The problem with Madden isn't the dev's or any other issue besides that they use a bunch of low end technology mashed together to create the game. This engine has lived its lifespan. Until a new engine which more then likely will come out with Madden 18 (#Frostbite which is already old but better then what they have now) drops the dev's hands will continue to be tied. You can only squeeze so much juice out of a lemon.
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Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
roadman,
I've been waiting, far too long.
And I don't need your warnings. I know how EA bashers are treated around here.
I've been around since the MaddenMania days. I've had many a conversation with ChrisS. I'll trust he and the other mods allow members to vent their frustrations occasionally.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by AaronS444; 02-27-2016, 03:42 PM.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
You could say they refactored blocking, pass accuracy and pass coverage. But that's it. They refactored it. As in changed it slightly. Everything is tethered still. It's a tweaking of logic they've used for years. Real time physics was added to existing animations. It's welcome, but not significant progress in that many other games have better physics engines.
Ps2 madden had an EA locker that put the entire franchise mode online back then.
The comprehensive teaching tool was in ps2 as well. They did add some concepts to today's game, but the old mini games allowed you to practice everything from pocket awareness to playing coverage on defense.
Ultimate team is a revenue producing version of ps2 features as well. On the ps2 you could start a franchise with fantasy drafts. As you played different modes you collected coins to purchase cards to collect. You could argue that in some ways the ps2 version was better since people couldn't buy their ways to great teams.
What you call significant progress, I would call just making the game a modernized ps2 Madden.Last edited by kjcheezhead; 02-27-2016, 03:01 PM.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Your opinion simply doesn't hold up whatsoever upon scrutiny of the two versions of the game.
First - that's not what refactor means.You could say they refactored blocking, pass accuracy and pass coverage. But that's it. They refactored it. As in changed it slightly. Everything is tethered still. It's a tweaking of logic they've used for years. Real time physics was added to existing animations. It's welcome, but not significant progress in that many other games have better physics engines.
Second - "refactor" was admittedly poor word choice on my part, I should have said "rewrote" because that's Tiburon actually did.
Third - I challenge you go put PS2 Madden NFL 08 (the last version of that game as far as I know) and PS4 Madden NFL 16 side-by-side and continue to reasonably proclaim that the difference in how things play out in the core gameplay is not dramatic.
What you describe is specifically not online franchise. Online franchises specifically allow for concurrent user actions and games. Sharing a single franchise file over FTP isn't concurrent whatsoever.Ps2 madden had an EA locker that put the entire franchise mode online back then.
I can't play my friend in California in the Super Bowl in a franchise file shared in this manner. Sharing a single franchise file also doesn't allow me to do a live draft with said friend who lives in California.
Present? Yes. Comprehensive? No.The comprehensive teaching tool was in ps2 as well. They did add some concepts to today's game, but the old mini games allowed you to practice everything from pocket awareness to playing coverage on defense.
The Mini-Camp mode that exists on the PS2 games - which included tossing tennis balls at quarterbacks and moving dummy blockers to provide a simple pantomime of run plays - doesn't hold a candle to Skills Trainer, which actually teaches real football. Mini-Camp can't begin to make that claim; it only teaches how to use the basic controls of the game - how to intercept passes, how to break tackles, how to throw different types of passes. It specifically does not teach how a Cover 2 defense works, how to identify it, and how to attack.
Put simply: Mini-Camp was designed to teach people the game mechanics of Madden, the video game. Skills Trainer was designed to teach people the strategy of American football. The difference in design goals and implementation is immediately apparent in how the two modes play out. Skills Trainer was specifically built to allow those who didn't know how to play football to have some mechanism to learn and have success in response to Madden NFL's emerging market overseas. Mini-Camp can't begin to make the claim of teaching people football strategy because it wasn't built to do that on any level.
