Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

[jake19ny]

The Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series:

In light of my latest frustrations with this new tuner something dawned on me that I thought long and hard about. It may have been mentioned in passing by myself or others in the past but I think it needs serious discussion and possibly mentioned at the Game Changers Event by the representatives...DJ Neo "hint" "hint". This would probably have been better if written by a staff writer here at OS if they agreed with it but I will do my best.

It is my opinion that the greatest problem facing this series is that EA tries to make a one size fits all hockey game when it comes to Online and Offline and it simply will never work as both sides get cheated out of various aspects of the sport and or gaming.

Tuners

First off, what set me started on this was thinking about the tuners and how they were released;
1. Game released and everyone complained
2. Tuner released and Off liners enjoyed the game but Online players unhappy
3. Tuner released to address poke spamming, On liners rejoice Off liners unhappy spending 20 minutes a game in the penalty box.
4. Tuner released to reduce poke check penalties, On liners mad Off liners happy
5. Tuner released back to passive CPU Off Liners unhappy and On Liners happy

Its a vicious cycle of trying to please everyone and you cannot.

Online

Hockey might be one of the most difficult sports to achieve a quality on line experience. Anyone who has played even casually online will probably admit that most online VS games or EASHL games barely resemble anything close to real hockey. Lets face it even if your a hockey enthusiast and true sim guy, that tends to go out the window in an online game. Your playing somebody and you want to win period...You have to base your game on the way the opponent plays and deal with it that way. We have all played the guy who skates end to end with the puck and rips the money goal complained about for years. How about the guy who is highly skilled at lining up those crushing checks that frustrate you, notice he never gets called for charging or elbowing? How about in EASHL and someone playing as a D man is constantly as deep as possible in the Offensive zone because he couldn't be the winger he wanted to be. These things happen more often than not in the online experience.

I personally barely play hockey online and have never played any other sports game online but I imagine in Baseball no matter how you may want to play you have to pitch a good game. You need to make contact on the ball. You need to field well and make smart decisions throwing and base running....Like real baseball. In online football you have to throw the ball well timed. You need to run after the catch. You need to time your blitz or tackle and you need to make smart coaching calls. Like real football. I'm sure their are ways to exploit those mentioned games, there always will be but for the most part you have to play somewhat like the sport. In the NHL series you can go out there and be a menace on the ice or a hockey God and it really doesn't matter. I am not very good at the online game but have an overall winning record because despite being outshot 29-7 I got that lucky bounce off the defenders leg or that weak goal as I skated over the line and shot the puck that floated over the goalies shoulder....Yeah I'm that guy.

All that stuff mentioned above seems like I'm crapping on the Offline game and I'm not, it just is what it is. It can be a blast if you accept it for that but if your looking for a real hockey sim match up online, good luck they are hard to find.

Offline

So, how does the online game affect us off line gamers. I think the single most damaging issue caused by trying to integrate a single game into two experiences is in the AI. For starters if your into an arcade like experience offline read no further because this game will deliver that for you. If your a hardcore sim guy who loves BeaGM or Season mode our biggest gripe is the CPU Defensive AI. I find that the CPU is way to passive no matter what sliders you tweak. I don't care if your currently getting good results with your game the bottom line is the CPU simply doesn't finish checks, close off the skating lane, and they rarely initiate board play. How does this relate to online gaming? well

The number one complaint I have heard from online gamers, besides lag, is the CPU player taking a penalty behind the play...The only way to cut that down is to "Tune" the AI to reduce or eliminate that type of play that would cause the infraction it of course translates into the offline game where the CPU plays more passive as a result.

Second complaint of online gamers. Poke Spammers...They tried to address this by raising the penalty likely hood but it destroyed the offline game with every poke attempt resulting in a penalty so they toned it down much to the dismay of the online gamer. latest "tuning" the CPU simply doesn't use its stick as much. Again trying to please everyone.

How about the CPU neutral zone play? The CPU simply does not dump and chase nearly enough nor puts enough defensive pressure there. How does this relate to Online? Because "SniperGod456" would never play the game again if the CPU positioned and played proper hockey preventing him from, well.... being "SniperGod456". I have seen numerous complaints this year from EASHL players that the CPU controlled players are too good....Really?

Final Thoughts

In the end I think EA NHL16 has made a lot of positive strides and at times during tuners delivered a pretty solid game however many issues and many of them lingering issues for years, remain. I think these issues will never be resolved as long as this series tries to be two games in one. Its almost as if they need to release two separate games which will never happen. I'm not sure of the solution perhaps its as simple as creating separate tuners for online and offline. Let "SniperGod456" skate around like he's in the icecapades...Let "Crusher789" run at people all day long but create a separate offline tuner that allows the CPU to play hockey, I've seen shades of it, its there. They should also have separate rosters for online as its totally absurd that if Stamkos is out for 3 months you cant play with him against your friends online for 3 months.

