Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

[jfsolo]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

I think what could help this is if there were a greater sense of self-preservation for individual players embedded in the physics, they should try to shield themselves better when they get into big pileups and in 100% certain "I am getting tackled" situations.

If the players were more actively defending themselves we might see fewer unrealistically violent situations (relative to the real-life NFL, at least).

This would add so much to the game IMO. The fear of getting injured is a very big part of sports. So many plays are not made because of the very normal desire to avoid getting hurt badly. It needs to play a bigger role in all sports games. And if users don't exercise reasonable caution with players that they are controlling, then those players should be getting injured a lot more and with more severe injuries too.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

Bring back the big hits and realism. Something was removed in 16 that totally nerfs my pleasure of making a receiver across the middle pay for his actions. Bring back the helmets being nocked off. They come off in real life for Pete's sake.

Does anyone even remember the last Madden where helmets popped off? I would say maybe 05 or 06, hasn't been in the game for years.

[bigd51]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.

In his defense, he did specify all contact:

Ive been wanting companies to get rid of animations for years. Theyre holding graphical fidelity up, but hold down the realism of the game. Eventually, everything all contact in any sports game needs to be fully dynamic and physics based - its the only way of the future. Id be willing to keep graphics the way they are now, and have EA, 2K, SCEA and the like only work on physics and AI. I'm so done with canned animations and limited outcomes.

[half-fast]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

I don't see how you can get rid of animations completely in any game. Even Backbreaker limited its physics implementation to collisions. Players still have to run, throw, attempt to catch, swat, etc. You need animations for all that stuff.

You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion.

You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.

[mestevo]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

You actually can get rid of all animations, 100%, but it takes far too much processing power to do it in any kind of meaningful way at the moment, in my opinion.

You can literally create a wireframe person that you can train to learn how to walk, jump, turn, whatever, and the ai has to do the math to make the limbs do exactly that. Add in some of the player stats and some slight random variation and you can literally get a muscle pull that is legit, basically just by turning awkwardly, not a random muscle pull dice roll.

Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week.

Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.

[half-fast]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

Except you can pull a muscle without anything awkward. Your season can end on a cut that you do/practice several dozen times over the course of a week.

Don't see why a dice roll triggers some of you, it will never go away, just ideally be influenced by ability/stats.

I dont believe I said it bothered me, just that physics based is better, and it is. In college I had a project where I had to create a wire-frame, self-calculating stick man. It's creepy at how lifelike the movements are, even though its just a stickman. Eventually, sports game will lose animations, the tech is there,and has been for a while, its just not quite practical yet, and games dont have enough competition to make it happen at the moment.

[Bigolenutz]

As a Offline CFM only mode player the addition of penalties for late/illegal hits could add some realism to the game, but I don't see it flying with the NFL to get it in the game. Also this would open a can of worms of having ratings for sportsmanship/character which the NFLPA would have none of.

Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)

[roadman]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

Personally EA have a ton of other more important issues to resolve before tackling this, like the getting the clock to stop when I run out of bounds, OC & DC's, (insert features that have been taken out of previous games)

The clock stopping when running out of bounds? I'm pretty sure EA is getting the ruling right if this is what you are referring to.

The official ruling that the play clock shouldn't resume until the ball is hiked is only when there is less than 2 minutes left in the first half and under 5 minutes in the second half.

Scrimmage Down
Article 2Following any timeout (3-36), the game clock shall be started on a scrimmage down when the ball is
next snapped, except in the following situations:
(a) Whenever a runner goes out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, the game clock is started when
an official spots the ball at the inbounds spot, and the Referee gives the signal to start the game
clock, except that the clock will start on the snap:
(1) after a change of possession;
(2) after the two-minute warning of the first half; or
(3) inside the last five minutes of the second half.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/7_Rule4_Game_Timing.pdf

[SolidSquid]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

Not to speak for the author, but I think the issue highlighted via the embedded video is the late cleanup hits that come well after the whistle.

The thing is the hit technically wasn't late bc the ball carrier was "resting" on a tacklers legs so to the game the ball carrier is not down and the whistle hasn't blown which is why the second defender flies in like that. It's important to remember the reason they added his "clean up" hits is bc we were all tired of seeing 10 defenders just standing around while a tackle animation played out.

[mrprice33]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

You can clearly hear the whistle a full second before the defender launches himself into the receiver.

