Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

[bjanko5]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

And Maddens score should reflect that. You don't count an injury when grading their abilities. I expect Jaylon Smith to be in the top 5 of highest overall rookies. My order would go like this.

1. Leramy Tunsil
2. Jaylon Smith
T3. Ezekiel Elliot
T3. Jalen Ramsey
T5. Myles Jack
T5 Joey Bosa

Something like that. It's a given that some of those players will have the same overall so I threw in some ties.

Edit: it's funny that Jacksonville and Dallas would get 2 players in the top five but that's just how this year's draft worked out. I've seen Jaylon Smith the number 1 ranked player and I've also seen Myles Jack the number 1 overall player by scouts. Madden shouldn't let their injuries and being selected in the 2nd round along with 2 franchises getting 2 in the top 5 affect that. If they do I would be dissapointed.

I could definitely see Tunsil having the highest rating. Off the field issues are the main reason he dropped, and while valid, aren't going to affect his ratings.

[Ampking101]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

I thought we have been debating on many topics. I think i debated those 3 running backs you mentioned pretty fairly. You used two guys who showed great potential in the NFL who had injuries destroy their careers and one guy who put on so much weight because of a poor work habit he became a shell of his former self. I even said Ezekiel Elliot by all a counts will not be that guy. I debated with you whether a running back at 4 who enters a perfect situation and helps dallas achieve what they want to do on offense greatly was a better pick and more worthy pick than a player who Dallas might considered a safety. Dallas's own DB coach said that. So is a great running back a bigger reach for Dallas at 4 or a great safety? Neither are considered positions that should go that high without the rare exception. Ezekiel Elliot has been called that rare exception. Todd Gurley if not for his injury probably goes higher in the top ten and he was considered that rare exception. It's very possible Leanord Fornuete will go top five as well. I am not sure Ezekiel Elliot slides very far if Dallas doesn't take him at 4. Mock Drafts had him going anywhere from 4 all the way to 13. So who knows. We sure dont.

I think he could become the best pick in the draft because he is the most absolutely best fit for the team that picked him in the draft. I have yet to hear one person say someone other than Ezekiel Elliot is their pick for offensive rookie of the year. I have heard them say "we'll other than Zeke who is your pick" that's how great of a fit he is and I am translating that to a very fair pick for the pick of the draft. I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to force mine on yours. I love the debates we have had and I think you have made some great points as well.

Indeed we have debated multiple topics, my comment however was specifically about Elliot simply just being the best pick in the draft because he was simply taken too early. Now your argument is that who should Dallas have taken instead if they didn't feel Ramsey was a fit. To that point I can agree that you take Elliot in that case, that still doesn't mean that he is the best pick, just the best pick for Dallas.

I also 100% agree with you that he is the best fit for his team taken and he has the best chance of being offensive rookie of the year. However if we remove The Cowboy's oline from the equatiok that conversation becomes a little more controversial. By that stance Dak Prescott also has the chance to be the most successful QB out of this draft. With an oline that can give you days to make reads, one of the top WR's in the league, one of the top TE's in the league, a solid running back option as long as he is decent he should be able to be successful. That doesn't mean he will be the best QB from this draft. So that said I think you are right on Elliot possibly taking Rookie of the Year (although I think Treadwell is a top contender as well). You also might be right about Todd Gurley but it is also too soon to see if he will have a successful career (though he is off to a hell of a start).

I respect your opinion as well as far as thinking he is the best pick, just hope you can also realize that it might be a bit biased when the other factors come into play show it might have some questionable points (case in point that I never called him a bad pick, just an early one and you seemed to get defensive that I said they had 2 potential starters already before they drafted him). I like Elliot and I want him to succeed, I think Dallas is the best place that gives him the most chance for him to succeed. I do however know that if he is solid but not top tier that he will be looked at as a bust for being taken so high (case in point Mcfadden who I very much like, who would have likely been considered a better player if taken later or even in the second or third).

One thing is for sure though, we are simply speculating and until September comes we don't have much of an actual basis for said speculation. I again will be the first to admit I could be wrong (I was when I thought Colt Mccoy would be the best QB in his draft and I thought the Falcons made a huge mistake not trading up to get Tyler Eiffert and instead drafting Desmond Trufant and we see how that turned out, I have also had many predictions be true though, so it really just depends). Either way I would like to hope you are right cause I would really like to see Elliot succeed it just makes me weary with the past history of backs taken so early (kind of like the madden curse lol)

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Indeed we have debated multiple topics, my comment however was specifically about Elliot simply just being the best pick in the draft because he was simply taken too early. Now your argument is that who should Dallas have taken instead if they didn't feel Ramsey was a fit. To that point I can agree that you take Elliot in that case, that still doesn't mean that he is the best pick, just the best pick for Dallas.

