Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

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  • Tstone77
    Rookie
    • Sep 2016
    • 156

    #16
    Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

    Originally posted by Celtics4Life
    Everyone that created a slasher basically got screwed (me included)
    My guy is fast without the ball runs up and down the floor with no problem once I get the ball forget it feels like I'm in mud can't even dribble past a center lol
    The first thing that popped in my head was...slashers got screwed. I don't know how this happened, huge mistake by 2k. Slashers are are maybe some of the best with the ball in their hands. They regularly have to dribble and maneuver through traffic. Dwayne Wade!

    Sent from my LGLS751 using Tapatalk

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    • DC
      Hall Of Fame
      • Oct 2002
      • 17996

      #17
      Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

      Did you factor in the accelration when you tested?
      Concrete evidence/videos please

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      • joosegoose
        Pro
        • Oct 2014
        • 889

        #18
        Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

        Originally posted by CBAT
        I had thought it would be a modifier. This how I would have implemented it:

        For example, someone with a 98 SWB would have very little difference between their Speed and their SWB. For example, Russell Westbrook at a 98 speed, with 98 SWB, real "Speed with Ball" would be 96.04 (98*.98), which is very fast! Curry on the other hand, is an 83 speed, but with the ball in his hands, would also be very little changed at 80.51 (83*.97). These high SWB ratings would be designated to the best ball handlers (like Russ & Curry).

        On the other end, someone like Tony Allen (sorry Tony) may be an 85 speed, but he is not a great ball handler. Therefore his SWB rating would be 70, which would drop his speed with ball to 59.5 (85*.70).
        Just an example^

        No way should anyone ever be faster with the ball in their hands than without. Like Tstone77 mentioned, there could be a dribbling quickness rating (not sure if handles already incorporates this), or something along those lines, which would allow someone like Steph Curry (or Kyrie), who are not the fastest guards in the league, faster handles. But Steph with the ball should not be the same speed as Westbrook without the ball. Meaning, if Steph has the ball and a step on Westbrook in the open court, Westbrook will not be able to run him down.
        Have to agree, this is the most sensible way to implement it, and what I assumed/hoped as well given that some guys have SWB ratings higher than their speed. However...

        Originally posted by CBAT
        I agree. The only other option than a modifier would be to make the SWB cap at whatever the player's speed is, therefore the player could not be any faster with the ball than they are without it, which could and would serve the same purpose.
        I think this would be the most aesthetically pleasing, and most likely 'good' implementation that's possible. If the rating is a modifier, a guy with athleticism ratings in the 40s who maybe isn't much slower with the ball would need a SWB rating of like 80+, which looks a little jarring. A cap on the rating where you can't go beyond the current speed rating (like you can't put a player's potential lower than his current overall) works pretty much as well and looks a lot better imo. Would require less changing of the overall calculation as well.

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        • CaseIH
          MVP
          • Sep 2013
          • 3945

          #19
          Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

          Originally posted by jeremym480
          Yeah, I noticed that Isaiah Thomas has 87 speed and 94 speed with the ball. So, I guess he can only run that fast when he has the ball in his hands

          It seems a little weird, but maybe there a reason behind it?

          Thats my thinking that there has to be a reason behind it, that or they screwed up which really sounds like what happened here. I dont care who you are, putting a ball in your hand isnt going to make you faster than you are without it. Some just happen to be faster while dribbling than others. So if a test was ran and Westbrook out runs Curry, but if Curry is dribbling then he is as fast as Westbrook is without a ball, then something is seriously wrong with this logic that was used by the devs. I know the devs know the game, so it has to be a mistake on their part, that hopefully they correct with a update.
          Everyone who exalts themselves will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted- Luke14-11

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          • ILLSmak
            MVP
            • Sep 2008
            • 2397

            #20
            Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

            Originally posted by eko718
            Speed with Ball is an excellent rating addition. This is so necessary for big men who are fast from end to end and defensively, but not necessarily with the ball in hand.

            The problem is not the rating addition, but rather the ratings allotted to players. I agree, 97 SWB rating makes no sense when your overall speed is 83. Solution; decrease Steph's SWB rating...problem solved. The issue is not with the rating category addition.

