The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

[avwhitechic]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

In Super Bowl 50, football fans watched the Denver Broncos win a championship with arguably the deepest and deadliest defense to play in the NFL's current Penalty Flag Era (TM). But in Madden NFL 16, gamers won't be able to generate consistent pressure on quarterbacks or shutdown opponents' top receivers using Gary Kubiak's dominant defensive unit (I call them Kubiak's defense, because Madden still doesn't include any coordinators or assistant coaches).



Drive Out, Four Verticals, Inside Zone, Fullback Dive –- those four plays are all it takes to consistently move the chains in Madden NFL 16, even on the hardest difficulty setting (All-Madden), against the highest-rated defenses in the game...



Read More - The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Great well written piece...Madden's scripted game gets in its own way

[SportsGamer94]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Didn't Rex say in a podcast that he was pretty much satisfied with where the gameplay is? That makes me think gameplay isn't going to receive as much attention this year, hope that's not the case but that's how I took it.

[roadman]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Didn't Rex say in a podcast that he was pretty much satisfied with where the gameplay is? That makes me think gameplay isn't going to receive as much attention this year, hope that's not the case but that's how I took it.

I understand how you would take that because that is how it sounded, but I'm sure there will be a few things or more added to game play to market the game.

[SportsGamer94]

I understand how you would take that because that is how it sounded, but I'm sure there will be a few things or more added to game play to market the game.

As you can see from this thread, gameplay needs more than a few things added. I took it as him saying gameplay isn't going to be the main focus anymore.

[roadman]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

As you can see from this thread, gameplay needs more than a few things added. I took it as him saying gameplay isn't going to be the main focus anymore.

Yeah, I know that is how it sounded or how one may take it, but I still feel there will be marketable items for game play.

Just take a look at his twitter feed, people bombard him with game play videos every day. One thing people keep bringing up to him, zones need to be improved.

I don't think I ever said in here that game play doesn't need improvements, the whole game needs improvements all the way around.

[Gridiron]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

I understand how you would take that because that is how it sounded, but I'm sure there will be a few things or more added to game play to market the game.

On the real, the question is always gonna be, will it work right? The air supremacy thing went from good to gimmick when you had dudes sliding and warping into position, and having animations that couldn't be stopped no matter what you did with the WR or DB.

You can't have tandem animations in a sim football game. Why would they record them together like that and think it's a good idea? After people complained about all the crazy catches being made, they toned that part down at least, but it still didn't fix the animations being stuck together. That part ruined the whole feature.

I just wanna see them do one thing that works right. It's like, even when they add a good idea, they still find a way to mess it up.

[roadman]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

On the real, the question is always gonna be, will it work right? The air supremacy thing went from good to gimmick when you had dudes sliding and warping into position, and having animations that couldn't be stopped no matter what you did with the WR or DB.

You can't have tandem animations in a sim football game. Why would they record them together like that and think it's a good idea? After people complained about all the crazy catches being made, they toned that part down at least, but it still didn't fix the animations being stuck together. That part ruined the whole feature.

I just wanna see them do one thing that works right. It's like, even when they add a good idea, they still find a way to mess it up.

Agreed, I will say, though, this is the first time in years, that I haven't tinkered with sliders for several months to get the way I play the game. Gone were the days of messing with sliders till Thanksgiving.

And that is important to me, in addition, I'm still playing the game, which is unusual for me. I'm usually done by the Super Bowl or earlier.

[Hooe]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

You can't have tandem animations in a sim football game.

Says who? Is this a hard-and-fast rule somewhere in video game development I'm unaware of, in which case are all the other sports games doing it wrong too since they also have multiple-actor animations?

Why would they record them together like that and think it's a good idea?

Clearly, Tiburon thought two-man animation tech was an ideal path to achieve a gameplay feature a lot of their hardcore fans wanted - battles between WRs and DBs for passes - in a way that synergized with their current tech base, was achievable in a single cycle, and would deliver a new means for players to interact with the game (the RAC / Aggressive / Possession catches vs Play Ball / Play Man control mechanics). The decisions they make as to how to build their game aren't made in a vacuum.

