Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[SECElit3]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

He shouldn't respond. The way in which the question was asked, it seemed quasi-rhetorical anyway, by its tenor lends itself to being ignored.

It is a very fair question and should be looked upon as an opportunity for Kane to sell his qualifications to the community. There was nothing wrong with asking the question or the way it was asked.


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[roadman]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It is a very fair question and should be looked upon as an opportunity for Kane to sell his qualifications to the community. There was nothing wrong with asking the question or the way it was asked.


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The only place he needs to sell his talents and abilities is at EA, not in a forum.

[NateDogPack12]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Let me say that I'm dissapointed in the condescending and outright hostile tone employed by some when addressing this EA staff member. We need to tread carefully so our community continues to retain respect and cooperation from developers. I have been very vocal about criticizing Madden, unlike many on the forum who just suck up, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Did you actually expect a response Dan? Again, uniform guys should stick with uniforms. Kane does a fair job at them. Ratings should be handled by someone who only has that responsibility.

The process in it's current state is destined for failure, as indicated by some of the late season ratings.

Well considering that he didn't answer to Charter or I when we asked previously, no, I do not expect a response, albeit it would be welcomed.

I just want to know that if someone is going to cite some information that they have the qualifications to properly use it. If that isn't the case or it doesn't matter, then so be it, but let's be real about it.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is not at all fair.

The question was asked at 3 pm on friggin Christmas.

I'm all for fair criticism but lets not say something like this when the guy hasn't even been given a fair chance to respond.

I agree that we should give him a chance to respond. I wasn't expecting an answer either way, but it would be nice. I don't care how long it takes, but any response that isn't pure sarcasm (which he has used in previous posts around here) would be welcomed.

[canes21]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

90-100 should be Hall of Famer territory. And as stated, by an earlier poster, Dallas is extremely overrated.


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And the Redskins are apparently the second worst team in the NFL.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

He shouldn't respond. The way in which the question was asked, it seemed quasi-rhetorical anyway, by its tenor lends itself to being ignored.

I can assure as the person who asked, it was not rhetorical. Everyone gets their starts meagerly. Nobody jumps to the top of a ladder right away in this business. I want to know what his qualifications are. I simply illustrated that it is OK to start at the bottom as I did. Everyone needs to learn from somewhere/someone. If he is qualified to do the ratings full-time, considering that he was/is the equipment guru, I want to know what qualifications he has. However, he has to be willing to share and not give me all the sarcasm as he has previously on this forum.

I am simply asking questions, and as a part of the community, I should at least be able to ask. Nothing I said was disrespectful. The ball is in his court.

[SECElit3]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Ratings and uniforms are too much for one person...


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[canes21]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Ratings and uniforms are too much for one person...


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I would probably say rating the entire NFL is too much for one person.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

The only place he needs to sell his talents and abilities is at EA, not in a forum.

That's true, and he can choose to answer if he wishes. I just don't think that it is beyond anyone to ask questions, respectfully, in this forum of the devs. What I don't like is when they are met with disrespect back, as if asking in itself was disrespectful.

Wouldn't be the first time, that's for sure:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...updates-5.html

[RogueHominid]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

My answer is that "Ratings" function in various roles within the overall scope of the game, beyond just a "player value" system.

What doesn't get discussed when talking about what mechanism/model should be used, is the "functionality" implication of a rating/model change upon years of coding, especially since Madden is not being rebuilt from the ground up. (per say)


3) Animations
- triggering levels
- ability to expand/add hundreds or more upon a "particular" rating, there by, limiting the ability to make an aspect of gameplay more fluid

This is the part that the crowd advocating for an FGB revolution doesn't talk enough about in my opinion.

I'm fine with FGB or any other system that seeks to incorporate more realistic data into the game and that seeks to achieve a greater ratings distribution across the league and across individual rosters.

But, none of that work will mean a thing if the threshold values at which animations trigger are not re-calibrated to fit whatever new scale is implemented.

The reason is that Madden is an animation-based game, not a physics-based game, so fetishizing raw, verifiable, historical physical data and real scouting metrics only have meaning for M17 insofar as they can be tied effectively into the game's existing framework of numerically-triggered animation sequences.

So my big take on this thread is that whoever fills the vacuum left by Donny Moore's absence--and I don't know the guy, so I can't say anything about him one way or the other--must account for the game's current dependence on animations triggered by certain numerical values.

Ideally, Madden would rebuild itself as a physics-based game where these linkages would be easier to achieve, but there's no way that's happening, not as I see it anyway.

[NateDogPack12]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Here's the thing, Dan... As someone who is petitioning the EA representatives to implement something you created, there is an inherent conflict of interest wherein it behooves you to undermine this gentleman's work. It's a self-promotional lambasting instead of an objective arena of ideas, or at the very best it has the potential to be so anyway.

I have seen you advocate for your ratings many times as if they are perfect or the best solution. I disagree completely. I think EA had it right when they actually tightened the curve back in the Madden 07 XBOX days. We can respectfully disagree on those fundamental principles and there's nothing wrong with that

I just feel like grandstanding and personal promotion isn't the best way to address EA.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is the part that the crowd advocating for an FGB revolution doesn't talk enough about in my opinion.