One - you can still start franchises with fantasy drafts. That was one of the very first additions to the new Connected Franchise, having been added into Madden NFL 13 with a title update upon popular demand.Ultimate team is a revenue producing version of ps2 features as well. On the ps2 you could start a franchise with fantasy drafts. As you played different modes you collected coins to purchase cards to collect. You could argue that in some ways the ps2 version was better since people couldn't buy their ways to great teams.
Two - the Madden cards from those old games don't have any remotely similar function as cards do in Ultimate Team. The cards in the old games were cheats and temporary ratings boosts. No such thing exists in Ultimate Team, and in fact the cards you have affects the team you can put on the field. Ultimate Team also have components such as solo challenges, collections, and special edition cards which aren't represented at all in the old card system.
If we're going to criticize Madden, its accessibility, and its progress - and there are plenty of places to criticize it - let's at least have a based-in-reality description of what the thing is.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Madden 08 PC is the best version of this game, thanks to the modding community.
What is lost on you, and EA, there is an entire generation that has grown up playing console football. NES, SNES, Sega, PS2.. Massive pixels to full HD.
We can adapt to any type of gameplay. Every version has its quirks.. And money plays.. And glitches.
I won't live and die by gameplay. It's great in 15 and 16. I'd venture to say the best ever.
But everything else doesn't hold up against past versions. 2005 has better features than current versions. An 11 year old product.
That is rediculous.
But it sells beacuse it's the only show in town.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkComment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Subjective, but I'm glad you found something you enjoy. Personally, as much as I love modding games, I can't bear to play Madden 08 anymore.
I mean, I'm not a Tecmo Bowl baby, but the first football game I played was NFL Quarterback Club on the Sega Genesis. To that I'm part of this very generation you speak of. I'm also plenty capable of looking beyond shiny graphics to make a personal value judgment about a game.What is lost on you, and EA, there is an entire generation that has grown up playing console football. NES, SNES, Sega, PS2.. Massive pixels to full HD.
Also subjective, but personally I don't see much of a contest between the modes in Madden 05 and Madden 16, especially with respect to making the game more accessible to new players and growing the Madden and football community. This problem is widespread across all simulation sports games, but as far as I know only Madden has actively engaged the issue.But everything else doesn't hold up against past versions. 2005 has better features than current versions. An 11 year old product.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
I know where AaronS is coming from. I totally understand that EA wants to cater to the Noobs, because that is what the NFL has been doing for years. EA wants to get new users because they know that the fans who have been there for awhile, will continue to be there. Especially since there is no other football game on the market.
Look at the NFL for example...
It can be argued, but their breast cancer awareness month is used to market to women. It allows them to sell pink versions of whatever team they want. They make more money, and it appeals to women.
Hispanic Heritage Month... Everyone knows that Hispanics lean hard towards to futbol. They are going to keep having games in Mexico City and trying to expand to that community for years to come, because we see how huge soccer/ futbol is to a lot of the Latin countries.
And there is a reason they keep on having games in London. Ever since the fall of the European Football League, the NFL has been trying to get Europe, and especially out English speaking counterparts, the U.K. On board with the sport.
EA is going to do much of the same with their game. As soon as you get a new customer, it is a lot easier to retain that consumer.
How many people come to these forums each year and bash EA, Madden, and this game every year, and yet they still come back and buy the game each year? A lot. Because we have no where else to take our business, but we love gaming, and the game of football that much to continue playing our only option.
Until EA has competition, I think we aren't going to see any major leaps made in this game. We are going to see things added like "one button mode" in an exhibition game over a much more in depth CFM.
I'm not knocking them for catering to new madden players, because I was once that 7 year old who learned football through playing Madden 64, and I'm sure there is some kid learning the game through Madden 16.
However, I would love to see Maddens long time users, and one of it oldest game modes, franchise/CFM get the attention they deserve. I mean if I can get a 5% discount for being a Verizon wireless customer for 15 years, I think madden can find a way to build on a little more for its long time gamers.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Let's get back to the topic of the story.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Refactor was the right word imo. I know what it means. They changed or modified existing code and improved it. If they did rewrite it, it didn't change how those areas operate at their core.