            Also, this category need not replace quickness because quickness already has two categories; lateral quickness and acceleration. I have no issue with addition of ratings and expansion of options. We should by no means encourage 2K to SUBTRACT from the options we have; just do it correctly.
            No reason to decrease (check out super awesome logic) just make it cap at... player speed.

            This is concerning because it does make you think the shot off dribble rating really is completely different from the regular shot... so some people might be better at shooting a crazy shot than a good shot. Nobody is like that. haha. They needed to give shot creator like 85 75 ratings for shooting and let them have a v small penalty for crazy shots. Not giving them a 90 rating when they are falling away, if that's true... and it seems like it is, with this discovery.

            -Smak

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            • zeric
              Pro
              • Aug 2016
              • 700

              #21
              Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

              I haven't seen this to be the case with myplayer in park or pro am. I have high speed and accel but garbage speed with ball but i still get separation while i have the ball.

              Comment

              • ballin095
                Pro
                • Jan 2008
                • 536

                #22
                Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                Originally posted by ILLSmak
                No reason to decrease (check out super awesome logic) just make it cap at... player speed.

                This is concerning because it does make you think the shot off dribble rating really is completely different from the regular shot... so some people might be better at shooting a crazy shot than a good shot. Nobody is like that. haha. They needed to give shot creator like 85 75 ratings for shooting and let them have a v small penalty for crazy shots. Not giving them a 90 rating when they are falling away, if that's true... and it seems like it is, with this discovery.

                -Smak
                Except Kobe

                Comment

                • eko718
                  MVP
                  • Sep 2005
                  • 2257

                  #23
                  Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                  Originally posted by CBAT
                  eko718 - I am not asking them to subtract the option, I love the idea of it, it is just that the implementation of the rating is completely incorrect.
                  Not you, others had suggested that.

                  Comment

                  • eko718
                    MVP
                    • Sep 2005
                    • 2257

                    #24
                    Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                    Originally posted by Tstone77
                    The only way the the rating works is with a modifier. Do you really think that if Blake griffin was dribbling down the court full speed that X guy who is slower than Blake griffin all of a sudden becomes faster because Blake has a ball?


                    Sent from my LGLS751 using Tapatalk
                    Blake Griffin's speed sprinting without the ball in hand will absolutely differ from when he is dribbling the ball. So X guy who is 'slower' than Blake Griffin could very possibly be faster when Blake is dribbling up court. In any case, when you say X guy is 'slower' than Blake in what context are you speaking of? With the ball, without the ball?

                    Dwight Howard had a sprint time faster than most guards in his draft combine testing. When he was younger, his speed was a big reason he was such a problem on defense. If you go by combine speeds Dwight Howard was faster than Chris Bosh running end to end, even though Bosh was considered to be relatively fast for a big. However if Dwight was dribbling down the court, Chris Bosh would obviously be faster than Dwight. Thus the logic for that rating separation. Just because Dwight was slow with the ball, doesn't mean that defensively he shouldn't be able to run down a guy on a fast break or should have been easily blown by even by slower guards on the perimeter.

                    It makes plenty sense that a big would have a slower speed with the ball than without... very clear why that would be the case. The interesting question for me is why many guards have faster speeds WITH the ball than without. Defensive speed and general speed or average speed when moving around the court(which is a statistical category by the way) may have something to do with how they derived those ratings.
                    Last edited by eko718; 09-19-2016, 07:00 PM.

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                    • pmmartin86
                      Rookie
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 40

                      #25
                      Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                      As somebody who is spending about 18/24 hours each day, dick deep in data while testing three different hypotheses, I found this post to be refreshing.
                      Last edited by pmmartin86; 09-19-2016, 07:05 PM.

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                      • jfsolo
                        Live Action, please?
                        • May 2003
                        • 12965

                        #26
                        Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                        Originally posted by eko718
                        Speed with Ball is an excellent rating addition. This is so necessary for big men who are fast from end to end and defensively, but not necessarily with the ball in hand.

                        The problem is not the rating addition, but rather the ratings allotted to players. I agree, 97 SWB rating makes no sense when your overall speed is 83. Solution; decrease Steph's SWB rating...problem solved. The issue is not with the rating category addition.