I also 100% agree with you that he is the best fit for his team taken and he has the best chance of being offensive rookie of the year. However if we remove The Cowboy's oline from the equatiok that conversation becomes a little more controversial. By that stance Dak Prescott also has the chance to be the most successful QB out of this draft. With an oline that can give you days to make reads, one of the top WR's in the league, one of the top TE's in the league, a solid running back option as long as he is decent he should be able to be successful. That doesn't mean he will be the best QB from this draft. So that said I think you are right on Elliot possibly taking Rookie of the Year (although I think Treadwell is a top contender as well). You also might be right about Todd Gurley but it is also too soon to see if he will have a successful career (though he is off to a hell of a start).

I respect your opinion as well as far as thinking he is the best pick, as long as you also realize that it might be a bit biased when the other factors come into play show it might have some questionable points (case in point that I never called him a bad pick, just an early one and you seemed to get defensive that I said they had 2 potential starters already before they drafted him). I like Elliot and I want him to succeed, I think Dallas is the best place that gives him the most chance for him to succeed. I do however know that if he is solid but not top tier that he will be looked at as a bust for being taken so high (case in point Mcfadden who I very much like, who would have likely been considered a better player if taken later or even in the second or third).

One thing is for sure though, we are simply speculating and until September comes we don't have much of an actual basis for said speculation. I again will be the first to admit I could be wrong (I was when I thought Colt Mccoy would be the best QB in his draft and I thought the Falcons made a huge mistake not trading up to get Tyler Eiffert and instead drafting Desmond Trufant and we see how that turned out, I have also had many predictions be true though, so it really just depends). Either way I would like to hope you are right cause I would really like to see Elliot succeed it just makes me weary with the past history of backs taken so early (kind of like the madden curse lol)

Great all around points but I will make this last one. Running backs aren't usually considered that high because of what the league has turned into. A pass happy league. You can find running backs later in the draft because teams have devalued the position. A lot of teams also want to rotate backs which also resulted into devaluing them. However, if more teams were built like Dallas and had a run first smash mouth philosophy. You would see running backs taken higher again and receivers taken later. A lot of these receivers taken in my opinion are not worth first round picks. It's just where the league is headed. So Dallas has not devalued the running back position and had a player sitting there who Stephen Jones said was the highest rated player to come out at his position in many many years and also the highest rated overall player on their board. Could we have gotten one later still? Yes but the drop off was great (other than possibly Henry which opinions vary) and at that point what's the point with McFadden and Morris there who would likely be just as capable. With that all being said. Regardless of the devaluing of running backs we are seeing some elite talent come out (Gurley, Elliot, Fornuete) who are still being taken very high. With that being said. I would respectfully disagree that the reason he might not be the pick of the draft is the devaluing of the running back. Dallas is a different animal than most. Tennessee is actually building their team in a very similar way. We just might see a resurgence here in the coming years.

Edit: by everything I have seen and read. You are in the minority by thinking Elliot is just a solid running back and not a top tier talent. That's okay, you are entitled to your own opinion. But I wouldn't use that opinion to try and devalue someone elses pick of being the pick of the draft.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Of course my opinions are biased lol. And me saying GM of the year is Jerry Jones after the draft was a joke. However, I still think my picks were fair picks.

[Ampking101]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Edit: by everything I have seen and read. You are in the minority by thinking Elliot is just a solid running back and not a top tier talent. That's okay, you are entitled to your own opinion. But I wouldn't use that opinion to try and devalue someone elses pick of being the pick of the draft.

I didn't use that opinion to devalue your pick. You originally replied to my post that was replying about the article, the part about Elliot was specifically geared toward this....

"Kevin Groves: I'd say it's a toss-up right now between the Cowboys and the Jets. I think Ezekiel Elliot is going to be a good running back, but if you look at McFadden's production from last year and prorate it for actual snaps, you'll see he quietly had a solid season despite terrible QB play and a lack of big-play ability at the WR spot due to Dez Bryant's absence. With the #4 pick, I expected them to fill some holes on a defense that forced the lowest number of turnovers in NFL history."

When they were speaking about who had the worst draft. I was simply stating that I didn't think they made a bad pick but that it certainly wasn't the best at that point in time. You however I guess took that to me replying directly to you and "devaluing your pick". You have also used your opinion to "devalue" my view on Running backs taken in the first and the ability to get solid running backs in later rounds, so I don't get what your point is. When you start a debate, expect to have differing ideals brought up and have opinions refute on why the differing view is wrong.

Also if you'll look I edited the part about being biased because the way I originally wrote it made it seem as if I could only respect your opinion IF you could admit you were biased and that wasn't what I was getting at, they were two separate points. I also would like to point out I didn't devalue your opinion as I often agreed with you and simply gave my opinion on the arguments on said point. I never outright just said "you're wrong" as I don't know and therefore it would be counterintuitive.

Also I never said I thought Elliot would be "just solid". I made statements regarding if he was just solid but never did I state that is only what he would be. I again think he was a top 10 pick. Also speaking of run first teams (Dallas is far from that but I'll go with it), I miss those types. My favorite years of the Falcons were when we had an elite line and used Turner all day. I miss smash mouth football, but those days have long passed and it will take some serious lengths for it to make a resurgence in the league. That said we've both argued our points and gotten no where so I will take my leave. That said I do apologize you felt as if I "devalued your opinion" on your pick because I never attacked you or stated you were wrong, you replied to my post and I simply engaged in a conversation about it.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

I didn't use that opinion to devalue your pick. You originally replied to my post that was replying about the article, the part about Elliot was specifically geared toward this....