That's ps2 Madden 12. Dramatic difference of the core gameplay? Hardly. Madden 16 has hd graphics, better animations and subtle changes like jostling but the core is the same. The defensive changes / audibles are the same options. Same x for x wr passing controls. The old game had swat ball vs int, the new game is play ball vs play wr. The new catch choices are really the only missing, but ps2 had qb cone and lead blocking so....
Also the EA locker did allow online games. You and your friend most certainly could play the super bowl as opponents. You and your opponent would link up in a match up, play the game and then the results would go back to the main file the commish took care of. The draft wasn't possible iirc, but the that was about the only franchise feature that wasn't possible.Comment
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Great write up. I'm a massive noob too. I understand more and more about the game and what is going on, but for me it's the controls and knowing what I'm meant to be doing. Maybe that's because I have poor stick skills, but maybe you can also talk about how you've transitioned not just in letting the coach suggestions dictate your play calling, but if you've progressed in understanding the game in order to better your performance? I use coach mode mainly because of the fact that if I try to play I'm exactly like you and get picked apart both on offence and defence.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
Madden's version of RTP doesn't work well, never has. Is it better today than it was in Madden 13? Absolutely, but it had nowhere to go but up from that point, because it was utterly horrendous then. Still, lots of issues and years of video evidence to support the reality that it still has tons of issues. They also weren't the first to do it, so they're neither a trailblazer nor an innovator with that feature.
Blocking has fatal flaws and again lots of video evidence over many years to support that truth. It's not even debatable for anyone with just a cursory knowledge of football. Can't call it innovation when older games did it far better. What that is called is regression.
Passing accuracy has certainly improved relative to Madden's own situation, but innovated? I'm not sure I see actual innovation there.
Pass coverage has seen improvements, but there is also lots of video evidence showing new flaws and old standing flaws that have never been fixed, so there is certainly nothing innovative happening there.
Ultimate Team is a money-maker for them and it caters to a different type of fan than the sim gamer. I also can't ignore the fact they don't put much effort into making authentic legends (wrong faces, wrong equipment, wrong body types, wrong jersey styles) and since they're a big part of the MUT game I have to take huge points off for those inexcusable errors, but really they're not even errors there, those are just a lack of effort entirely when a player looks absolutely nothing at all like his historic self.
I respect your right to an opinion and all, but that kind of hyperbole is WAAAAY overboard for something so ordinary. If that constitutes innovation, then 11 years of no competition has certainly lowered the bar in football gaming to the lowest ground-level of earth. I mean, the bar has been lowered anyway, and I think anyone being honest would agree, but I'm saying that kind of praise for a basic feature that only casuals and newbies would need is a case example of just how low standards have gotten.
The sad reality for Madden is that people aren't even really expecting innovation so much as they're just expecting them to do things that were done in other football games that Madden currently doesn't do for reasons that make no sense and none of their public personalities have ever responded to with reasoning for it that was plausible. Also, a lot of us are just wanting them to fix things that have been broken or not working properly in Madden for a long time. Unfortunately, we pretty much get neither and instead get things like MUT, Skills Trainer, Draft Champions, and Gauntlet, and it only keeps the cycle going as their efforts seem to keep going in directions that nobody is asking for.
The game has become more about what's not in it than it has become about what is, and that to me should be embarrassing to a development team but their public persona makes it appear that they don't see a problem and have a fundamentally different perspective than sim gamers have where the things we ask for are deemed practically meaningless and worthy of discredit and challenge even when undeniable visual evidence is presented to them as it has been done countless times. I'm often left dumbfounded by how they dismiss some things to the point that I come away hoping it was satirical, but I know it isn't and that's quite troubling.Last edited by X_isBringingSexyBack; 02-29-2016, 11:10 AM.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
I am going to focus on this because it's the only part of your post that is relevant to the topic of this thread. The airing of grievances with Madden in the general case is off-topic so I am not going to respond to that.