After people complained about all the crazy catches being made, they toned that part down at least, but it still didn't fix the animations being stuck together. That part ruined the whole feature.

Considering the number of people across the Madden and general video game community who praised the new catch gameplay mechanics, I don't think tandem animations "ruined" anything.

There are things to improve - aggressive catch chances probably still need tuning as you alluded to, and there's no dedicated Swat Ball button as far as I know (a big missing piece in the defensive gameplay mechanics of the feature) - but to suggest the feature is an abject failure isn't intellectually honest.

I just wanna see them do one thing that works right.

There's plenty in Madden NFL 16 that "works right" at this point. There's still plenty more work to do to achieve the shared goal of "sim football" - I made a post in this thread saying as much - but this isn't 2007, Madden 16 is a compelling football video game that stands up on its own two feet now.

[Gridiron]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Agreed, I will say, though, this is the first time in years, that I haven't tinkered with sliders for several months to get the way I play the game. Gone were the days of messing with sliders till Thanksgiving.

And that is important to me, in addition, I'm still playing the game, which is unusual for me. I'm usually done by the Super Bowl or earlier.

I got a lotta play outta Madden this year too, I can't front, but I been caught up in First-Person Football in 2K5 lately, not sure when I'm going back to Madden. Hell, they have defensive camera in Madden, but first-person football in Madden would be the next level. Makes me mad that Madden for the last two generations isn't leading the pack, it's chasing the past.

[Gridiron]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Says who? Is this a hard-and-fast rule somewhere in video game development I'm unaware of, in which case are all the other sports games doing it wrong too since they also have multiple-actor animations?

Well, then Tiburon is doing it wrong. I don't remember another football game where two players regularly warped, slided, twisted, and turned in mid-air to adjust for a catch or just for an interaction to play out, and for it to happen nearly every single time. Never seen it in real life either since it defies the laws of physics, and that's the "says who" part.

If it's a sim, it should play like one. I didn't mind this kinda stuff in Blitz The League, but that was an arcade game, the expectations were different. In a sim game, that's just garbage.

Clearly, Tiburon thought two-man animation tech was an ideal path to achieve a gameplay feature a lot of their hardcore fans wanted

They thought.

Considering the number of people across the Madden and general video game community who praised the new catch gameplay mechanics, I don't think tandem animations "ruined" anything.

Totally disagree. When Darrelle Revis (or any other top NFL Corner) can't get proper position on a garbage WR (running step for step with that garbage WR) because he's stuck in a tandem animation that was predetermined for him to lose the battle, yeah, that's trash, unless the goal isn't sim football in which case it wouldn't matter. And then to have it happen over and over again takes it further. People have lost games because of junk like that. How is any of that okay?

There are things to improve - aggressive catch chances probably still need tuning as you alluded to, and there's no dedicated Swat Ball button as far as I know (a big missing piece in the defensive gameplay mechanics of the feature) - but to suggest the feature is an abject failure isn't intellectually honest.

No, to suggest the opposite isn't. An idea being good isn't enough, it has to work properly and not hinder the authenticity of the sport. Warping, sliding, twisting, turning, and taking players out of position just so the WR can make a catch or just to make sure that a very canned animation sequence can play is laughably bad. I don't know how anybody can honestly defend something like that in good conscience.

There's plenty in Madden NFL 16 that "works right" at this point. There's still plenty more work to do to achieve the shared goal of "sim football" - I made a post in this thread saying as much - but this isn't 2007, Madden 16 is a compelling football video game that stands up on its own two feet now.

Until the o-line situation is fixed coupled with fixing the AI to not do so many ridiculous things like this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tNqdK2q4SC0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pkccTOs8tlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Then we'll be closer to sim, way more than where we are now. And now they need to do something about these WR/DB interactions, whatever else works is only passable, but it's still far away from a sim of football at any level of the sport because the core of football is played upfront and it's not right in Madden. When that's wrong everything breaks down from there. That's why trying to do all these other add-ins to how the game is played are pointless in the grand scheme of things. They wind up just jamming something in and the outcome is warping, sliding, twisting, and turning or some other shenanigans that show it doesn't fit.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player.