I'm fine with FGB or any other system that seeks to incorporate more realistic data into the game and that seeks to achieve a greater ratings distribution across the league and across individual rosters.

But, none of that work will mean a thing if the threshold values at which animations trigger are not re-calibrated to fit whatever new scale is implemented.

The reason is that Madden is an animation-based game, not a physics-based game, so fetishizing raw, verifiable, historical physical data and real scouting metrics only have meaning for M17 insofar as they can be tied effectively into the game's existing framework of numerically-triggered animation sequences.

So my big take on this thread is that whoever fills the vacuum left by Donny Moore's absence--and I don't know the guy, so I can't say anything about him one way or the other--must account for the game's current dependence on animations triggered by certain numerical values.

Ideally, Madden would rebuild itself as a physics-based game where these linkages would be easier to achieve, but there's no way that's happening, not as I see it anyway.

I totally agree, and that is one caveat that I have made very clear with the brass at EA - in order for these things to work correctly, we have to be able to have some say on how they are implemented in the game itself. All of it is moot unless we are used to let the ratings drive the game. It's all just window-dressing until that happens.

In my honest opinion, I think that we may be closer to a day when EA has a real competitor in the NFL video game arena, and I am prepared for that possibility as well. If it were up to me, I would blow the whole thing up, make the game be data driven, and have the animations follow that data. It would require a reboot and real physics, however, which is likely going to be too costly for EA to see as a real option.

You don't have to tell me that simply changing the ratings will fix everything. We already know the limitations of the project, hence why we are always pursuing other vendors. I am considering this effort this year to be the last ditch effort in getting this data into the game. If it doesn't work now, after getting something tangible into the right hands at EA, it won't ever happen. We know this, and are prepared to seek other opportunities outside of the football gaming world; more in-line with our sister site, NFLDraftScout.com.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Here's the thing, Dan... As someone who is petitioning the EA representatives to implement something you created, there is an inherent conflict of interest wherein it behooves you to undermine this gentleman's work. It's a self-promotional lambasting instead of an objective arena of ideas, or at the very best it has the potential to be so anyway.

I have seen you advocate for your ratings many times as if they are perfect or the best solution. I disagree completely. I think EA had it right when they actually tightened the curve back in the Madden 07 XBOX days. We can respectfully disagree on those fundamental principles and there's nothing wrong with that

I just feel like grandstanding and personal promotion isn't the best way to address EA.

I didn't undermine anything regarding his work, I just don't agree with his cited methodology of "film study and PFF". What I am doing is asking if he has a trained background in game film analysis. Is that so wrong of me to ask knowing that he doesn't have to, and likely won't, answer? You already know where I stand on PFF and I constantly question their methodology as well (like how it says on their FAQ page that they are not scouts and that they only look at the outcome of the play).

EA already knows my stance and I have already had those conversations with Rex, et al. They assured me that I am in no penalty for continuing to display my opinions on these boards. You can call it grandstanding if you like, but to me I am simply asking questions. I am not attempting to win everyone over here because that will never happen, but what I do want is an open dialogue about alternative methodologies. That requires us to ask questions and be critical. You all know I have had my fair share of that on these boards, but at least I am as transparent as I can legally be.

Now, do I stand by my work? Yes. Do I stand by the methodologies that I employ? Yes. Am I proud of it. Yes. However, if asking questions and entering into a constructive debate (especially whereas my past line of questioning was outright met with disdain, sarcasm, and a bunch of non-answers) makes me a grandstanding, self-promoting, whatever-you-want-to-call-me, then so be it. I can handle that.

[mestevo]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Is that so wrong of me to ask knowing that he doesn't have to, and likely won't, answer? You already know where I stand on PFF and I constantly question their methodology as well (like how it says on their FAQ page that they are not scouts and that they only look at the outcome of the play).

EA already knows my stance and I have already had those conversations with Rex, et al. They assured me that I am in no penalty for continuing to display my opinions on these boards. You can call it grandstanding if you like, but to me I am simply asking questions. I am not attempting to win everyone over here because that will never happen, but what I do want is an open dialogue about alternative methodologies. That requires us to ask questions and be critical. You all know I have had my fair share of that on these boards, but at least I am as transparent as I can legally be.

Now, do I stand by my work? Yes. Do I stand by the methodologies that I employ? Yes. Am I proud of it. Yes. However, if asking questions and entering into a constructive debate (especially whereas my past line of questioning was outright met with disdain, sarcasm, and a bunch of non-answers) makes me a grandstanding, self-promoting, whatever-you-want-to-call-me, then so be it. I can handle that.

I think you had a leg to stand on until you flat out admit you didn't expect him to answer - which by your own admission is grandstanding, as you did not intend to 'enter into a constructive debate' - your words. You're bypassing the dialog you try and claim to have and instead openly discrediting which is putting it nicely.

Qualifications to do a job are not a dialog on ratings. It goes right up there with all of the 'developers suck'-style premises that go into so many posts and are the least bit constructive because they bypass criticism of the game and instead make it personal.