I don't know how to put this delicately - you're simply wrong. Skills Trainer is important and innovative. That Madden NFL is the only game attempting anything like it at this point (as far as I know) is significant.
The biggest problem that simulation sports games have on a mass scale is barrier to entry. You have plenty of people who try to play these games who don't understand the sport the game is attempting to represent. They don't know what "hike" means, much less what the proper blocking technique on zone blocking run is. The game developer has a responsibility to teach the user not only the mechanics of the game in question, but also how to effectively use those mechanics to overcome challenges and accomplish feats in the game, and Madden NFL is (again, as far as I know) the only simulation sports game actively engaging this duty.
For example, I don't have an intricate knowledge of basketball, soccer, baseball, or hockey like I do football. As such, even though I recognize that NBA 2K / FIFA / MLB The Show / NHL are doing great things individually as games, I can't begin to enjoy these games because I don't know how to play them and the game makes no effort to teach me how to play. Reasonable minds can beg to differ about how much fault is mine vs the game dev's with respect to how much knowledge I should have brought to the table before starting the game in a demo setting, but the end result is the same - I don't buy the game because I don't understand it and therefore I don't enjoy it.
Madden so obviously going out of its way to teach the mechanics and strategies of football to those who don't have the slightest clue what is otherwise going on is important because it grows the audience of the game and it increases the quality of online competition, which is a net positive for the game's core online modes of Ultimate Team and Connected Franchise. Skills Trainer will also benefit tournament players as the game continues to drive towards authenticity in gameplay and the various exploits and nano blitzes stop working. Heck, the drills are useful even to me, the simulation-style player, because I enjoy partaking in the relevantly devised drills; "practice using Smash against Cover 2", "learn how to use the Curl Flats concept", "how to use the Mills concept against Cover 4", etc. etc.
While Madden Skills Trainer is probably of no value to many people on this board, apparently you included and that's fine, it is objectively important to improving the quality of the game and community long-term. It is perhaps the singular feature in simulation sports games where Madden is far ahead of its peers and leading by example, an example which other sports games absolutely should follow.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 16: A Noob's Perspective
I see where you are coming from, CM Hooe. Madden 64 taught me a lot about football. I learned all the rosters, rules, and basic plays from a video game when I was 7. I remember when I first started to play, I was intimidated because my friends knew way more about the sport than I did. But, through trial and error, I figured it out and eventually became a madden/ football junky.
On top of that, I know I'm not alone in being intimidated by football before being exposed to it. I've spent time in the Middle East and Europe, and they are just as big into sports over there as they are here. Anytime I would talk to someone about sports, I would tell them that I was really into American Football. And almost 100% of the time they would say that they couldn't watch it, because it is too hard to understand what is going on in the game. however, when I was in Istanbul, I would see them selling football jerseys along side basketball jerseys.
So I can totally appreciate EA's stand point of not wanting to get too carried away with making the game of football less harder to understand for a new fan.
That's why we saw them come up the "one button mode". A long time user like me finds in worthless, but when I'm showing my 9 year old cousins how to play madden, it is pretty handy.
In contradiction to making it simpler for the new users, just because you make a game easier, doesn't mean you have to water down the game so much. One thing madden has been terrible at the last few years is customizing the game experience. What madden can do is give the users options. Just like when they came out with One Button Mode, you didn't have to choose this option to play an exhibition game. Just like if someone is new to madden, they can set the features to whatever makes the game easiest for them.
Madden just needs to give its users more options and control over the game that they bought. There isn't a reason madden can't cater to new users and veteran players. Just like there isn't a reason they can't make the online and offline community happy at the same time. I know some people hate when this comes up, but there is a reason NBA2k is voted the best sports game year after year. And that is because they find a way to make their fans happy. I didn't start playing NBA2k until 2014, and the last time I played a basketball game before that was in an arcade in the 90's. But I had no problem picking it up and playing, because the game was easy enough for me to walk into the game and pick things up. I still have a lot to learn, but because of sports video games, I learned a lot about the real sport itself.Comment
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