I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

[SolidSquid]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Yeah, I know that is how it sounded or how one may take it, but I still feel there will be marketable items for game play.

Just take a look at his twitter feed, people bombard him with game play videos every day. One thing people keep bringing up to him, zones need to be improved.

I don't think I ever said in here that game play doesn't need improvements, the whole game needs improvements all the way around.

Yea something is wrong with zone AI. The biggest issues are guys still guarding zones that have zero threat to them and guys not breaking when the qb starts to throw. I can't count how many time I see defenders not breaking on the ball until the wr has made the catch.

[SolidSquid]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player.

I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

I def agree with this but at the same time there are still too many instances of sub par pass blockers stone walling elite pass rushers. The problem is there no reasons to make adjustments, in real football when a good pass rushers goes against a sub par pass blocker there is help in terms of chips, doubles, and slides. These simply aren't in madden( the chip block animation is but there is no way to actually call it and set it up).

[khaliib]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

^^^ In Regards to the OL blocking still being bad in Madden, I have to agree 110%...And it doesn't matter the AWR or Pass or Run block ratings; there are many missed blocks that are so badly missed, you would never even see it in the NFL, by the worst OL player.

I hope EA/Tiburon continue to work at making the OL/DL interaction better..It has gotten better in the past couple years, but still needs a lot of attention.

1) This is largely do to using old school code that uses a static radius metric in regard/relation to the "LOS" for each blocking position on the "OL" to give a perception of a formed "pocket/arc".

- that's why "C" are rarely driven backwards, as there radius from the LOS is very small.
- G's have a slightly larger radius than C, but not much.
- T's have the greatest radius (which is why they're the only position that has blocking interaction that extends more than 4 yrds behind the LOS)

The OL will not break away from this "pocket" forming rule.
OL, TE's and RB's will slide and/or break out of blocking interactions to fulfill.
- even the RB's have a set radius and will not be driven backwards further than for the sake of the "pocket".

2) Reacting needs to be reversed.
- currently the DL/OLB's react only after the OL has moved.
- there is a very visible delay by the DL when the ball is snapped so the rule can take affect.
- even "Jump Snap" is marginalized to adhere to the rule.
- DL should lead into blocking interactions, not the OL.

3) Timing needs to be tuned (relating this with the OP)
- QB drop back is way too fast in relation to the defensive rush.
- this throws everything off because both AI and Hum QB's are "waiting" as the other aspects of the play, play catch up.

Much of the frustration is just dealing with aspects of "old code" that limit/hinder the desires they want to achieve.

Hopefully we will see a huge jump/change in M17!!!

[jfsolo]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

1) This is largely do to using old school code that uses a static radius metric in regard/relation to the "LOS" for each blocking position on the "OL" to give a perception of a formed "pocket/arc".





- that's why "C" are rarely driven backwards, as there radius from the LOS is very small.


- G's have a slightly larger radius than C, but not much.


- T's have the greatest radius (which is why they're the only position that has blocking interaction that extends more than 4 yrds behind the LOS)





The OL will not break away from this "pocket" forming rule.


OL, TE's and RB's will slide and/or break out of blocking interactions to fulfill.


- even the RB's have a set radius and will not be driven backwards further than for the sake of the "pocket".





2) Reacting needs to be reversed.


- currently the DL/OLB's react only after the OL has moved.


- there is a very visible delay by the DL when the ball is snapped so the rule can take affect.


- even "Jump Snap" is marginalized to adhere to the rule.


- DL should lead into blocking interactions, not the OL.





3) Timing needs to be tuned (relating this with the OP)


- QB drop back is way too fast in relation to the defensive rush.


- this throws everything off because both AI and Hum QB's are "waiting" as the other aspects of the play, play catch up.





Much of the frustration is just dealing with aspects of "old code" that limit/hinder the desires they want to achieve.





Hopefully we will see a huge jump/change in M17!!!

Given the scope of what needs to be addressed, I'm not optimistic of a huge jump happening, but I do hope that at least some of the most static elements will be improved in some fashion.