"Kevin Groves: I'd say it's a toss-up right now between the Cowboys and the Jets. I think Ezekiel Elliot is going to be a good running back, but if you look at McFadden's production from last year and prorate it for actual snaps, you'll see he quietly had a solid season despite terrible QB play and a lack of big-play ability at the WR spot due to Dez Bryant's absence. With the #4 pick, I expected them to fill some holes on a defense that forced the lowest number of turnovers in NFL history."

When they were speaking about who had the worst draft. I was simply stating that I didn't think they made a bad pick but that it certainly wasn't the best at that point in time. You however I guess took that to me replying directly to you and "devaluing your pick". You have also used your opinion to "devalue" my view on Running backs taken in the first and the ability to get solid running backs in later rounds, so I don't get what your point is. When you start a debate, expect to have differing ideals brought up and have opinions refute on why the differing view is wrong.

Also if you'll look I edited the part about being biased because the way I originally wrote it made it seem as if I could only respect your opinion IF you could admit you were biased and that wasn't what I was getting at, they were two separate points. I also would like to point out I didn't devalue your opinion as I often agreed with you and simply gave my opinion on the arguments on said point. I never outright just said "you're wrong" as I don't know and therefore it would be counterintuitive.

Also I never said I thought Elliot would be "just solid". I made statements regarding if he was just solid but never did I state that is only what he would be. I again think he was a top 10 pick. Also speaking of run first teams (Dallas is far from that but I'll go with it), I miss those types. My favorite years of the Falcons were when we had an elite line and used Turner all day. I miss smash mouth football, but those days have long passed and it will take some serious lengths for it to make a resurgence in the league. That said we've both argued our points and gotten no where so I will take my leave. That said I do apologize you felt as if I "devalued your opinion" on your pick because I never attacked you or stated you were wrong, you replied to my post and I simply engaged in a conversation about it.

Okay I took what you were saying the wrong way in reference to you believing him to be solid or not. But you can say that about any picks in the top ten so it's pointless to even discuss that. If Jalen Ramsey only turned out to be solid he would be considered a bust. Same with the rest of the picks in top 5 and especially those qbs of which the teams who picked them gave up a ransom. They need to be great and not just solid.

When you talked about Dak Prescott falling into the perfect situation and comparing that to Elliot i just not a good comparison. Dak could've been had in the 4th and was. Elliot couldn't have been. Dallas's oline and offensive mentality should do nothing to devalue Ezekiel Elliot as a player or as a pick. It should only help make the pick better by being a perfect fit.

When you said your point is Elliot was taken too early and that's why you don't think he could be the pick of the draft. I gave you the one and true reason why he might indeed have been looked at an early pick. Because of the devaluation of running backs. He was a top 5 player according to every scout I read. So I think my argument was well made.

Also, Kevin Groves points are horrible. If you look at McFadden body of work including the likelyhood of injury along with his age it should be no secret dallas wants an upgrade. I already talked about that point earlier and why I thought it wasn't a good one. He also talks about our defense needing to force turnovers. While yes that may be true. Jalen Ramsey only had 3 picks in his whole career and is a red flag. Usually Corner backs who get picked that high and find success in this league are guys who had a ton of picks in college. Dallas's defense was ranked 5th against the pass and middle of the pack overall with no help from our offense who constantly gave them 3 and outs. I see what he is getting at but in no way do I agree with him.

It's also VERY possible and likely that Dallas had trouble creating turnovers because of our lack of offense and lack of points. We never really forced the opposing to to fight from behind or even feel like they had to take risk. It was simple, they play safe football by protecting the ball, not risking turnovers and eventually they would just outscore us. We were that bad. Something to think about for sure

Edit: Dallas was second in turnovers in 2014 when we had a dominant running back and offensive team. The players on defense didn't really change in 2015 as side from Orlando scandic being hurt. We actually added a 1st round pick in Byron Jones since then and he had a solid rookie year for us. SO, I have no idea what Kevin is talking about but he clearly needs to do more research. Ezekiel Elliot can help our defense just like Murray did.

[GoJags904]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

I think my Jags had the best draft, madden or not. Madden ratings only though, I think its the Jags and the Cowboys. With Romo being an above average QB and them having a superstar WR, Elliot was a great "Madden" pickup.

This Cowboys fan in the thread is using his bias to formulate his argument for Elliot. A team that has needs on D, and I mean pressing needs, doesnt go RB at 4. If you value a starting RB at 4 with a QB that may not last more than 2 or 3 years, hopefully more, that's one strike. THEN you have a Defense that has holes on the DL and needs depth at LB, CB, and not really S but you could've had a one in a lifetime player on D to help compliment your superstar on O in Ramsey. Jaylon was going to be taken by the Patriots so i'll give that a pass assuming you guys dont need a MLB or an OLB immediately and have starters you believe in that can take you to a SB if Elliot works out. Lastly you then took Dak because Jerry overdrafted Jaylon instead of trading something to get Connor Cook after missing Paxton. So if Romo is hurt again then you will have the same problems as last year.