Like I said one of the staff writers here could have done this more justice provided they are in agreement.

Thoughts on this? Am I crazy?

[AdamJones113]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I think you make a lot of good points, jake. There definitely is a divide between offline and online, but it isn't the one EA believes it to be. EA thinks of online as the sim area, where parameters (sliders, quit penalties, EASHL builds) are strictly defined, which in theory in turn leads to a more sim game. Now, a lot of online people definitely want to play sim—6 v 6 EASHL is the only mode in the game without the AI, thus making it the most dynamic and enjoyable without the AI problems—but so do a lot of offline players. EA thinks that offline, where sliders can be adjusted, ratings can be edited, etc, is more conducive to casual play. Yes, there are those people, but some of them have been driven off by the lack of Create-A-Team, last year's fiasco, etc (people from every facet of the game have). Which means that a lot of the remaining offliners, eg us here on OS, want a sim experience... which we aren't getting.

The simplest solution to the above-outlined tuner problem is to approach the game from a sim perspective initially. This leads more hardcore players to buy the game with the prospect of "sim." Casual players will buy it the same: they'll see the back of the box and think ooh, dynamic goalies, ooh, most realistic skating engine, and they'll buy it; the moms and grandmothers will still get it for Christmas and birthdays. Then you start the tuners, tune as much as you want... but allow us to pick our tuner offline and keep open the option to return to an old tuner online.

[GlennN]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

As the saying goes, you can't please everybody. I am strictly an offline gamer, and tough I love watching the NHL, I like my videogame experience a bit faster and a bit more arcadey (if that is a word) than reality. Making a videogame more realistic isn't necessarily making the game more fun. The NHL series has gotten more lifelike, better momentum, better physics, but, frankly, the series peaked (for me) with NHL 10. Once again, I have gone back to that game and shelved 16. For me, the series needs much more player separation by attributes - that is by far my biggest complaint. The sliders also need to work better (I simply cannot get 16 to work as well for me as I have 10 working). If you ask 100 people the greatest problem, you'll probably get 90 different answers.

[scutaro]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

Outside making the AI better across the board the real problem with this series is offline mode player separation. Ratings are way too bunched. As a former programmer I recognize the difficulty getting there, however if we can all agree that there is not a lot more graphics improvement available to the 'experience' because with limited complaints, EA really has the presentation nailed, the effort should be getting AI bad guys and my AI teammates to play the same game I am and refresh the PBP.

I think the basic stuff is all there, and recognize as well that without some flash and dash it is difficult to keep getting 60 bucks a year from people for an improved stick logo or jersey.

[Simple Mathematics]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I'd love to get a crack at their rosters for a year and hear feedback from everyone.

I am also looking for a more complete experience in BaGM. I want scouting to be expanded greatly. I want to view stats for the next crop of rookies and I want to make decisions based off of that. I want my scouts to tell me the intangibles and their potentials.

I also want a better pre-season. In Eastside Hockey Manager, I LOVE their training camp before the season begins. I like how you can have guys on try-out contracts. It adds so much to the mode.

I need a better trade deadline and draft-day package for trades. I want to feel the pressure to deal guys and get what I need. I want there to be buyers and sellers. I want veterans on their last year of their contract to be big targets by other teams.

I want free agency improvements. You should have to compete in bidding wars with other teams for players. Players should want certain things in their desired team (contender, young, old, guys from his country, etc.).

I want to view stats from other leagues from around the world like the SHL.

I want to be able to play in international tournaments.

I want relocation and expansion/contraction.

I want mid-season contract extensions.

I want no trade/no movement clauses.

I want injuries that put guys out for several months or for the entire season.

I want the announcers to recognize the past and comment on it. Like if a player had done historically well against the team you're playing. Or if a guy has been on a hot streak. Or to recognize that a player was just traded.

I want custom Cup celebrations. Let us skate around with the cup and have buttons to raise it, kiss it, hand it off to a teammate, etc. Let us determine when it is over by pressing start. Then the players gather around for the team photo.

It's 2016. This is all do-able.

[MizzouRah]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

As the saying goes, you can't please everybody. I am strictly an offline gamer, and tough I love watching the NHL, I like my videogame experience a bit faster and a bit more arcadey (if that is a word) than reality. Making a videogame more realistic isn't necessarily making the game more fun. The NHL series has gotten more lifelike, better momentum, better physics, but, frankly, the series peaked (for me) with NHL 10. Once again, I have gone back to that game and shelved 16. For me, the series needs much more player separation by attributes - that is by far my biggest complaint. The sliders also need to work better (I simply cannot get 16 to work as well for me as I have 10 working). If you ask 100 people the greatest problem, you'll probably get 90 different answers.

