NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Some ratings are probably off.. the whole algorithm doesn't need an overhaul because of that.

An opinion clearly not based on any short or long-term research. 2K doesn't need any Stan's to defend them.

[pjt8405]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

I've been begging for a overhaul of stretch 4's ratings formula, along with accurate tendencies for all players for years... Nothing yet but I do hold out hope that Stauffer can implement change as he grows with the company.

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

I have to agree the rating system looks weird when you compare position to position.

It seems bigs are penalized for not being good at skills not needed to succeed at that position. I guess it comes down to bigs need a guard to get them the ball. The overall numbers just don't make sense though when they are trying to say Overall means overall in history.

Dribbling, speed, layup, outside scoring, perimeter defense, playmaking passing are lowering these bigs.

Where rebounding, inside defense, strength is not really penalizing the guards.

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

An opinion clearly not based on any short or long-term research. 2K doesn't need any Stan's to defend them.

Why do you keep calling me a 'Stan'....? Lol.... the ratings are of... ok, why does the entire algorithm need an overhaul?

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

why does the entire algorithm need an overhaul?

Read the previous post.

[J_Posse]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

What angers me is that I've been saying for the last month that the "Hall of Fame rating system" is over-hyped marketing trash, due in part to YEARS of saying the PF formula is clear-cut garbage.

And here we are.

SHOOTING GUARDS
94 - Allen Iverson (2001)
88 - Joe Dumars (1989)
86 - Richard Hamilton (2004)
85 - Michael Cooper (1987)
84 - Byron Scott (1987)
82 - Larry Hughes (2007)

POWER FORWARDS
90 - Karl Malone (1998)
86 - Tim Duncan (1998)
85 - Dirk Nowitzki (2003)

Please please please someone tell me I'm wrong. Because I'm not. This is ****ing pathetic.

Edit: Regarding Griffin and Aldridge, their rebound/defense ratings will be stupid overrated per usual, par for the course when 2K wants a PF to have a high rating, because lying to your consumer over a 15-year period is more effective and an efficient use of everyone's time rather than spending like 6 hours re-working an ancient algorithm.

Yeah, when you put it like that then you begin to notice how ridiculously one sided the ratings algorithm is. Even though they claimed that they added different "archetypes" but that still hasn't alleviated the problem.

At no point in time were any of those guards, minus Allen Iverson, ever on the same stratosphere as rookie Tim Duncan. ****, no way is 39 year old Tim Duncan even with his rookie self. Older Duncan is smarter, a better passer and more battle tested (which doesn't matter in a game/ratings sense) but younger Duncan is superior in every other aspect of basketball.


from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Dribbling, speed, layup, outside scoring, perimeter defense, playmaking passing are lowering these bigs.

Where rebounding, inside defense, strength is not really penalizing the guards.

Read the previous post.

It's very well the case that Dirk is severely underrated rated in these categories.. Similar to how Griffin has been underrated in playmaking for a while. Also similar to how Kyrie/Lillard have been overrated in that area. Just because the ratings assigned to players have been incorrect, doesn't mean the algorithm used for overalls needs to be completely changed.

[cbpo]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

It's very well the case that Dirk is severely underrated rated in these categories.. Similar to how Griffin has been underrated in playmaking for a while. Also similar to how Kyrie/Lillard have been overrated in that area. Just because the ratings assigned to players have been incorrect, doesn't mean the algorithm used for overalls needs to be completely changed.

The algorithm does need to be changed for bigs though, he's right. I'm anal about ratings so always redo them every year based off formulas and the overall algorithm for bigs does need to be tweaked, prime example of his posting karl malone/duncan/dirk.
Its very probable their ratings will be inflated to get their overall to levels that users would expect. Usually rebounding/defense will be overrated.

Also in previous years, the rebounding ratings are off as well relative to how they should be. Often times guards have very low rebounding averages when you simulate and if you fix the scale to how it should be it usually entails dropping the bigs rebounding ratings which significantly reduces their overall. Typically if you want actual individual ratings how they should be based off of real life performance Top tier pf's like aldridge will end up like an 85. The algorithm def needs to be changed

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

It's very well the case that Dirk is severely underrated rated in these categories.. Similar to how Griffin has been underrated in playmaking for a while. Also similar to how Kyrie/Lillard have been overrated in that area. Just because the ratings assigned to players have been incorrect, doesn't mean the algorithm used for overalls needs to be completely changed.

If they are really trying to make the algorithm be so overall rating equals overall compared to every position then they need to rethink the ratings. I don't know the details I am saying if you compare players across positions it becomes clear that the bigs are dropped because they probably don't have high ratings in things guards would do.

How do you justify Iverson 2001 being a 94 and Hakeem 1994 being an 93. I actually like Iverson but Hakeem is 99 post offense, 99 post control whatever post rating you want to give and probably is the most agile center in history. Could hit jumpers and defensively he was a beast. He could actually dribble in the post.