Just FYI, the Jags needed a RB more than you guys did and passed on Gurley instead of trading back to get him and picking up more picks, we instead got Fowler to fill ONE hole on the DL. That's also why we went Defense heavy this year as well because we still needed more than one Defensive player to fix the D. We got Yeldon in the second and are plenty happy because we had NOTHING at RB. You seem just as, if not more excited than we were last year for Elliot and you already had decent quality at the position and passed on the best healthy Defenders in the draft .

If the fans support this madness from Jerry, then I guess I understand why he thinks its acceptable to stay in charge of everything and hold the organization back.

[BB_Dynasty]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

For Madden? No question the Cowboys had the best draft. Elliot is going to be a Madden beast and Jaylon Smith won't be hurt in the video game and will also be a insane player to use in the game.

Both in reality and in Madden I think the Bills had a fantastic draft. For Madden I think Shaq Lawson will be an absolute monster at LOLB/LE. Reggie Ragland will be frustrating with his lack of speed, but will make up for it with insane hit power I imagine.Cardale Jones is everything you want in a Madden QB, huge arm and decent mobility (I can still get down with EJ Manuel for these reasons, despite his awful accuracy ratings). One of their last picks will be unstoppable with his speed, Kolby Listenbee.

I'm stoked to use them in CFM as well.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

For Madden? No question the Cowboys had the best draft. Elliot is going to be a Madden beast and Jaylon Smith won't be hurt in the video game and will also be a insane player to use in the game.

Both in reality and in Madden I think the Bills had a fantastic draft. For Madden I think Shaq Lawson will be an absolute monster at LOLB/LE. Reggie Ragland will be frustrating with his lack of speed, but will make up for it with insane hit power I imagine.Cardale Jones is everything you want in a Madden QB, huge arm and decent mobility (I can still get down with EJ Manuel for these reasons, despite his awful accuracy ratings). One of their last picks will be unstoppable with his speed, Kolby Listenbee.

I'm stoked to use them in CFM as well.

I like what the Bills did as well. I was high on both Cardale Jones and Dak Prescott in the 4th round. But PLEASE Madden. Drop the xp system for the love of god. I would love to develop Dak behind Romo but as it stands now with the xp system. That would be impossible for me to do unless Romo retired. That's not how the NFL works. Dak should develop somewhat while sitting a few years behind Romo. Please oh please fix this issue in Madden 17. It was the first thing I thought about when Dallas drafted Dak and I thought about using him in Madden. My smile turned into a frown quickly.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

I think my Jags had the best draft, madden or not. Madden ratings only though, I think its the Jags and the Cowboys. With Romo being an above average QB and them having a superstar WR, Elliot was a great "Madden" pickup.

This Cowboys fan in the thread is using his bias to formulate his argument for Elliot. A team that has needs on D, and I mean pressing needs, doesnt go RB at 4. If you value a starting RB at 4 with a QB that may not last more than 2 or 3 years, hopefully more, that's one strike. THEN you have a Defense that has holes on the DL and needs depth at LB, CB, and not really S but you could've had a one in a lifetime player on D to help compliment your superstar on O in Ramsey. Jaylon was going to be taken by the Patriots so i'll give that a pass assuming you guys dont need a MLB or an OLB immediately and have starters you believe in that can take you to a SB if Elliot works out. Lastly you then took Dak because Jerry overdrafted Jaylon instead of trading something to get Connor Cook after missing Paxton. So if Romo is hurt again then you will have the same problems as last year.

Just FYI, the Jags needed a RB more than you guys did and passed on Gurley instead of trading back to get him and picking up more picks, we instead got Fowler to fill ONE hole on the DL. That's also why we went Defense heavy this year as well because we still needed more than one Defensive player to fix the D. We got Yeldon in the second and are plenty happy because we had NOTHING at RB. You seem just as, if not more excited than we were last year for Elliot and you already had decent quality at the position and passed on the best healthy Defenders in the draft .

If the fans support this madness from Jerry, then I guess I understand why he thinks its acceptable to stay in charge of everything and hold the organization back.

After the first 4 games of the season dallas has Gregory Thornton, Crawford and Lawrence on the line. That's pretty good. Gregory still has to prove it but he has the potential. The problem with thinking that Dallas took a RB to early is thinking Dallas values the running back the same as other teams. That's not the case. Who cares how other teams and people value the RB. We are not built like them and we do not play like them. It's like saying why did a 3-4 defense draft that big defensive end who is to slow to take the edge. My team runs a 4-3 and we don't value that player so neither should they. See what I mean. As far as how bad our defense is believed to be as a whole. It's wrong to gauge their talent based off of last season. We were decimated on offense and continued to give them 3 and outs. Also Scandic was hurt all year. Instead people should gauge how talented they are based off of what Dallas can do on offense when healthy. Because we were pretty good and SECOND in turnovers. We also had a dominant running back then in 2014. Well guess what. We drafted one who could be potentially better. So please do not gauge our D based off of last year. That is not doing us justice at all and is completely unfair. A better barometer would be the team we fielded in 2014. The players haven't changed since. We actually have drafted and signed help since then. So if anything we might be better than that 2014 defense. That's all man. I just ask for fairness and the ability to keep an open mind.

