from that. I think they'd have to skip a year in order to implement what your suggesting. The CPU logic would need to be revamped in almost every area.

The only thing I still disagree with is including value in the overall calculation. The overall calculation should only reflect his skills (basically, as if the player was completely healthy and available). This "skill rating" should then be included in his "value rating". Not the other way around. And I think being able to see the overall is important. If a GM wants to sign or trade a player, you'd have to assume that he knows what his overall skill set is due to film and scouting.

[ANDROMADA 1]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

Luck is a little overrated. Not sure if he's top 5 just yet. Still throws too many pics. On the other hand, Russell Wilson is severely underrated smh. Not saying he's top 5 but he's close. His awareness is arguably the best in the league.

Wilson is so aware that he did not audible to a run play from the 1/2 yard line in the big game. Wilson isn't asked to do much either. Severely underrated? I don't think so. He is top ten though.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 5 Quarterbacks

Okay, I think I see where the misunderstanding has been occuring. I was under the impression you wanted to apply your ratings to Madden. You want apply your ratings to a completely different football game that doesn't exist yet.

I'd love to see something as you've described it, but I fear we're a long way away from that. I think they'd have to skip a year in order to implement what your suggesting. The CPU logic would need to be revamped in almost every area.

The only thing I still disagree with is including value in the overall calculation. The overall calculation should only reflect his skills (basically, as if the player was completely healthy and available). This "skill rating" should then be included in his "value rating". Not the other way around. And I think being able to see the overall is important. If a GM wants to sign or trade a player, you'd have to assume that he knows what his overall skill set is due to film and scouting.

No, I want to include this in Madden. If they bring me in, I am going to push for it. Plain and simple.

The skill rating is already a part of the equation for his value.

Total value = attributes - holds

It's simple. If you take out the holds, all you have is the attribute value being equal to the total value as a player. But, since players get injured, we have to have holds for injuries. Scouts use this criteria to also place holds for suspensions.

What you want is this:

Total value = attributes

The attributes in my equation are already in there. I just added a field for holds due to injury or suspension because that is how the scouting data does it.


The skill rating IS the total value rating, plus or minus any holds in the scouting system. You can, of course, show both values to the user.

Tom Brady
OVR 72
Skills (attribute value) 97
Holds (suspension) -25


A team will likely be more willing to trade a player with a large suspension hold or injury hold than not. However, since the skills value is so large that it even makes him a great overall prospect with the holds included, the likelihood of him being traded is still pretty darn low.

[bmj2k7]

No, I want to include this in Madden. If they bring me in, I am going to push for it. Plain and simple.

The skill rating is already a part of the equation for his value.

Total value = attributes - holds

It's simple. If you take out the holds, all you have is the attribute value being equal to the total value as a player. But, since players get injured, we have to have holds for injuries. Scouts use this criteria to also place holds for suspensions.

What you want is this:

Total value = attributes

The attributes in my equation are already in there. I just added a field for holds due to injury or suspension because that is how the scouting data does it.


The skill rating IS the total value rating, plus or minus any holds in the scouting system. You can, of course, show both values to the user.

Tom Brady
OVR 72
Skills (attribute value) 97
Holds (suspension) -25


A team will likely be more willing to trade a player with a large suspension hold or injury hold than not. However, since the skills value is so large that it even makes him a great overall prospect with the holds included, the likelihood of him being traded is still pretty darn low.

Yeah but the way its going the suspension will be 0 games. There already in talks trying to get it down to a fine. Not only that is he gets even 1 game, they take it to court and the NFLPA already stated there going after Goodell to strip him of his ability to suspend anyone again. Bc they mishandled the investigation basically every way possible and in a court Brady wont get any games, maybe nothing the way its going. The NFL can't risk losing power to someone else, so he probably serves no games.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Player Ratings - Top 6 Quarterbacks

Yeah but the way its going the suspension will be 0 games. There already in talks trying to get it down to a fine. Not only that is he gets even 1 game, they take it to court and the NFLPA already stated there going after Goodell to strip him of his ability to suspend anyone again. Bc they mishandled the investigation basically every way possible and in a court Brady wont get any games, maybe nothing the way its going. The NFL can't risk losing power to someone else, so he probably serves no games.

And if/when that happens, guess what the scouts will likely do to suspension hold?

Keep in mind that they try to guess as little as possible, and only grade players off of the current facts.