H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

[aarondmsu]

I am sure we have had threads on this previously, but it is good to update our views now that we have had a few weeks with the new version of the game.


Does anybody see these attributes having an impact on non-simulated games or do you think they are there purely for simulation purposes?

[Haansen]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Cardinalbird made a video about this. Seems like the size of the PCI is effected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySFTovzyjA

[cardinalbird5]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

I have videos on three of the four. I plan to do BB/9 as well.

Make sure to watch the vids and I will sum up my opinions on how valuable they are at the bottom...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cySFTovzyjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mEUuNRuDqfc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OxX1Kyo-1ow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

H/9 and K/9 are the most important IMO. They counteract the hitter's contact and plate vision, respectively, by modifying them. For example, lets say SDS decides that a 99 H/9=10% modification and 50 H/9= 3% modification to the respective opponent's attribute. Lets say you have a pitcher that has 99 k/9 and 99 h/9 vs a hitter that 99 contact/99 plate vision. With the pitchers H/9 and K/9, the new opponents contact would now be 89 contact and 89 plate vision. Now lets say we have a new pitcher that has 50 k/9 and 50 h/9...now your opponents hitter is still at 97 contact and 97 plate vision. That is a difference of 8 raw points.

That is just an example of how the modifiers work (or how I believe they work), so I don't know the exact percentages they use but I'd guess it is 10-20 pct. In short, it shrinkens your opponents' PCI and makes it more difficult for them to hit line drives, hit the ball hard, and put the ball in play. Thus, they are extremely important.

BB/9 affects your consistency of throwing accurate pitches. The actual individual pitch control for each pitch affects how easy it is for that pitcher to throw that pitch with any given pitching interface. A high BB/9, in general, will give you more consistency where you are aiming the pitch regardless of how well you execute your pitching interface. Of course, if you can get perfect and precise inputs more consistently then that will help a lot too.

To give an example of the differences...a pitcher with a high BB/9 and high individual pitch control will have an easy time executing their interface with precise inputs, as well as, have the pitch generally go where they intended for it go.

A pitcher with low bb/9 and high pitch control...will still have an easy time of executing their interface and get perfect releases, however if you slightly miss or mess up on your interface you will be punished even more and even when you get perfect inputs you still may not hit your spots perfectly.

A pitcher with a high bb/9 and low individual pitch control...will have a tough time of executing their interface but the pitch will still generally go where they intend to throw it even w/o perfect inputs. You are punished less.

A pitcher with low bb/9 and low control...will have a tough time of executing the interface and the pitches will go all over the place.

Also...keep in mind they added precision input engine to their gameplay so that affects pitching too. Users are rewarded more for precise inputs and punished for mediocre/bad inputs. They sort of degrades the BB/9 attribute a bit, but you can still definitely tell a difference.

Lastly, confidence and each pitch has a specific tolerance to how easily you can execute your interface and hit your spots.

If you want to test it out then edit a pitcher to max bb/9, max control, no bb/9 and no control...and you'll see for yourself.

Lastly, HR/9 does nothing in gameplay.....so never train it for RTTS and neglect it for DD. It does have an impact for sims, so it still important if you sim franchise games.

[EmerilLIVE]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Lastly, HR/9 does nothing in gameplay.....so never train it for RTTS and neglect it for DD. It does have an impact for sims, so it still important if you sim franchise games.

Wow, I always assumed that this counteracted power the way that H/9 counteracted contact.

[aarondmsu]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Thanks guys. So in summary, yes, they do definitely have a tangible effect on the game, even in non-simulation. I just wanted to make sure before I spent training points on those categories for my RTTS.

[KBLover]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Wow, I always assumed that this counteracted power the way that H/9 counteracted contact.

I wish it would. Not sure why it does nothing in played games...seems silly.

[nomo17k]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Wow, I always assumed that this counteracted power the way that H/9 counteracted contact.

I think the idea is to let individual pitch movement influence certain hit types in gameplay. Guys with pitches that sink hard would be more of ground-ball pitchers and therefore give up less HRs.

Trade off is that in simulated games individual pitch attributes don't have any effect.

[Mike Lowe]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Lastly, HR/9 does nothing in gameplay.....so never train it for RTTS and neglect it for DD. It does have an impact for sims, so it still important if you sim franchise games.

I'm asking sincerely, but is there a source for this? I've noticed HR/9 definitely having an impact in played games in DD where HRs seemingly turn into routine flyouts. With a guy like Bobby Parnell, a bit of a scrub but with 90+ HR/9, it's routine flyouts all over the field when you're playing someone who's only looking for the long ball.