Did I mention Dallas was 12-4 in 2014? And we only added players that can help on D since then... and we possibly upgraded our running back in Elliot from Murray... So stop looking at Dallas like omg they don't know what they are doing and Jerry is sooo stupid why would you defend his crap based off a season where we lost Murray in FA lost our Franchise qb and lost Dez for a chunk of the year and was never fully healthy. Oh and we lost our best corner for the season before it even started. Look the Jags did good this year it looks like. But Dallas has been building a pretty good team lately as well. The Jerry Hate is Real

What position on a team (other than possibly QB) who likes to play smash mouth football pounding the rock up and down the field, controlling the clock and already has a great oline to get the push up front to help open holes, do you think they value the most? If you said Running back you would be correct. So if that team has only a 29 year old injury prone running back who after like 8 seasons had one good year behind your oline, do you believe they should look to upgrade immediately? Guess what, we had the number four pick and a top 5 overall prospect of the draft who many consider to be the best to come out since AP sitting there. We took him. Jerry is so dumb though and fans need to wake up, I know.

You saying Romo is only above average though shows your lack of respect for what he has done and the records he has set in not only the Cowboys organization but also in the NFL. it was never more evident than last year that Romo has worked with less his whole career. We won 1 game without him... 1. Guess what we were on pace for with Romo in the lineup.. 12-4. Yeah I know what you're thinking. That's what an above average QB can do for that team right lol. This is a team sport so quite honestly you loss all credibility. You couldn't have been talking about Romo in Madden either because he is always around 90 overall and have seen him reach 94 or 95 in the past.

Tony Romo set two all time NFL records. Surpassing the likes of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner etc. Tony Romo now holds the records for most completions in 100 starts (2,276) and yards, (27,747).

Yup looks above average to me..

[Dr Death]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Tony Romo set two all time NFL records. Surpassing the likes of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner etc. Tony Romo now holds the records for most completions in 100 starts (2,276) and yards, (27,747).

Yup looks above average to me..

Not trying to get in the argument you are having with whoever, but I've got some sad news for you... regular season stats are only one part of the equation. And in today's NFL, where you can't touch the receivers or the QB, and where passing dominates, just you watch, sometime in the next five years someone will break Romo's records.

You want to talk about what determines a great QB vs an "above average" one... delivering in the clutch. And Romo has N-E-V-E-R been confused as a clutch guy. Case in point...

Career play-off record: 2-4 {And one of those wins is highly controversial}

Taken from Wikipedia:

On the Lions' ensuing possession, the most controversial play of the game occurred. Stafford threw a pass intended for tight end Brandon Pettigrew who was being covered by Cowboys rookie linebacker Anthony Hitchens. Hitchens held Pettigrew's jersey before knocking him down as the pass fell incomplete.<sup id="cite_ref-Twentyman_7-0" class="reference">[7]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[8]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[9]</sup> Back judge Lee Dyer threw a flag for defensive pass interference. After referee Pete Morelli announced the penalty, head linesman Jerry Bergman determined that Hitchens' actions did not warrant a penalty.<sup id="cite_ref-usatodaybell_10-0" class="reference">[10]</sup> Morelli then announced there was no foul on the play and the flag was picked up.<sup id="cite_ref-defeated_11-0" class="reference">[11]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-Yahoo_Officials_Change_Mind_12-0" class="reference">[12]</sup> The decision to change the initial call received significant media attention after the game and was widely decried as incorrect.<sup id="cite_ref-Twentyman_7-1" class="reference">[7]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-usatodaybell_10-1" class="reference">[10]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[13]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference">[14]</sup> NFL Vice President of Officiating, Dean Blandino stated that the non-call on pass interference was debatable, but holding definitely should have been called on the play.

Now when the VP of Officiating comes out and says a call was missed, that's bad. But back to Romo and I'm going to compare him to three guys from the past, not the present, because the rules today make it too easy.

The three guys from the past are:

Roger Staubach

Kenny Stabler

Joe Montana

Career post-season records:

Staubach: 11-6 {2 Super Bowl wins}

Stabler: 7-5 {1 Super Bowl win}

Montana: 16-7 {4 Super Bowl wins}

The other thing about these three guys is all of them played in some of the most memorable and greatest games in NFL history. Staubach had the 1972 play-off game at San Francisco, where the Cowboys trailed 13-28 in the 4th quarter, but he led them to 17 points, throwing 2 TD passes, and won the game 30-28.

Or the Hail Mary game. Being a Cowboy fan, I'm sure you know this one. The funny thing about that game is the most memorable play came BEFORE the Hail Mary. Facing 4th and 16, Staubach hit Pearson on the sideline for a first down... this is the play that set up the Hail Mary.

