PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

[BL8001]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

If you set marking and the cpu set marking correctly this defensive issue would be disguised more.

IRL Defenders do stay back. I see it all, the time, and they stay back with 3 at times even with only 1 striker threat.

Watching man city do it right now.

Now with an attacking rb or lb we should see rotation. If that player joins the attack, the remaining 3 should rotate to fill his empty slot.

Here is where marking correctly would make the difference. If the rb takes a slashing run forward and the possession is lost his immediate goal would be to locate his mark. Because knowing there are 3 back would mean his team was not in jeopardy if his mark was within marking distance.

Marking would also mean if you were marking the RM and he was down near his own penalty area then you can come down and join the attack while watching your mark.

[JimmyDeicide]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Its not how many guys are left on defense its their gap control that seems off too me they just retreat to the 18 yrd box pretty much.

[Matt10]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Matt is dead right , its hard coded into the players. Its either off or on doesn't seem to be any in between.
I never purchased 16 because of what i used to think was terrible defensive AI around the box where a defender would just ignore the threat and completely run away from you but you can see now it was probably just a change of possession and they where either hitting the defensive mindset or the attack mind set.
There needs to be an in between where they can recognize the immediate threat around them and react to that not where they should be positionaly..

If they can compress the field here the game would be epic.
Tell me this game right now isn't screaming for Fifa line settings.
I dont think changing player stats is going to fix it.

It will be interesting to see how the defense reacts if your tactic is gegen press.
What makes it more niggling right now is because when there is a break down in play and players are caught inbetween the AI is so good they see openings right away and will ping long ball over the top its really awesome to watch but we dont see it enough cos teams are always playing 3 sweepers if anyone remembers what they where Konami do.

Yeah, it's back to the same issues FIFA has, Compression and Decompression of the pitch. The issue here is that the width of the CB's proves that there is no true zonal marking - that should be a worry because with no zonal marking, means a man marking will be the focus, even on the attack. That is not how defending, or attacking, from defensive backs, works.

I do believe it's hard coded as I did try everything with PES 16, but they just don't budge. Even increasing the line height, lowering defensive prowess, increasing defensive prowess, adding on join in attack values, the works - they just don't budge away from the half, and they don't spread out far enough.

Giving up the defensive third the second there is a change in possession is the opposite of what a defensive line should do, especially against one attacker. This is why attackers in PES 17 demo will often find themselves able to turn and face goal with ease, and it can easily become an end to end match 70% of the time.

If you set marking and the cpu set marking correctly this defensive issue would be disguised more.

IRL Defenders do stay back. I see it all, the time, and they stay back with 3 at times even with only 1 striker threat.

Watching man city do it right now.

Now with an attacking rb or lb we should see rotation. If that player joins the attack, the remaining 3 should rotate to fill his empty slot.

Here is where marking correctly would make the difference. If the rb takes a slashing run forward and the possession is lost his immediate goal would be to locate his mark. Because knowing there are 3 back would mean his team was not in jeopardy if his mark was within marking distance.

Marking would also mean if you were marking the RM and he was down near his own penalty area then you can come down and join the attack while watching your mark.

Yes, they do stay back, pertaining to tactics. I do not want every team to have the same look, but they definitely should not be perfectly aligned across the pitch. This isn't red-rover, lol. In addition, the CDM placed directly in front of the CB's - and along their perfect line, is a failed grasp on the actual role of a DMF, it's like an inverted sweeper more than anything lol.

It's purely down to zonal vs man-marking again. Some of the old code from PES 14, that worked its way into PES 15 and continued on into PES 16.

Yet again, it's another one of those things that would not even hurt the game a lick. It would improve it beyond measures, and enhance it to levels of absolute joy considering the physics this game has.

[papinho81]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I rejoin your on the defense positioning issue Matt, it simply doesn't feels natural.

I have a short video showing a very bad example of defending behavior from the CPU on super star. Athletico had a corner kick and I am counter attacking. The two athletico CB behaved like complete nuts.

https://www.twitch.tv/papinho811/v/86208316

The quality of the video is quite poor I am sorry but good enough to show the bad defending behaviour.

I think the problem is exactly due to what your saying Matt, defense try to mark their man and doing so they follow Giroud until they reach the penalty area.

It seems to me that the compression decompression issue is less apparent on super star than on pro simply because the teams seems more compact through out the pitch.