A peak Iverson might be 99 speed, and acceleration maybe handle. The guards/wings seem to be higher rated

[Sundown]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Yeah, when you put it like that then you begin to notice how ridiculously one sided the ratings algorithm is. Even though they claimed that they added different "archetypes" but that still hasn't alleviated the problem.

At no point in time were any of those guards, minus Allen Iverson, ever on the same stratosphere as rookie Tim Duncan. ****, no way is 39 year old Tim Duncan even with his rookie self. Older Duncan is smarter, a better passer and more battle tested (which doesn't matter in a game/ratings sense) but younger Duncan is superior in every other aspect of basketball.


from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

This is a huge problem. I'm pretty happy with the stars and alot of rankings for players in the current league. But the algorithm doesn't seem to properly reward premier stretch 4's or even one of the best centers in history.


And it would be a lot less effort to come up with more archetypes and adjust weightings to get better OVRs than it would to rerate entire swaths of players (assuming the ratings are accurate and produce the correct results in the first place).

It's very well the case that Dirk is severely underrated rated in these categories.. Similar to how Griffin has been underrated in playmaking for a while. Also similar to how Kyrie/Lillard have been overrated in that area. Just because the ratings assigned to players have been incorrect, doesn't mean the algorithm used for overalls needs to be completely changed.

Chances are there are issues in both areas. Ratings should essentially be at least a two-step process.


1: Accurately rate players according to their peers, including those of previous eras as best as can be done, on a normalized scale, in a way that also plays properly.


2: Adjust OVR calcuation formulas and add needed archtypes to properly give players their values against the rest of the league and also against historical players.

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Also in previous years, the rebounding ratings are off as well relative to how they should be. Often times guards have very low rebounding averages when you simulate and if you fix the scale to how it should be it usually entails dropping the bigs rebounding ratings which significantly reduces their overall. Typically if you want actual individual ratings how they should be based off of real life performance Top tier pf's like aldridge will end up like an 85. The algorithm def needs to be changed

I've done a lot of simming myself... the major problem has always been that rebound ratings were not distinct enough across the board. This lead to no outliers with 14+ RPG, and most guards grabbing 5+ a game... So I've had quite the opposite experience.

Also in my own roster, I've got Lillard at a 83... I didn't go in and change the algorithm, I simply edited his ratings to reflect his inefficient scoring and subpar defense/playmaking.

If they are really trying to make the algorithm be so overall rating equals overall compared to every position then they need to rethink the ratings. I don't know the details I am saying if you compare players across positions it becomes clear that the bigs are dropped because they probably don't have high ratings in things guards would do.

How do you justify Iverson 2001 being a 94 and Hakeem 1994 being an 93. I actually like Iverson but Hakeem is 99 post offense, 99 post control whatever post rating you want to give and probably is the most agile center in history. Could hit jumpers and defensively he was a beast. He could actually dribble in the post.

A peak Iverson might be 99 speed, and acceleration maybe handle. The guards/wings seem to be higher rated

Again, Hakeem is without a doubt underrated in those areas. Iverson is looking like he has his shooting and defense overrated as well (had him in the high 80s in my roster). I'd like to continue this discussion once we can dive into the individual ratings for '16.

I'll say this.. It's a lot easier to overrate a guard simply because of the amount of individual ratings that are important to the position. So what 2K needs to do is try and get more ratings that favor bigs in the game.

[cbpo]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

I've done a lot of simming myself... the major problem has always been that rebound ratings were not distinct enough across the board. This lead to no outliers with 14+ RPG, and most guards grabbing 5+ a game... So I've had quite the opposite experience.

Also in my own roster, I've got Lillard at a 83... I didn't go in and change the algorithm, I simply edited his ratings to reflect his inefficient scoring and subpar defense/playmaking.



Again, Hakeem is without a doubt underrated in those areas. Iverson is looking like he has his shooting and defense overrated as well (had him in the high 80s in my roster). I'd like to continue this discussion once we can dive into the individual ratings for '16.

I'll say this.. It's a lot easier to overrate a guard simply because of the amount of individual ratings that are important to the position. So what 2K needs to do is try and get more ratings that favor bigs in the game.

I worded it sort of incorrectly. The way 2k's system works especially for rebounding is that it's relative. So for example, I would re-do the ratings not on a HOF scale but just based off of current NBA leaders so lets say drummond/deandre are best rebounders, they would be 99 etc than everyone else would be based off of them with players averaging 10 boards usually in the very low 80's. Otherwise you do get the problem you mentioned where you have no outliers. But when you edit them the way I did, I was able to get drummond/deandre to about 13.8 boards a game where as normally they wouldn't average even 11 boards and then with this scale everyone else also had accurate rebound averages as they did in real life. Only issue is, that because drummond/deandre are so much better at rebounding than others, other pf's/bigs rebounding ratings would have to be dropped significantally to make it realistic and thus their overall ratings are dropped alot. And then as I would drop the guards rebound ratings, their overall wouldn't drop. So in order to get realistic rebounding averages etc most bigs would be rated probably 2-3 overall less than a guard that would be comparable to them in talent. It's possible they could've changed it but just seems unlikely with these Prime Malone and Duncan ratings. Pretty sure based off their old scale for example , Andre drummonds offensive rebound rating would have had to been like 120. He averages 6.3 ORB per 36 but in the game it's hard to even get him to 4. So if this is still the case, def needs some tweaking.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Only issue is, that because drummond/deandre are so much better at rebounding than others, other pf's/bigs rebounding ratings would have to be dropped significantally to make it realistic and thus their overall ratings are dropped alot.