Snake Stabler played in the most games with names... The Immaculate Reception {his 30 yard TD run set up the Steeler TD}, The Sea Of Hands, The Ghost To The Post and The Holy Roller. All but The Holy Roller happened in the play-offs.

In 1979, when the Raiders played at the Saints on Monday Night Football, the Saints led 35-14 with less than a quarter and a half to play. What did Stabler do? Drove the Raiders to a TD to make it 21-35, then in the 4th quarter he threw 3 TD passes, bringing the Raiders back to win 42-35.

In 1980, as a member of the Houston Oilers, playing at the NY Jets, the Oilers lost both Earl Campbell and Dave Casper and trailed 0-21 entering the 4th period. Snake threw FOUR 4th quarter TD passes, becoming the first player ever to throw 4 TD passes in the 4th quarter. That record has never been broken... only tied. By Joe Montana in 1989 and Vinny Testaverde in 2000.

And, being a Cowboy fan, I'm sure you know about Joe Montana. The 1981 NFC Championship, now known as The Catch. And in Super Bowl XXIII, driving the 49ers 92 yards in the final 3:10, throwing the game winning, Super Bowl winning pass with just :34 left.

Montana continued his magic in Kansas City, bringing the Chiefs back from certain defeat in back to back weeks in the play-offs... to beat the Steelers 27-24 in OT and the next week leading them to 21 4th quarter points in a 28-20 win over the Oilers, who entered the game with an 11 game winning streak.

These are the kinda things that make a QB great. Can they do it in the clutch when all the money is on the line? With a 2-4 career play-off record and one of those wins so controversial that it begs the question... just what was the NFL thinking in that game? Without a lot of help from the refs, Romo could be - and should be - 1-5 in play-off games.

In the pass happy league we have now and the rules we have now, don't start bragging about a guy's numbers until he's done something worth mentioning... like winning a Super Bowl without getting help from the refs!

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Not trying to get in the argument you are having with whoever, but I've got some sad news for you... regular season stats are only one part of the equation. And in today's NFL, where you can't touch the receivers or the QB, and where passing dominates, just you watch, sometime in the next five years someone will break Romo's records.

You want to talk about what determines a great QB vs an "above average" one... delivering in the clutch. And Romo has N-E-V-E-R been confused as a clutch guy. Case in point...

Career play-off record: 2-4 {And one of those wins is highly controversial}

Taken from Wikipedia:

On the Lions' ensuing possession, the most controversial play of the game occurred. Stafford threw a pass intended for tight end Brandon Pettigrew who was being covered by Cowboys rookie linebacker Anthony Hitchens. Hitchens held Pettigrew's jersey before knocking him down as the pass fell incomplete.<sup id="cite_ref-Twentyman_7-0" class="reference">[7]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[8]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[9]</sup> Back judge Lee Dyer threw a flag for defensive pass interference. After referee Pete Morelli announced the penalty, head linesman Jerry Bergman determined that Hitchens' actions did not warrant a penalty.<sup id="cite_ref-usatodaybell_10-0" class="reference">[10]</sup> Morelli then announced there was no foul on the play and the flag was picked up.<sup id="cite_ref-defeated_11-0" class="reference">[11]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-Yahoo_Officials_Change_Mind_12-0" class="reference">[12]</sup> The decision to change the initial call received significant media attention after the game and was widely decried as incorrect.<sup id="cite_ref-Twentyman_7-1" class="reference">[7]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-usatodaybell_10-1" class="reference">[10]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[13]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference">[14]</sup> NFL Vice President of Officiating, Dean Blandino stated that the non-call on pass interference was debatable, but holding definitely should have been called on the play.

Now when the VP of Officiating comes out and says a call was missed, that's bad. But back to Romo and I'm going to compare him to three guys from the past, not the present, because the rules today make it too easy.

The three guys from the past are:

Roger Staubach

Kenny Stabler

Joe Montana

Career post-season records:

Staubach: 11-6 {2 Super Bowl wins}

Stabler: 7-5 {1 Super Bowl win}

Montana: 16-7 {4 Super Bowl wins}

The other thing about these three guys is all of them played in some of the most memorable and greatest games in NFL history. Staubach had the 1972 play-off game at San Francisco, where the Cowboys trailed 13-28 in the 4th quarter, but he led them to 17 points, throwing 2 TD passes, and won the game 30-28.

Or the Hail Mary game. Being a Cowboy fan, I'm sure you know this one. The funny thing about that game is the most memorable play came BEFORE the Hail Mary. Facing 4th and 16, Staubach hit Pearson on the sideline for a first down... this is the play that set up the Hail Mary.

Snake Stabler played in the most games with names... The Immaculate Reception {his 30 yard TD run set up the Steeler TD}, The Sea Of Hands, The Ghost To The Post and The Holy Roller. All but The Holy Roller happened in the play-offs.