This is a good post, I like the same things, faster pace, more hitting (although the real NHL has higher hits per game than I do, probably due to the length of a real hockey game vs a video game).

I will say though, I'm thoroughly enjoying NHL as an offline BeaGM player. There are things I want changed/added but I've had some really superb gaming moments with NHL 16.

[jack72]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

Lots of great points.
I hope that EA listens to what is said here.


Unfortunately what we will get out of this from EA is .....crickets chirping.

[jake19ny]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

Lots of great points.
I hope that EA listens to what is said here.


Unfortunately what we will get out of this from EA is .....crickets chirping.

I don't believe that....and trust me I have been as unhappy as most hardcore hockey fans but I think EA has made a legit attempt at listening to us. It's not that they don't care. I'm a realist and hockey is low on the sports gaming food chain they have a budget and try to fit in what they can. Unfortunately not everyone thinks like me. Many do but just as many don't. Like a previous poster said, to paraphrase, a bunch of people can have a bunch of different complaints....that's why I'm leading toward better slider implementation and the choice of tuners....to beat a dead horse, one size does not fit all.

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I don't believe that....and trust me I have been as unhappy as most hardcore hockey fans but I think EA has made a legit attempt at listening to us. It's not that they don't care. I'm a realist and hockey is low on the sports gaming food chain they have a budget and try to fit in what they can. Unfortunately not everyone thinks like me. Many do but just as many don't. Like a previous poster said, to paraphrase, a bunch of people can have a bunch of different complaints....that's why I'm leading toward better slider implementation and the choice of tuners....to beat a dead horse, one size does not fit all.

I think this is bang on. I think the hockey video game is a hair above niche title these days. I've been really impressed with what the devs have tried to do—especially Ben Ross. I think a lot of the series' problems just comes down to resources and budget.

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't go and check out the developer back an forth on the official EA NHL forum. Some great insight about gameplay design in there.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/listByUser/9427035.page

[stevostl]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

this is in response to your Online section ONLY

Hockey might be one of the most difficult sports to achieve a quality on line experience. Anyone who has played even casually online will probably admit that most online VS games or EASHL games barely resemble anything close to real hockey.

Not so sure about that. When the EASHL first released.. I believe in 09 - NHL11.. 6 v 6 hockey was great those first 3 years of the EASHL when it started. In fact it was the best thing ever when it comes to anything related to sports games and nothing even compared. There was no other video sports games experience that beat that in those times.

Lets face it even if your a hockey enthusiast and true sim guy, that tends to go out the window in an online game. Your playing somebody and you want to win period...You have to base your game on the way the opponent plays and deal with it that way. We have all played the guy who skates end to end with the puck and rips the money goal complained about for years. How about the guy who is highly skilled at lining up those crushing checks that frustrate you, notice he never gets called for charging or elbowing? How about in EASHL and someone playing as a D man is constantly as deep as possible in the Offensive zone because he couldn't be the winger he wanted to be. These things happen more often than not in the online experience.

the experience you talk about are more seen in vs mode or something like that or maybe OTP. A 6 v 6 there is no glitch goals back in the days.. a manual goalie would save it .. a manual defender would stop any cheese moves as well. The only time things like you are talking about come in to play when you get the computer AI involved which is not what the EASHL is about.


The thing about NHL series is things in the past are always better.. I remember I use to say I rather play NHL 94 or whatever on the Sega Genesis than any NHL ever on PS1 or PS2….

It wasn’t until around NHL09 and the EASHL that I finally would rather play that because the EASHL was the best thing going in sports video game period.

But now again on the new systems … I find myself again when Playing NHL on the PS4 saying.. damn I rather play NHL09 – NHL11 on PS3 than this crap… this is what is BAD about the NHL series..

It shouldn’t be this way. NHL was once one of EA’s top sports games that they put a lot money into. The reason the NHL series has went downhill is because it’s no longer even close to the top or being important. Around the NHL12 days I think it was when EA switched the majority of the attention to FIFA and their online with online clubs and what not. This is also when a bunch of the large NHL EASHL community that got built up started switching over to FIFA because of that fact as well because EA started switched all their attention to that online modes.

This is the major issue with the NHL series.. it’s just not important any longer. It use to be recognized as one of the top sports games year in and year out… it’s no longer even in the top 3 yearly.

EA puts a lot more time and money into FIFA that comes out around the same time… even the NHL EASHL attribute system they took away which made them money in the past is gone. The default player build idea was the worst idea ever. They will now come out next year with a “NEW” feature saying look you can edit your players in the EASHL again. This was available in NHL09 on the PS3. This is what is so sad about NHL now as there is options and features that NHL on the PS4 still don’t have that were on the NHL09 on the PS3.