[Gridiron]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

What dangerous hits? In Madden, the players rarely even make actual contact with each other:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ERqT0yqdgW4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And when they do, it's only done barely, so barely that the hit reaction is totally over the top:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_dh8dmvagIo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Even the WWE is more believable. What's crazy is that I thought real-time physics were supposed to eliminate that, and if I recall in Madden 12 (before Madden had RTP) the collision detection was way more precise to the point that it was impressive. How did they manage to add RTP and go backwards? Even with BackBreaker, a complete garbage game, the players were making actual contact.

[DaveDQ]

I feel like Madden 16 is the best Madden yet (in terms of physics). It has been a long time coming too. And, I am concerned that they can't handle it. I don't mean to be disrespectful towards developers etc.. I just don't trust that EA Sports can handle incorporating illegal hits and then having the refs throwing a flag for such things. So, I'd rather see them continue to polish physics and continue to build on what they have right now, then to veer off an include an illegal hit system. And I certainly don't want to see the game go back to defenders rolling off of players instead of tackling.

I also feel like the article leans towards making a big deal out of nothing. How many of us play this game and seriously think this is a major issue? "The days of" rant is a bit much for me. Is this something to be that passionate about?

[Gridiron]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

I feel like Madden 16 is the best Madden yet (in terms of physics). It has been a long time coming too. And, I am concerned that they can't handle it. I don't mean to be disrespectful towards developers etc.. I just don't trust that EA Sports can handle incorporating illegal hits and then having the refs throwing a flag for such things. So, I'd rather see them continue to polish physics and continue to build on what they have right now, then to veer off an include an illegal hit system. And I certainly don't want to see the game go back to defenders rolling off of players instead of tackling.

I also feel like the article leans towards making a big deal out of nothing. How many of us play this game and seriously think this is a major issue? "The days of" rant is a bit much for me. Is this something to be that passionate about?

Hmmmm. I think the lack of actual contact on hits, combined with the lack of wrapping up and using proper leverage that you have to in order to bring down a grown man, are all issues to be concerned with in this game. There are so many hits where a guy just runs into a guy or pushes him down, or shoulder shrugs a big hit instead of actually tackling. I just wonder how they look at that stuff internally and go "Yep, that's a wrap. We nailed it, put that in."

I just want to see hits and basic tackles I actually see in real life, and Madden does have some, just too few of them because either the hit itself is often unrealistic or the reaction to the hit is unrealistic.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

What dangerous hits? In Madden, the players rarely even make actual contact with each other:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ERqT0yqdgW4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And when they do, it's only done barely, so barely that the hit reaction is totally over the top:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_dh8dmvagIo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Even the WWE is more believable. What's crazy is that I thought real-time physics were supposed to eliminate that, and if I recall in Madden 12 (before Madden had RTP) the collision detection was way more precise to the point that it was impressive. How did they manage to add RTP and go backwards? Even with BackBreaker, a complete garbage game, the players were making actual contact.

This is because weight and momentum still don't matter. It's why a cornerback can take on any RB with a full head of steam and bring him down. Once players are in that "contact zone" the animations take over.

[bigd51]

Re: Do You Care About Dangerous Hits in Madden?

I'll say it never crossed my mind until reading this article.

I'll also say, another reason I don't care about the welfare of the players in Madden is because EA does a horrendous job of making me care about them in the first place, outside of some numbers.

These guys don't give interviews, randomly jump over fences in their spare time to throw a ball around with some school yard kids on recess, they don't get suspended for anything, "news" about the players/hall of fame votes/retiring players is constricted to one, maybe two, extremely vague sentences about how long they played but not why they were considered a Hall of Famer, no news about charitable work.

The entire game just has zero character. None. And I'm not talking about gameplay presentation, either. I don't give a mess about on field cutscenes and highlights and all that jazz. I'm talking about presentation and immersion outside of gameplay. These players are completely lifeless off the field, so why should I care about their life on it?

So, no, the hits don't bother me because of "safety" concerns. What does offend me about those gif's in the OP, especially in the last gif, is how insanely stupid those players look around the pile and how anytime physics takes over instead of an animation, the player loses every ounce of motor function and simply topple over like a wilted flower.

You either have physics take over and see players tossing themselves carelessly around like fish jumping out of water, or you have animations take over and see players B-lining to the ballcarrier at mach speed only to instantly lose all momentum by getting sucked into a gang tackling animation. There has to be a way to utilize both, cohesively. Like physics takes over from the point of contact based on speed and direction to determine which way momentum will take the ballcarriers, then after like a split second, animations take over so players can take back control of their limbs to finish the process with all motor function intact. Only that would need an extensive animation library, much more than the one they have now, I would assume. Or it may just not be that time for sports games yet.

I don't know if they could, or even have the slightest idea how they could... but I hope they figure out something because the ragdoll affect is killing it for me right now.