Wired enough, I do find super star easier than pro. Its seems easier to keep possession but also to steel the from the cpu. It is likely a side effect of the compression of the pitch.

Excepts that defending positioning and sometimes the "advanced" though ball that do not feel completely manual but also sometime random in term of power I am really enjoying playing the demo.

It is too bad this game has no slider to help the CB meeting the ST and sorting the marking thing, but overall for me the good sides of this game largely overshadow the mentioned issues. It would be great if it could be fixed, but I feel like I could live with it. This demo is so superior to fifa 16 in MANY areas that EA will have to come with something special to earn my 70 bocks.

[Josam27o7]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Goodness though, guys. The space between the defensive line and attackers is starting to get to me. Defenders, including CB's, go past the halfway line IRL, they do not attack and defend at the same time - yet this is what happens in PES 17 demo.

From a positional standpoint, I'm a bit tired of the demo. From pure enjoyment of the ball physics, and player interactions, it makes me want to play more. In the end, I think it's time to put it down and just wait for the full version in a couple weeks.

Don't you think that they design it that way for multiplayer so the user has some outlet and doesn't feel consistently under siege. When playing the CPU you can close the space when the pass comes if you go quickly when it auto-switches. So it's not that bad.

Btw, if you play on superstar difficulty the space between the d-line and attackers isn't horrible because your midfielders push lower and eat the space so it's hard to get passes in.

Professional difficulty, from a cpu attacking standpoint is too easy.

[C.J.S.]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

7 0 10 camera angle manual passing is the magic formula for me.. You know i think Konami painted a beautiful picture but in order to see it default camera is to far away. You can defend and pass better at 7 0 10 camera...plus you'll enjoy the fighting for the ball more..

Trying to hold the lead...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pcv_SrqfY40" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[L4velle]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Can't decide on default speed or -1. Will keep doing a Ranieri until I'm happy.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[BL8001]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

You know how in practice mode you can drag the ball around to where you want to practice a free kick?

One day a game will let us do that on goal kicks.

Noticed in your vid how the keeper had the ball just inside the corner of the goal box. Fifa has it in the same place.

Small thing maybe, but each game has the mechanic already in place to give us the freedom.

[KG]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

I'm split on this. On one hand I can def see the issue, especially in the Boca/River example but in the Arsenal (Ramsey) clip that's how I would want to defend and how Arsenal does a lot with Per vs teams that don't offer much by the way of counter-attack. What's throwing it off is that it's Ramsey, a player who loves getting forward as opposed to Coq who is the protection. To me at least, that's actually good dual CDM play minus the obvious role reversal.

I think it should all be tactics based instead of hard-coded to do one thing over the other. For instance:

Pep at Bayern and now City play a different variation of tiki taka than Barca. Both clubs use (used in Bayern's case) a 4-3-3 and when in possession. Bayern/City push their FBs in (called "False Fullbacks" in PES 2017 with their wingers hugging the touch-line. Fernandhino and Xabi dropped in between the CBs, much like Ramsey to offer protection and the outlet for a back-pass or to spray balls to the flanks. Barca do the opposite with the FB's getting wide and Messi/Neymar coming in more centrally, working the triangles with quick (insane) interchanges.

When they lose possession it often appears that they're SOL BUT they push so many players up field that they simply swarm the opposition from playing out and win so many balls up the field (something represented well in PES 2017 playing against Barca. Look at the "Ball Winning" and you'll see they win/attempt to win the ball back high up the pitch. You're never going to out-footy them so teams that usually beat them beat them on the counter (Real 2013/14, Liverpool & Leicester did it in the preseason to an extent)

What I'd like to see is let my defenders or the CPU behave on preset instructions as opposed to the CPU/Human Teammates defending everything the same.

High/Deep line
CDM(s) drop deep
Pressure - Frontline to win the ball high up the pitch
etc...


What's disappointing about the demo is that so many tactical options are turned off.

I think the bigger issue is at 6:36 of Matt's last video where the player takes a shot that's parried by Cech wide to the left and immediately 2 Atletico players reverse course and sprint back to their positions/defense leaving basically Griezman alone up top to chase the rebound. IRL, Simeone or any manager would preach situational awareness along the lines of:

Someone closing down the ball.
Someone closing down outlets (maybe even the backpass to the keeper).

The only way I could see it differently is score based, if they're trying to protect a lead although they wouldn't be pushing #'s forward.