In 1979, when the Raiders played at the Saints on Monday Night Football, the Saints led 35-14 with less than a quarter and a half to play. What did Stabler do? Drove the Raiders to a TD to make it 21-35, then in the 4th quarter he threw 3 TD passes, bringing the Raiders back to win 42-35.

In 1980, as a member of the Houston Oilers, playing at the NY Jets, the Oilers lost both Earl Campbell and Dave Casper and trailed 0-21 entering the 4th period. Snake threw FOUR 4th quarter TD passes, becoming the first player ever to throw 4 TD passes in the 4th quarter. That record has never been broken... only tied. By Joe Montana in 1989 and Vinny Testaverde in 2000.

And, being a Cowboy fan, I'm sure you know about Joe Montana. The 1981 NFC Championship, now known as The Catch. And in Super Bowl XXIII, driving the 49ers 92 yards in the final 3:10, throwing the game winning, Super Bowl winning pass with just :34 left.

Montana continued his magic in Kansas City, bringing the Chiefs back from certain defeat in back to back weeks in the play-offs... to beat the Steelers 27-24 in OT and the next week leading them to 21 4th quarter points in a 28-20 win over the Oilers, who entered the game with an 11 game winning streak.

These are the kinda things that make a QB great. Can they do it in the clutch when all the money is on the line? With a 2-4 career play-off record and one of those wins so controversial that it begs the question... just what was the NFL thinking in that game? Without a lot of help from the refs, Romo could be - and should be - 1-5 in play-off games.

In the pass happy league we have now and the rules we have now, don't start bragging about a guy's numbers until he's done something worth mentioning... like winning a Super Bowl without getting help from the refs!

Very fair points and it's clear you are not just spewing hate.

Tony Romo not being clutch is very debatable. Even Madden was forced to give Romo the clutch trait after the week one game last year against the Giants. I'll leave this here and after you read it I would love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/tony-romo-fourth-quarter-comeback-clutch-cowboys-lions-nfl-playoffs-nfc-wild-card-jerry-jones-stats-numbers/1k1qz5rz9c6rn176j4hxtk79m8

In that Lions game the TE actually pulled on Anthony Hitchens face mask to try and get him out of the way or force contact as well. I'm sure if you just do a quick search of that you will see. Also. The Lions had chances to win that game after that penalty you did not like. It did not decide their game it was not even close to their last play. The Lions were still winning 20-17. Guess who came through clutch to put Dallas up in the 4th quarter? Tony Romo! Stafford ended up fumbling twice after that also. The Lions just couldn't get it done. There are bad calls (if we are calling it that) in every game so don't let sour Lion fans who cry like it cost them the game affect you. The fact that you would take 1 bad call (in a game that is played where calls get missed and called incorrect every game) that didn't even decide the outcome of the game affect you to the point where you say the Cowboys had no business winning it and it should be spunged from Romo's career playoff record. Really makes me second guess my originally assessment of you being fair with your points. Because that Is the furthest thing from fairness I have ever heard on OS.


If you look at those championship teams you mentioned with those QB's, you will see dominate defenses as well. Very rarely do you see a team that is so good offensively that they win despite their poor defense. Saints did it and so did the Colts. I don't remember many more. Dallas has never given Romo anything close to a dominate D. In fact, one year we had the 3rd worst defense of all time and we still were one game away from making the playoffs.

Regardless of all of this debate. I never claimed Romo was anything other than a MORE than an above average QB. It doesn't matter what I believe he is. But I will defend him from low blows like that.

[GoJags904]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Very fair points and it's clear you are not just spewing hate.

Tony Romo not being clutch is very debatable. Even Madden was forced to give Romo the clutch trait after the week one game last year against the Giants. I'll leave this here and after you read it I would love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/tony-romo-fourth-quarter-comeback-clutch-cowboys-lions-nfl-playoffs-nfc-wild-card-jerry-jones-stats-numbers/1k1qz5rz9c6rn176j4hxtk79m8

In that Lions game the TE actually pulled on Anthony Hitchens face mask to try and get him out of the way or force contact as well. I'm sure if you just do a quick search of that you will see. Also. The Lions had chances to win that game after that penalty you did not like. It did not decide their game it was not even close to their last play. Stafford ended up fumbling twice after that. The Lions just couldn't get it done. There are bad callas (if we are calling it that) in every game so don't let sour Lion fans who cry like it cost them the game affect you.


If you look at those championship teams you mentioned with those QB's, you will see dominate defenses as well. Very rarely do you see a team that is so good offensively that they win despite their poor defense. Saints did it and so did the Colts. I don't remember many more. Dallas has never given Romo anything close to a dominate D. In fact, one year we had the 3rd worst defense of all time and we still were one game away from making the playoffs.

Regardless of all of this debate. I never claimed Romo was anything other than a MORE than an above average QB. It doesn't matter what I believe he is. But I will defend him from low blows like that.

Not piggybacking on what the other poster said but what every NFL fan wants in their Franchise QB is playoff births and wins once you receive them. Romo, well the entire Cowboys team, is hyped up every year to be one of the best teams in the NFC before the season even starts and then, more often than not, they underperform. It's the media you should be upset with because fans of other teams just wait for the crash and burn every year to prove that the media has no clue what they're talking about and it paints Dallas as just a popular team getting bias love.

