NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshots & Ratings - Day Four: Wall, Ross & More as They Arrive

For how bad Bryant was on both sides of the basket last season, Evan Turner probably did have a more positive impact. It doesn't mean I'd give Turner the same 2K rating, because RPM is more of a measure of fit, impact, and usage in a player's current role and not really a direct measure of skill or fit in another context. But Kobe was killing his team last season. There's no denying that. Kobe was bad by the eye test, the efficiency test, and the RPM test. When you fail all of them, you're... pretty bad. The only way to justify his rating are vague narratives that might have been true over two seasons ago.

If Rashidi had said 'Kobe didn't play well... oh and he ranks 53rd in RPM', that's a whole different discussion. But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe because he ranked below him in RPM (based on the handful of games he could actually suit up for)... yeah. There's something really wrong with that right there. Why can I not then say Middleton is better than Jimmy Butler if we're only using one metric?

Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball.

I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating.

Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

You can't give him an OVR rating completely based on his last season when he wasn't even close to completing it.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshots & Ratings - Day Four: Wall, Ross & More as They Arrive

But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe

What Rashidi actually said:

Kobe continues to get high ratings because there are casual clowns out there (that 2K doesn't want to piss off) who seriously think he is still on par with the likes of Jimmy Butler and Klay Thompson when the reality is he is a rich man's Evan Turner at this point.

Facts are important. Lies aren't.

Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball.

I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating.

Derrick Rose: 51 games, 1530 minutes
Carmelo Anthony: 40 games, 1428 minutes
Jrue Holiday: 40 games, 1303 minutes
Jose Calderon: 40 games, 1270 minutes
Dwight Howard: 41 games, 1223 minutes
Kobe Bryant: 35 games, 1207 minutes
Brandon Jennings: 41 games, 1173 minutes
Nick Young: 42 games, 1000 minutes
Paul George: 6 games, 91 minutes

One of these is not like the others.
1200 minutes and 35 games ain't a "handful".
Kobe stans would have you believe 1000 of those don't count and that he barely played.

The reality
Manu Ginobili: 1587 minutes
Cory Joseph: 1444 minutes
Marco Belinelli: 1388 minutes
Kobe Bryant: 1207 minutes
Aron Baynes: 1122 minutes
Tiago Splitter: 1030 minutes
Matt Bonner: 935 minutes
Patrick Mills: 801 minutes
Jeff Ayres: 383 minutes
Kyle Anderson: 351 minutes

It's MORE than enough to make informed decisions off of.

Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

Next time bring the full dollar.

[Sundown]

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshots & Ratings - Day Four: Wall, Ross & More as They Arrive

If Rashidi had said 'Kobe didn't play well... oh and he ranks 53rd in RPM', that's a whole different discussion. But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe because he ranked below him in RPM (based on the handful of games he could actually suit up for)... yeah. There's something really wrong with that right there. Why can I not then say Middleton is better than Jimmy Butler if we're only using one metric?

Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball.

I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating.

Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

I think once you consider that Kobe has not played at any level of effectiveness in over two seasons, and has been terrible in extended stretches you'll see our point. It doesn't justify throwing out the non-significant data because of casual impressions or hopeful thinking, especially when it's consistent with a player's age, athletic decline, tendency, and injury history.


It's not a couple months of bad basketball in between a few productive seasons. It's a couple months of bad basketball, period, with nothing else to show for it.


Pretty much the only justification for keeping Kobe as high as an 85 is just wanting it to be that way.

It seems Rashidi never said Turner was "better" than Kobe (though I wouldn't be suprised if Turner does have less terrible impact than Kobe at this stage). He actually said Kobe was a rich man's Turner, which is actually giving him more benefit of the doubt than RPM does.


More importantly he said that Kobe is an inefficient chucking SG, 3 and D shooting guards are much more impactful, and RPM very clearly show both of those facts to be true. None of this is really that debatable. It feels that there's a case of a strawman argument here in trying to get RPM to make claims that it doesn't (nor anyone using it here has used it to do).

You can't give him an OVR rating completely based on his last season when he wasn't even close to completing it.

You can and should give a player an OVR rating most heavily influenced by recent games, especially if those are the only games that are available in multiple seasons, and especially if they are a non-insignificant sample set.

You can't base an OVR rating almost completely on memories and performance data with a very short expiration date, throwing out the most relevant data due to injuries and popularity. If anything injuries should reduce ratings somewhat by default, especially when injuries are already correlated with the reduced performance evidenced.

In no other serious basketball analysis are injures used to excuse poor performance from being indicators of a player's actual performance level. And if we really WERE just using a few months of perfomance to guage Kobe with no further consideration, he would be a 73. Not a 81.

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

You can't base an OVR rating almost completely on memories and performance data with a very short expiration date, throwing out the most relevant data due to injuries and popularity. If anything injuries should reduce ratings somewhat by default, especially when injuries are already correlated with the reduced performance evidenced.

Fact of the matter is: Kobe's got more recent positive game data when healthy then he does negative data when not (78 in '12-13 vs 41 in '13-14 + '14-15).