[nomo17k]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

I'm asking sincerely, but is there a source for this? I've noticed HR/9 definitely having an impact in played games in DD where HRs seemingly turn into routine flyouts. With a guy like Bobby Parnell, a bit of a scrub but with 90+ HR/9, it's routine flyouts all over the field when you're playing someone who's only looking for the long ball.

It is B Ma who mentioned this a couple times. You might be able to dig out the post from the last gen forum here or theshownation.com forum (although I think the latter deletes the whole forum every year and the info may already be lost).

[adamjsav]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

I'm asking sincerely, but is there a source for this? I've noticed HR/9 definitely having an impact in played games in DD where HRs seemingly turn into routine flyouts. With a guy like Bobby Parnell, a bit of a scrub but with 90+ HR/9, it's routine flyouts all over the field when you're playing someone who's only looking for the long ball.

If you watch his video above, he has a screenshot from a developer of the game confirming in a forum post that HR/9 has absolutely no impact whatsoever in gameplay situations. Only simulation.

[Shpati]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Want to thank cardinalbird5 for figuring all those things out and posting it in those videos. That really helps.

So... In RTTS I really shouldn't upgrade control for each pitch type? Just upgrade B/9? I just use pitching meter.

Don't you guys think B/9, K/9, HR/9 are too much stats on top of your velocity, control, and break for each pitch type?

Before I did RTTS, I thought B/9, H/9, S/9, and HR/9 were just measurements of all the pitcher's pitches or something. Like if you have a pitcher who throws average speed pitches but with movement (Bartolo Colon for example) but with lot of command, he'd have a good B/9 and H/9. Then somebody who throws fast with movement, but doesn't really have command would have bad B/9, but would have good S/9 and H/9.

It just seems a little overkill and confusing to me to have all those stats. Especially the HR/9 stat, since it doesn't even affect gameplay.

[KBLover]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

Don't you guys think B/9, K/9, HR/9 are too much stats on top of your velocity, control, and break for each pitch type?

I think you could do a system where pitch ratings "speak" for all those /9 - you could have a H/9 and then pitch ratings. That probably could work - it's pretty much what PYS does. Each pitch has a "stuff" rating (K's and H's allowed due to pitch quality/deception), Command rating (BB's, H's allowed due to location ability), and a movement level (K's, H allowed due to deception/difficult for batters to square up).

HR are governed by pitch location/quality and the batter's trajectory (basically, the general angle batters tend to hit balls), quality of contact (how well the sweet spots of the bat contacts the ball and how), quality of timing, power rating, and type of swing the batter takes (power vs contact).

The thing, though, is that in The Show, the PCI is not a bat. It would be really, really hard to locate a pitch to where the PCI can't touch it except for low-rated contact hitters (heck, some hitters have PCIs that pretty much cover the entire zone). So that leaves more abstraction in the model, which then needs randomness to help resolve.

Pitch command is the same way for Pulse and Classic interfaces. Meter gives the most control. Analog probably as well.

So for a system like that, I'd prefer more ratings to help guide the outcome of the model. In that light, given how The Show currently handles batting, I'd prefer to keep all the ratings and make them all equally strong (so they all can matter).

I wouldn't be adverse to a well-done redesign, but assuming what we have now is basically just the way it's going to be, more data, not less, going into the model is better, imo.

The answer for HR/9 is not to eliminate it, but...make it matter to the game play. Maybe turn it into the GB% rating (can't give up a HR on a ground ball, so high HR/9 would be a high GB%)

[Mike3207]

Re: H/9, K/9, HR/9, BB/9

H/9 and K/9 are the most important IMO. They counteract the hitter's contact and plate vision, respectively, by modifying them. For example, lets say SDS decides that a 99 H/9=10% modification and 50 H/9= 3% modification to the respective opponent's attribute. Lets say you have a pitcher that has 99 k/9 and 99 h/9 vs a hitter that 99 contact/99 plate vision. With the pitchers H/9 and K/9, the new opponents contact would now be 89 contact and 89 plate vision. Now lets say we have a new pitcher that has 50 k/9 and 50 h/9...now your opponents hitter is still at 97 contact and 97 plate vision. That is a difference of 8 raw points.

That is just an example of how the modifiers work (or how I believe they work), so I don't know the exact percentages they use but I'd guess it is 10-20 pct. In short, it shrinkens your opponents' PCI and makes it more difficult for them to hit line drives, hit the ball hard, and put the ball in play. Thus, they are extremely important.

Looking at this from another angle-if H/9 and K/9 are most important for a pitcher to neutralize contact and plate vision for a hitter, aren't contact and plate vision the priority for position players to maximize asap? I'm assuming that's the case, even if you don't use zone or pci, those ratings will still work off of each other.

Of course, if you want to add the perks, you might put some points in attributes sufficient to get the basic perks, like the check swing one for Plate Discipline.