They slowly started killing the online NHL community on the PS3…. I mean I got hyped about this years version and even got a PS4 last summer before it came out basically just for NHL16. Whatever happened to OTP chat lobbies? It’s very sad.. NHL was by far the best sports game in 09 on ps3.. these days it’s near the bottom of the list.. that’s the truth and I have no hope for this series going forward..

[actionhank]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I think this is bang on. I think the hockey video game is a hair above niche title these days. I've been really impressed with what the devs have tried to do—especially Ben Ross. I think a lot of the series' problems just comes down to resources and budget.

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't go and check out the developer back an forth on the official EA NHL forum. Some great insight about gameplay design in there.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/li...r/9427035.page

I think the fact that hockey does fall so far down on the totem pole is what frustrates me. Not that people have expectations for EA, and they may not be able to meet them. But the fact that we don't have the tools to do it ourselves.

One of the biggest things was roster sharing. We've never had an officially supported means of doing that, and when a workaround was found, it was a lot of fun. People dedicated to it could converse with themselves and the community to make a set of attributes that they felt best represented the players in real life, the statistics people wanted in game, and most importantly, worked within the confines of the NHL engine. At the end of the day, we're stuck with the engine they give us. Despite that, people did a lot of great work to make the gameplay as close to realistic as was possible. Through attributes and sliders, people were getting a lot of great gameplay, and stats that matches real life. Something that matters a lot to some. Others care more about the scoreboard (I'm still struggling to dial in the games so that real scoring chances work, but every game isn't a 4-3, 6-4 affair).

I would love it if EA took the opportunity to take advantage of the talents people have, and opened up their gameplay and allowed real sharing. There are people who are willing to make insanely accurate player faces and equipment selections for their favorite teams, and others. There are people who sit on roster moves like hawks, and can give you an up-to-the-minute rundown on any big moves in the league, and minor league players getting called up. There are people (myself included) who would love to recreate national jerseys, and some of the more requested and rare team jerseys in photoshop and add them to the teams.

EA has the team available, and best of all, they don't even have to pay them. Add in releasing those features in an "As is" release format, where they get it working, and how you use it in game is up to you, and they don't even have to bother with supporting it. Just toss up some servers and give people the means to share and create.

EA's on ice gameplay I think has gotten a bit better recently. It's far from perfect, but it's certainly looking better than it was 10 years ago. The graphics are stunning, and really could benefit from better creativity (in terms of player faces, body types, and equipment. It would be great to do custom gloves where you can customize the regions of the gloves, similar to goalie equipment).

There's tons that EA could leave to the community (save themselves the time spent on jerseys, faces, equipment, etc) and then they could focus on the big picture items. It would be awesome.

[TheBigTicket205]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

This is a great post Jake... I agree 100% with a lot of the other post as well... Me personally I'm a huge hockey fan and sim head, and although the NHL series has made strides; I dont feel they are making them at the same rate as other games. I would love more control over they way my game plays and the results I see in gameplay, stats, etc. I think more specific individual sliders that actually work would be huge; as well as complete customization and roster sharing. I know EA doesnt have a budget that rivals 2k, but 2k is on the right track when it comes to how their game is constructed. They allow the consumer to completely modify the game exactly to their liking (offline). Then online is its own seperate thing. I think EA should look into this approach, it would easily satisfy both offline and online gamers.

[azy19]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I want to view stats from other leagues from around the world like the SHL.

Don't forget actually being able to play as a european team. They have the league systems(atleast for the SHL) already in place so I don't see why this isn't here yet.

[DirectFX]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

I agree resources and some budget might not be the same as other sports but FIFA was not a new series it's been around for awhile. Plus many other series have started to take away money/resources like UFC/MMA series. You also forget certain series ended/folded so EA should use the resources and budgets from those games like NCAA Basketball, NCAA Football and MLB series back into established ones so I don't think that's a big drain as series come and go.

I think one game feature which has taken away real resources/budget and development from any EA sports title online or offline and that's Ultimate Team mode, I can't stand it and it seems to get bigger every year and every sports game seems to be suffering as they want to focus on that mode because it makes all the extra money beyond just the starting price . All those packs etc add up and EA obviously choosing that mode over the real backbone/fans/players that keep the series going n growing before Ultimate Team was around

[yankeesgiants]

Re: Greatest Problem Facing The NHL Series

The problem is the series no longer has an identity. When you go back to 09 to about 12, it look like they where going the FIFA route. Acquire a bunch of leagues under the NHL name and create a nice ecosystem. Then HUT happened. From there it seams like the game has been a rudder less ship on a slow death spiral. I honesty don't think '16 is a good or bad game. It just feels like a soulless empty game and I cant put my finger on what the emptiness is.