I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

[manliest_Man]

Not only is it as hard to block it as the broken rubber guard transition, it also finishes the fight instantly with both fighters having 100% stamina.

Specifically reffering to Demian Maia and Jackare Suza, finishing GSP and Rockhold with eas on the first min of the fight with em.

The gates appear too fast, despite both having 100% stamina and the submission spammer having spamemd it for 3-4 times in a row.

I hope it gets a nerf in the next patch. Stamina plays no part in how easy it is to submit someone with it.

Second gate switches to an armbar and the fight is over with 3 gates.

[Dave_S]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

There is a few submissions like that.

[Shogun474]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

I have been subbed 4 times by the triangle today so i must agree. So quick to apply and has such a tiny denial window.

[Ksearyback]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

Not only is it as hard to block it as the broken rubber guard transition, it also finishes the fight instantly with both fighters having 100% stamina.

Specifically reffering to Demian Maia and Jackare Suza, finishing GSP and Rockhold with eas on the first min of the fight with em.

The gates appear too fast, despite both having 100% stamina and the submission spammer having spamemd it for 3-4 times in a row.

I hope it gets a nerf in the next patch. Stamina plays no part in how easy it is to submit someone with it.

Second gate switches to an armbar and the fight is over with 3 gates.

Just trying to be more realistic, I like the concern but disagree with the fix.

Honestly, stamina shouldn't really be all that directly linked to submission efficacy. Now on the flip side, I think submissions should be harder to initiate, and stamina SHOULD play a role in the initiation/denial battle.

I hope that makes sense. And just to make this more clear, if Maia or Jacare got anyone in a submission, it's getting finished even if it's in the beginning of a fight. However, in mma, it's not so easy to get it set up and locked in... And the delta in stamina between the two contestants should play a factor in the set up stage (just not the escape stage).

So maybe expand the denial window and place emphasis on how big the denial window is based on stamina. But I think once locked in, you should be toast against guys like that

[Boiler569]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

It SHOULD be a very dangerous place to be against ppl like Souza/Werdum/etc

Especially with 'guard specialist' perk etc

but I do agree that this sub (and even subs in general) could use a bit more nuance or be a bit more dynamic.

and also, that stamina should play a bigger role in subs and sub denials, as KSeary stated

As for RUBBER GUARD --- that thing is just broken man lol --- need to increase the denial window by at least 25% --- but ALSO make it a bit more difficult to ESCAPE once you're actually in it.

Right now, way too easy to apply rubber guard; but way too easy to escape it too

[Ksearyback]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

It SHOULD be a very dangerous place to be against ppl like Souza/Werdum/etc

Especially with 'guard specialist' perk etc

but I do agree that this sub (and even subs in general) could use a bit more nuance or be a bit more dynamic.

and also, that stamina should play a bigger role in subs and sub denials, as KSeary stated

As for RUBBER GUARD --- that thing is just broken man lol --- need to increase the denial window by at least 25% --- but ALSO make it a bit more difficult to ESCAPE once you're actually in it.

Right now, way too easy to apply rubber guard; but way too easy to escape it too

So much yes about this.

I really like the idea of talking to people who grapple (and I'm assuming they already do, but maybe some who also play a lot like me, Haz, Chia off the top of my head, though there are likely others out there lurking who are also higher belt jiu jitsu players).

My simple suggestion, aside from an overhaul, would be:
- Make it easier to deny submissions
- Rather than a submission block having three outcomes (block, reverse, successful attempt), I'd like to see a 4th outcome which is that you are blocked and lost position (different from a reversal where maybe your opponent regains a guard of some kind).
- The delta between the two fighters stamina should determine the adjusted window from whatever the baseline is (specific to the difficulty of the submission set up)
- Once you actually lock in a submission, stats and perks (and again, the delta in stats between two characters) will determine gate quickness

** Submissions are not easy to set up, but for the very high level guys, if you give them that opening you should be pretty much toast unless you do so thing miraculous. This example is akin to Jacare ALREADY having an arm triangle set up, or Maia ALREADY having the dig under your neck for a rear naked choke. So don't confuse this with saying they should easily get the submission position, I'm not. I would like to see this game make it harder to obtain submissions (and rubber guard to Boiler's point), but then make them more powerful once caught.**

[Morgan Monkman]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

So much yes about this.

I really like the idea of talking to people who grapple (and I'm assuming they already do, but maybe some who also play a lot like me, Haz, Chia off the top of my head, though there are likely others out there lurking who are also higher belt jiu jitsu players).

My simple suggestion, aside from an overhaul, would be:
- Make it easier to deny submissions
- Rather than a submission block having three outcomes (block, reverse, successful attempt), I'd like to see a 4th outcome which is that you are blocked and lost position (different from a reversal where maybe your opponent regains a guard of some kind).
- The delta between the two fighters stamina should determine the adjusted window from whatever the baseline is (specific to the difficulty of the submission set up)
- Once you actually lock in a submission, stats and perks (and again, the delta in stats between two characters) will determine gate quickness

** Submissions are not easy to set up, but for the very high level guys, if you give them that opening you should be pretty much toast unless you do so thing miraculous. This example is akin to Jacare ALREADY having an arm triangle set up, or Maia ALREADY having the dig under your neck for a rear naked choke. So don't confuse this with saying they should easily get the submission position, I'm not. I would like to see this game make it harder to obtain submissions (and rubber guard to Boiler's point), but then make them more powerful once caught.**

Baneil Daruish vs Michael Chiesa is a prime example, Baneil probably beats CHieasa 9 times out 10 in a Jits match but he got cocky in their mma fight and let chieasa get his back with a rear naked, even he couldnt escape that.