Kobe Bryant: 35 games, 1207 minutes

Paul George: 6 games, 91 minutes

One of these is not like the others.
1200 minutes and 35 games ain't a "handful".

Just want to clarify... I was referring to Paul George's 13-14 season. Thus: "start of 2K15"..

Paul George in last 35 games of '13-14: 20.1 ppg 7.3 rpg 3.6 apg .387 FG%

Next time bring the full dollar.

'Shidi got bars!!

Don't worry, I've got plenty

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

Fact of the matter is: Kobe's got more recent positive game data when healthy then he does negative data when not (78 in '12-13 vs 41 in '13-14 + '14-15).

If only that data applied to a post-Achillies tear version of Kobe Bryant. He's never going back to be "healthy" again, not in the context you're flailing for. This is where we put the calculator down and things like eyes and common sense kick in. The numbers SUPPORT and QUANTIFY what we see - that Kobe has lost a step and a half.

Just want to clarify... I was referring to Paul George's 13-14 season.
Paul George in last 35 games of '13-14: 20.1 ppg 7.3 rpg 3.6 apg .387 FG%

Which does nothing to refute the point that Kobe had a larger body of work than half of the players in the NBA.

As far as George goes, he was rated off his FULL body of work in 2014. You take the good games with the bad. You don't get to pick and choose which ones apply and call yourself unbiased.

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

He's never going back to be "healthy" again, not in the context you're flailing for.

What else do you see? Who's winning a ring in 2016?

Which does nothing to refute the point that Kobe had a larger body of work than half of the players in the NBA.

241... that's how many players played as many or more minutes than Kobe. You named the Spurs bench and a handful of other players... and Calderon lol.

As far as George goes, he was rated off his FULL body of work in 2014. You take the good games with the bad. You don't get to pick and choose which ones apply and call yourself unbiased.

Finally... we've come full circle... This was my initial point. George can't and wasn't rated off his last 35 games because it wasn't a full body of work akin to how Rose's 6 games weren't used when he was being rated at the start of the year. Similar to how it's going to be for Paul George in 2K16... 35 games last season is not a full body of work. 6 games before that is not a full body of work. If you truly believe that career lows (as a starter) in minutes played and games played is a full body of work this discussion is pointless.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

What else do you see? Who's winning a ring in 2016?

Don't need a crystal ball to know Kobe's achilles will never be the same.

http://regressing.deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871/1453959464

This was all written BEFORE Kobe's lackluster 2015 campaign. He's another year older now. Keep refuting common sense though.

241... that's how many players played as many or more minutes than Kobe. You named the Spurs bench and a handful of other players... and Calderon lol.

It goes without saying that if I named one team's bench and there are 30 teams in the league.... (Math is hard, I know)

35 games last season is not a full body of work. 6 games before that is not a full body of work

Sorry, but you're just flat wrong here. Minutes played (the actual sample we are drawing from) is vastly more important than games played. You are still far off base implying that 35 games is anywhere close to the 10 Rose played in 2014 or the 6 George played this past season.

If you truly believe that career lows (as a starter) in minutes played and games played is a full body of work this discussion is pointless.

I don't think you have any clue what "full body of work" realistically means. Kobe will never play 82 games in a season again. The odds of him even making it through 60 (ala Dwyane Wade) are exceptionally low.
Wade hasn't had a "full body of work" in 5 years but you don't hear anyone making excuses for the 4-years younger player.
LOL did you also think Brandon Roy didn't have a "full body of work" in 2011?
Chauncey Billups played 61 games in three years after tearing his achilies at age 34. Did his limited "body of work" stop his natural decline?

Kobe's a skilled basketball player but he can't stop time or regenerate limbs. Get over it.

[vtcrb]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

[QUOTE=BluFu;2047628795]



I see Rashidi keep trying to post things in circles and take up space on ANY Ratings discussions with his MIND Blowing Statistical Analysis. LOL

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

I can't wait to see the details of Kobe ratings because certain ratings shouldn't come back when you are 37 and they definitely don't come back after Achilles. Bed's has said before that the latest season plays the largest factor in the ratings but you are now talking about going back 3 years

On ball defense, vertical, speed they just don't come back to a pre-injured state when you are 37 to when you were 3 years younger. His defense was already dropping but last year man he didn't look good out there.

Last season Kobe was a high volume shooter, high usage rate, very, very low efficiency. If you compare his 2015 to 2013 season the thing that stands out is Kobe took 8% more jumpers last year and around 8% less shots at the rim. He also saw his at rim % drop from 69% FG to 56%

I am of the belief he couldn't get to the basket as well older age, lost step, lost vertical. He was a noticeable step slower to me.

The only thing I say is Kobe was still respectable on fadeaways he wasn't money but still effective.

[J_Posse]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

Kind of sad that such a strong bias remains in favor of Kobe. He's an all-time great player but his best days are long gone and the game should reflect that. Instead we see him being given the "benefit of the doubt" and his ratings boosted to aid his overall rating. Nothing about the Kobe of last season (or the year prior) suggests that he's an 85 overall.