                        Also, this category need not replace quickness because quickness already has two categories; lateral quickness and acceleration. I have no issue with addition of ratings and expansion of options. We should by no means encourage 2K to SUBTRACT from the options we have; just do it correctly.
                        I'm stunned that it's not this way. I have no idea what they were thinking, it's fundamentally illogical.
                        Jordan Mychal Lemos
                        @crypticjordan

                        Do this today: Instead of $%*#!@& on a game you're not going to play or movie you're not going to watch, say something good about a piece of media you're excited about.

                        Do the same thing tomorrow. And the next. Now do it forever.

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                        • pmmartin86
                          Rookie
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 40

                          #27
                          Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                          Last year I saw an analytic which tracked the distance each player ran during the season and their average speed. Now, this could be an oversight on 2K's behalf and they really did think that a player could run faster while performing a task than they could while just sprinting, but maybe their thinking was, "without the ball, player A only moves this fast (possibly in an effort to conserve energy or they simply have a lack of desire), despite the fact that they have a much higher speed potential, however, they use that full potential with the ball because they are motivated to use their full speed."

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                          • Tstone77
                            Rookie
                            • Sep 2016
                            • 156

                            #28
                            Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                            Originally posted by eko718
                            Blake Griffin's speed sprinting without the ball in hand will absolutely differ from when he is dribbling the ball. So X guy who is 'slower' than Blake Griffin could very possibly be faster when Blake is dribbling up court. In any case, when you say X guy is 'slower' than Blake in what context are you speaking of? With the ball, without the ball?

                            Dwight Howard had a sprint time faster than most guards in his draft combine testing. When he was younger, his speed was a big reason he was such a problem on defense. If you go by combine speeds Dwight Howard was faster than Chris Bosh running end to end, even though Bosh was considered to be relatively fast for a big. However if Dwight was dribbling down the court, Chris Bosh would obviously be faster than Dwight. Thus the logic for that rating separation. Just because Dwight was slow with the ball, doesn't mean that defensively he shouldn't be able to run down a guy on a fast break or should have been easily blown by even by slower guards on the perimeter.

                            It makes plenty sense that a big would have a slower speed with the ball than without... very clear why that would be the case. The interesting question for me is why many guards have faster speeds WITH the ball than without. Defensive speed and general speed or average speed when moving around the court(which is a statistical category by the way) may have something to do with how they derived those ratings.
                            It was weird for you to bring up the Dwight being the fastest in his draft class then bring up Chris Bosh who was not part of that same class being able to catch him. I agree with you on the bigs dribbling slower with ball than with out the ball. The disagreement comes when you say that a big with an 87 speed rating should have a 60 or 70 SWB rating. That is a pretty drastic drop in my opinion. We as fans forget that these are all basketball players they can do everything at a above average level.
                            Dwight Howard can handle the ball just not as good as a guard could. Blake Griffin can dribble the ball, just not as good as a guard could. They should not take some Drastic hit in SWB ball rating cause I guarantee in the open court they have no problem getting baseline-to-baseline.
                            We are kind of seeing the evolution of this in the current NBA. With our "centers" being able to shoot, drive, pass, dribble. It truly is the era of "positionless basketball" The couch for Kentucky(name is slipping me) talked about how he stopped his players from doing certain things cause it didn't fit the scheme.

                            Sent from my LGLS751 using Tapatalk

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                            • Hustle Westbrook
                              MVP
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 3113

                              #29
                              Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                              Isn't that how the Shot Off Dribble Rating is? Where it's not a modifier so a Shot Creator My Player can have a 70 standing 3 ball but a 90 off the dribble one?

                              Let me find out that the Contested Shot Ratings are not modifiers either SMH!
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                              • Tstone77
                                Rookie
                                • Sep 2016
                                • 156

                                #30
                                Re: Speed With Ball Rating Test (SWB)

                                Originally posted by Hustle Westbrook
                                Isn't that how the Shot Off Dribble Rating is? Where it's not a modifier so a Shot Creator My Player can have a 70 standing 3 ball but a 90 off the dribble one?

                                Let me find out that the Contested Shot Ratings are not modifiers either SMH!
                                This all very saddening news

                                Sent from my LGLS751 using Tapatalk

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