Or Cain Velasquez getting subbed by werdum.

you let these high level guys get your neck or limbs and most of the time its over.

[Bigg Cee]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

I LOVE THEM!!!

I have pulled off some crazy subs at late times with these different green gate setups. They don't need to be touched or nerfed at all, all you have to do is just hit then green hate before your oppenent does.

[Boiler569]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

I LOVE THEM!!!

I have pulled off some crazy subs at late times with these different green gate setups. They don't need to be touched or nerfed at all, all you have to do is just hit then green hate before your oppenent does.

Green Gate ALWAYS shows up in the same spot; at the same time; right?

Pretty sure

And if so...I think they should make it more random. To give each side a more 'even' chance. So instead of the green gate always showing up on the right side during the second gate...maybe sometimes it shows up on the left side; or perhaps during the third gate instead of second gate (if it makes sense for that particular BJJ position of course)/etc

I like the idea of green gate. But wish it was a bit more 'random' when and where it showed up during an attempt

[Dave_S]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

If subs are the same way in the next game I'd like to maybe see more variety in green submissions, as far as the ones that switch to the armbar. Sometimes when doing a triangle I actually want to choke opponent out (virtually), but it's hard to not flick to green gate and get armbar.

[TurkeyOfJive]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

Green Gate ALWAYS shows up in the same spot; at the same time; right?

Pretty sure

And if so...I think they should make it more random. To give each side a more 'even' chance. So instead of the green gate always showing up on the right side during the second gate...maybe sometimes it shows up on the left side; or perhaps during the third gate instead of second gate (if it makes sense for that particular BJJ position of course)/etc

I like the idea of green gate. But wish it was a bit more 'random' when and where it showed up during an attempt

I'm sure the green gates aren't always on the same direction?

In general I agree that subs are too easy to initiate but I've never liked this sub system really. I know you mentioned in another thread you didn't like the limb subs of EA MMA because they were "button mashing" but I really don't think they were; they took patience and "technique" - more so than this system anyway.

I don't think any game has done subs well - most people seem to like the UD series implementation but I really don't know why as they relied too much on stamina (I've never understood peoples obsession with stamina being the biggest factor in a sub), breaking your analog sticks and having a constant circle embedded in your palm.

I think EA MMA's sub system was the best so far but we all know that TBS is the way forward!

[cingular]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

If subs are the same way in the next game I'd like to maybe see more variety in green submissions, as far as the ones that switch to the armbar. Sometimes when doing a triangle I actually want to choke opponent out (virtually), but it's hard to not flick to green gate and get armbar.

This...the submissions are unrealistic when everyone goes to an armbar for the finish.
Aren't rear naked chokes the most common submission in real MMA? It is pointless to go for in this game when you can hit the 3 gate armbar instead of the 5 gate rnc when you have someones back.

[Haz____]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

This...the submissions are unrealistic when everyone goes to an armbar for the finish.
Aren't rear naked chokes the most common submission in real MMA? It is pointless to go for in this game when you can hit the 3 gate armbar instead of the 5 gate rnc when you have someones back.

Sort of a side note, but speaking of which, The animation for RNC from Back Sitting is incredibly goofy. Extremely unrealistic.

----

Also I feel like stamina needs to be extremely important in submissions. That's the only thing to prevent people from spamming submissions.

Stamina means almost nothing in EA UFC 2, and that's exactly why you can run into clowns who just throw sub after sub after sub, not setting anything up at all, just fishing for a cheap + easy win.

[Bigg Cee]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

Sort of a side note, but speaking of which, The animation for RNC from Back Sitting is incredibly goofy. Extremely unrealistic.

----

Also I feel like stamina needs to be extremely important in submissions. That's the only thing to prevent people from spamming submissions.

Stamina means almost nothing in EA UFC 2, and that's exactly why you can run into clowns who just throw sub after sub after sub, not setting anything up at all, just fishing for a cheap + easy win.

Yes I totally agree!

I don't get why they did not add a body lock to the back sitting postion when they were Mo Capping moves before UFC 2 even dropped. This should have been in UFC 2 since day 1.

This must get fixed for UFC 3 but I fear we might see some of the same recycled animations since it would be less money then mo capping a new move.

[Ksearyback]

Re: I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

Sort of a side note, but speaking of which, The animation for RNC from Back Sitting is incredibly goofy. Extremely unrealistic.

----

Also I feel like stamina needs to be extremely important in submissions. That's the only thing to prevent people from spamming submissions.

Stamina means almost nothing in EA UFC 2, and that's exactly why you can run into clowns who just throw sub after sub after sub, not setting anything up at all, just fishing for a cheap + easy win.

I agree, but I've posted how I think it should be fixed. I wonder if you'd agree.

Stamina should play a bigger role in the ability to initiate the submission (tired=wide denial window), so you need to learn patience in defense as you can then block submissions more easily, especially from a tired opponent. However, I don't mind stamina playing the same amount of role as it currently does to finish the submission.

For a realistic example think about Demian Maia in real life. He tires out in some fights when the opponent is tough, beats and grinds him and can capably avoid dangerous spots... But, that doesn't mean that if someone like Rory MacDonald actually got sloppy and ended up in a triangle, even a tired Maia is going to choke you out.

So that's my solution. The stamina delta in fighters, the stats and perks delta, play a part in how hard/easy it is to defend the submission attempts. Once in a submission, you are kind of screwed and should have the deck stacked against you as far as that mini game goes