The core issue is rebounding simply isn't that important for a PF nowadays.
It is significantly less important than being able to consistently hit a three.

Guess how 2K's formula feels about that?

[BluFu]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Only issue is, that because drummond/deandre are so much better at rebounding than others, other pf's/bigs rebounding ratings would have to be dropped significantally to make it realistic and thus their overall ratings are dropped alot. And then as I would drop the guards rebound ratings, their overall wouldn't drop. So in order to get realistic rebounding averages etc most bigs would be rated probably 2-3 overall less than a guard that would be comparable to them in talent.

Yup that's very true. Goes back to what I said before though... there's just not enough ratings (or even badges) that favor bigs.

The core issue is rebounding simply isn't that important for a PF nowadays.
It is significantly less important than being able to consistently hit a three.

Guess how 2K's formula feels about that?

The best power forward today has hit a total of 3 threes in his entire career. The best power forward of all time (according to many) has only hit 30 in a near 20 year span. Rebounding for a PF is significantly less important than hitting 3s? I don't think many would agree with that.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Power Forwards

Paul Millsap (Age 29): All-Star
20.0 PER in 33 MPG
57 TS% on 24 USG% with 15 AST%
7 ORB%, 20 DRB%
2.8 STL%, 2.4 BLK%, 4.3 Fouls per 100 Poss

Paul Millsap (2015) with accurate ratings (i.e. no padded lies) = 79 OVR.
The average starting PF = 80 OVR.

Millsap Skill Grades (79 OVR)
Inside Scoring: B-
Mid-Range: B
3PT Scoring: B-
Playmaking: C
Perimeter Defense: B+
Post Defense: B
Rebounding: B-
Physicals: B
Basketball IQ: A

Average PF Skill Grades (80 OVR)
Inside Scoring: B-
Mid-Range: B-
3PT Scoring: C-
Playmaking: D+
Perimeter Defense: C
Post Defense: B-
Rebounding: B-
Physicals: C+
Basketball IQ: B

It is crystal clear that Paul Millsap is rated better than your average PF, yet his OVR rates below average.
The two areas Millsap is merely average in are "Inside Scoring" and "Rebounding".

The ONLY possible way for Millsap to come out below average is if the game is penalizing those "average" categories while barely caring about his numerous substantial advantages in other areas.

Thomas Robinson (79 OVR)
15.3 PER in 15 MPG
50 TS% on 20 USG% with 8 AST%
13 ORB%, 29 DRB%
2.0 STL%, 1.9 BLK%, 6.6 Fouls per 100 Poss

Robinson is clearly the worse player of the two. If anything he has similar production to that of a rookie Paul Millsap (17.8 PER in 18 MPG, 18 USG%, 15 ORB%) in a lower-usage bench role.

[b]Yet with fair ratings Robinson's OVR = Millsap. One of these players is an all-star that signed a new contract for 19M per. The other just signed for the minimum.

Reviewing his skills
Inside Scoring: C
Mid-Range: D-
3PT Scoring: F
Playmaking: D+
Perimeter Defense: C
Post Defense: C+
Rebounding: A+
Physicals: B-
Basketball IQ: C-

Average Starting PF
Inside Scoring: B-
Mid-Range: B-
3PT Scoring: C-
Playmaking: D+
Perimeter Defense: C
Post Defense: B-
Rebounding: B-
Physicals: C+
Basketball IQ: B

Robinson isn't remotely close to being an average PF. He is a one-trick pony, consequently a role player because of it, and yet look how far that trick takes him in the 2K formula.

Why this is a significant problem:

Thaddeus Young (74 OVR)
Inside Scoring: C+
Mid-Range: D+
3PT Scoring: C+
Playmaking: C-
Perimeter Defense: B
Post Defense: C+
Rebounding: C+
Physicals: B+
Basketball IQ: B

Thomas Robinson (79 OVR)
Inside Scoring: C
Mid-Range: D-
3PT Scoring: F
Playmaking: D+
Perimeter Defense: C
Post Defense: C+
Rebounding: A+
Physicals: B-
Basketball IQ: C-

Young is the better player in all but one regard, yet 2K values him significantly lower, to the point where he's the clear backup to Robinson when it should be vice-versa.

The best power forward today has hit a total of 3 threes in his entire career. The best power forward of all time (according to many) has only hit 30 in a near 20 year span. Rebounding for a PF is significantly less important than hitting 3s? I don't think many would agree with that.

Have fun with your narrow, contrarian approach.