I think that trying to relive the past is the ONLY reason the Cowboys took Elliot and trying to compare ROMO to Aikman is insane, based off Playoff records and rings alone. I do apologize though if I came off as harsh because it's not your fault for what other fans have to put up with. Your Defense is slightly upgraded based on player potential alone but a record 2 years ago with almost the same roster is not anything to brag about. You also have to remember the problems all of those teams you faced had, as well as the holes they have also filled with upgrades. I hope your right though, coming from one NFL teams' fan to another.

[Dr Death]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

Very fair points and it's clear you are not just spewing hate.

I'll leave this here and after you read it I would love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/tony-romo-fourth-quarter-comeback-clutch-cowboys-lions-nfl-playoffs-nfc-wild-card-jerry-jones-stats-numbers/1k1qz5rz9c6rn176j4hxtk79m8

In that Lions game the TE actually pulled on Anthony Hitchens face mask to try and get him out of the way or force contact as well. I'm sure if you just do a quick search of that you will see. Also. The Lions had chances to win that game after that penalty you did not like. It did not decide their game it was not even close to their last play. Stafford ended up fumbling twice after that. The Lions just couldn't get it done.

No, I don't spew hate, I try to speak - or write - openly and honestly. I read the article you linked and my question is this... how is this NOT pass interference???



As far as that article and the guy going on about how clutch Romo was/is... one game doesn't equate to being clutch. Especially when that game was so controversial. But guys like Staubach, Stabler, Montana, Marino, and Elway did it over and over. They proved they were clutch because of dramatic 4th quarter comebacks in the play-offs, as well as the regular season. And Montana did it on the biggest stage in the world - the Super Bowl. 92 yards. 8 of 9 passing on that drive. Facing a 2nd and 20 after a penalty, he hit Rice for 27 yards. That... is clutch. A couple plays later he threw the game winner to Taylor.

Maybe it's unfair to Romo, but you have to admit, he brought it all on himself with mishaps in the play-offs and a 2-4 record isn't likely to change anyone's mind anytime soon.

It's a cold, cruel business, and until he leads the Cowboys to a Super Bowl and then brings them from behind to win in that Super Bowl, he will never be considered clutch by the majority of people. You can disagree, but that's just how life is in this social media age that we live in.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

No, I don't spew hate, I try to speak - or write - openly and honestly. I read the article you linked and my question is this... how is this NOT pass interference???



As far as that article and the guy going on about how clutch Romo was/is... one game doesn't equate to being clutch. Especially when that game was so controversial. But guys like Staubach, Stabler, Montana, Marino, and Elway did it over and over. They proved they were clutch because of dramatic 4th quarter comebacks in the play-offs, as well as the regular season. And Montana did it on the biggest stage in the world - the Super Bowl. 92 yards. 8 of 9 passing on that drive. Facing a 2nd and 20 after a penalty, he hit Rice for 27 yards. That... is clutch. A couple plays later he threw the game winner to Taylor.

Maybe it's unfair to Romo, but you have to admit, he brought it all on himself with mishaps in the play-offs and a 2-4 record isn't likely to change anyone's mind anytime soon.

It's a cold, cruel business, and until he leads the Cowboys to a Super Bowl and then brings them from behind to win in that Super Bowl, he will never be considered clutch by the majority of people. You can disagree, but that's just how life is in this social media age that we live in.

After watching the video you can see pettigrew pulling the face mask bringing Hitchens in so close that contact is going to be made no matter what hitches did. http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...play/21295621/

And it's not just one game that made some people think Romo is clutch.

He didn't just lead Dallas to a 4-0 final month that ensured it would go into the playoffs as a third-seeded NFC East champion. He did it in style as the NFC offensive player of the month, posting the best passer rating ever (133.7) for a quarterback who averaged at least 25 attempts over four games in December.

Here is a link that talks about how clutch Romo is in the 4th quarter http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2...ning_camp.html

Stats don't lie and I am trying to possibly explain to you that it is defense that wins championships and Romo doesn't get the help those qbs you mentioned had. Even Rodgers when he won had a top ranked defense. Just saying it is something to think about. Also...

Tony Romo is top ten all time in playoff QB rating. It's not that he isn't clutch. It's that his teams in no way shape or form were as good as some of the teams you will find in the playoffs.

Edit: before this goes on any further. I provided everything I wanted to provide including links. Whether someone takes the time to read them or not I don't care. I only wanted to point out that Romo as all the evidence in the world of being a more than above average QB. If the guy ends up with a ring it'll be hard to keep him out of the hall of fame with his amazing numbers and career performances when the games were on the line. Because yes Romo is the highest rate QB of all time in the 4th. At least he was a couple years ago. If you guys have anything else you would like to add thats whatever I can't stop you. But I have to stop. It has nothing to do with the topic and it was not my intentions when I added it in when talking about the draft. Thank you two though it was fun