Forcing you to either risk playing it out OR the more likely course of action, hoofing it up field where you'd most likely have a defender running forward (easier to head the ball with a good running start) to head the ball back into the top of the box.



Papinho,

Is the issue in your video the CBs running away from the ST? I tried watching the feed but it was kind of hard following. If so, then yeah that's not good at all.



Good videos though guys and hopefully some defensive principles get sorted out although Konami will NEVER tell us. They'll say "Other gameplay issues that affect the user experience..."

[Ac3way]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Now i played four games with proffesional, way too easy. AI is almost broken there, if you defend properly. If you block passing lanes they just pass it to straight you. Also they lose all challenges on field, are too passive and it looks more like summer practice match than dynamic football.

Top Player was pretty fun after 8 games. It offers more natural looking gameplay than Superstar, but the difficulty just isnt there. CPU attacking is too slow and weak, so they dosent get many if none chances at match.

For me Superstar with manuals is only way to play game, but i like it. I still hope for more challenge PES 2017 full release.

Watched some minutes from Matt10 Professional Dificulty video/stream, that just made my toughts stronger. It's way too easy, but ofcourse its good to have options for every player. People like different things.

[BL8001]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Would it be easier to see the defensive issue with an overhead camera?

Going to play with blimp cam in a few hours so I can watch how they behave from above.

Maybe if they know the camera is showing them in real time they will behave better.

[Matt10]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Now i played four games with proffesional, way too easy. AI is almost broken there, if you defend properly. If you block passing lanes they just pass it to straight you. Also they lose all challenges on field, are too passive and it looks more like summer practice match than dynamic football.

Top Player was pretty fun after 8 games. It offers more natural looking gameplay than Superstar, but the difficulty just isnt there. CPU attacking is too slow and weak, so they dosent get many if none chances at match.

For me Superstar with manuals is only way to play game, but i like it. I still hope for more challenge PES 2017 full release.

Watched some minutes from Matt10 Professional Dificulty video/stream, that just made my toughts stronger. It's way too easy, but ofcourse its good to have options for every player. People like different things.

Instant Charge/Retreat mentality is the only reason I'm playing Professional at this point. It happens too often on Superstar and Top Player. It's a joke animation and ruins the immersion of properly being challenged. I've already made a video and said my peace about those difficulties, just needs tweaks, then we're good.

So for the demo, Professional has the right balance. I hope the full game comes out with the right tweaks, if not, it will be another PES 16 fix-a-thon.

[papinho81]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

Papinho,

Is the issue in your video the CBs running away from the ST? I tried watching the feed but it was kind of hard following. If so, then yeah that's not good at all.

Yeah sorry the video quality and my replay handling are both very poor.
It was more the two CB running away from the ball carrier, from the half line until they reach their penalty area. IRL this would have never happen. At least one of them would have tried to cut the ball carrier while the other would cover. Instead here they seemed to be attracted by Giroud and they sprinted in direction of their goal until they reach the line of their penalty area. This line seemed to act as wall on which they rebounded.

[C.J.S.]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

hopefully in the future sports games remove difficulty levels and sliders from there game, it's very unrealistic competition. when you play regular difficulty cpu players pass, shoot run with realistic accuracy but as you turn the difficulty up it all improves and becomes unrealistic. developers should improve ai making it less predictable like playing real people. when you play regular difficulty it's great to see Barcelona making errors in shooting and passing but the predictability is high. that's why regular difficulty's to easy for most.

sliders are a way for developers to do less work with programming making you fine tune the game to play good.

when you play your brother he beats you because he's unpredictable.

i wonder how fast messi is on regular vs top player.

hopefully i win the power ball so i can assemble a team of developers and do this right..

[jvalverde88]

Re: PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

hopefully in the future sports games remove difficulty levels and sliders from there game, it's very unrealistic competition. when you play regular difficulty cpu players pass, shoot run with realistic accuracy but as you turn the difficulty up it all improves and becomes unrealistic. developers should improve ai making it less predictable like playing real people. when you play regular difficulty it's great to see Barcelona making errors in shooting and passing but the predictability is high. that's why regular difficulty's to easy for most.

sliders are a way for developers to do less work with programming making you fine tune the game to play good.

when you play your brother he beats you because he's unpredictable.

i wonder how fast messi is on regular vs top player.

hopefully i win the power ball so i can assemble a team of developers and do this right..

Yeah that's not even remotely close to being true. Sliders are used to improve someone's enjoy with a game. Not everyone plays sport games the same.