Can't wait to see Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Tony Parker and Dwight Howard's overall ratings to see if they were given the "benefit of the doubt." And the negative reaction to Kobe's current overall rating, or the constant defending of it, is exactly why 2K won't drop his rating any further.

from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

http://regressing.deadspin.com/how-an-achilles-tear-affects-nba-players-or-why-kobe-472944871/1453959464

Great article (seriously, that should be shown to devs for injury enhancements in 2K17) but Wilkins came back and averaged 30 . Of course, he had less minutes under his belt but as the saying goes you just never know. You don't know how well Kobe will do next season.. so the ratings are based off what he's done. You know this... I know this... what's the debate about again?

It goes without saying that if I named one team's bench and there are 30 teams in the league.... (Math is hard, I know)

Alright let me walk you through this.. seems like you're having a hard time... 492 players played last season.. Kobe recorded the same amount (or less) than 241 of them.. 241 x 2 is... oh...

I don't think you have any clue what "full body of work" realistically means. Kobe will never play 82 games in a season again. The odds of him even making it through 60 (ala Dwyane Wade) are exceptionally low.
Wade hasn't had a "full body of work" in 5 years but you don't hear anyone making excuses for the 4-years younger player.
LOL did you also think Brandon Roy didn't have a "full body of work" in 2011?
Chauncey Billups played 61 games in three years after tearing his achilies at age 34. Did his limited "body of work" stop his natural decline?

Of course there's no perfect number besides 82. "This is where common sense kicks in." Consistent 60 game seasons are enough to evaluate a player. Playing more than half of the season is a good start..

Kobe's a skilled basketball player but he can't stop time or regenerate limbs. Get over it.

Get over what? You're complaining about his rating

I can't wait to see the details of Kobe ratings because certain ratings shouldn't come back when you are 37 and they definitely don't come back after Achilles. Bed's has said before that the latest season plays the largest factor in the ratings but you are now talking about going back 3 years

Well said. Only reason I went back another year is because that's all we've got unfortunately. 6 games just isn't enough.

[vtcrb]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

I think Kobe is the HARDEST Player to rate in the game. Honestly it could go either way with him. He could actually deserve a Rating of Low to Mid 80s rating IF he played to what his Strengths are at his Current Age. He should become more of a Facilitator and Feed his young teammates. Kobe has Tremendous Court Awareness and IQ and IF he Accepts he isnt the Player he used to be he could still be a VERY effective NBA Player. Maybe not the Kobe of Old, but still a top 50 player.

Alot will also Depend on IF 2k Added any New Attributes to the game, and What carries the most weight in their New Rating System.

[BluFu]

NBA 2K16 Player Ratings

Kind of sad that such a strong bias remains in favor of Kobe. He's an all-time great player but his best days are long gone and the game should reflect that. Instead we see him being given the "benefit of the doubt" and his ratings boosted to aid his overall rating. Nothing about the Kobe of last season (or the year prior) suggests that he's an 85 overall.

Can't wait to see Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Tony Parker and Dwight Howard's overall ratings to see if they were given the "benefit of the doubt." And the negative reaction to Kobe's current overall rating, or the constant defending of it, is exactly why 2K won't drop his rating any further.

from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

You're a Spurs fan, of course you hate Kobe

But seriously, this whole debate started from me trying to shed light on why his rating is the way it is for the guys who don't know... Players have been getting the benefit of the doubt for a while and 2K15 was no different.

Start of season
Rondo: 87 (!!) He only played 30 games the year before. 15.3 PER
DWill: 84 (!!) 64 games year before, averaged 14 and 6
Rose: 88 (!!) 10 games year before, avg 16 and 4
Tony: 88 (!) 68 games before, avg 17 and 6
Howard: 88 ... avg 18 and 12 in 71 games

Now
Rondo: 79 ... 68 games played (we know how those went)
DWill: 78 ... 68 games played (rating could drop even more at the start of 2K16)
Rose: 85 ... 51 games played, avg 18 and 5
Tony: 84 ... 68 games played, avg 14 and 4
Howard: 88 ... 41 games played

These guys all received the "benefit of the doubt" until a certain extent. If Kobe can consistently play games and does consistently bad, you'll definitely see his rating drop.

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

Well said. Only reason I went back another year is because that's all we've got unfortunately. 6 games just isn't enough.

I guess I didn't mean you directly but what 2k would have to decide. I just think using that data from 3 seasons ago shouldn't hold that much weight.

Onball defense, speed, quickness, agility, vertical, dunking. I think they all take a hit from 12-13 season. It will be interesting one way or another.

[23]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

I think Kobe is the HARDEST Player to rate in the game. Honestly it could go either way with him. He could actually deserve a Rating of Low to Mid 80s rating IF he played to what his Strengths are at his Current Age. He should become more of a Facilitator and Feed his young teammates. Kobe has Tremendous Court Awareness and IQ and IF he Accepts he isnt the Player he used to be he could still be a VERY effective NBA Player. Maybe not the Kobe of Old, but still a top 50 player.

Alot will also Depend on IF 2k Added any New Attributes to the game, and What carries the most weight in their New Rating System.

All you have to do is not be bias.

Its not time for revisionist history