Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

[JazzMan]

I posted this in the Rosters subforum, but another poster suggested I should post this here as well to try and raise awareness of this issue.

I've been doing some test sims today in MyLeague. Ratings untouched, generated draft classes.

I am heading into the 2021-2022 season.

Literally a third of the league is now Steph/Korver/Ray tier at Open Threes. Every team except Houston has at least one player with 90+ open three, and a majority of the time it's a player that just simply shouldn't be there.

Karl Anthony-Towns: 96 Open three
Meyers Leonard: 97 Open Three
Trey Lyles: 96 Open Three
Jamal Murray: 99 Open Three
Gary Harris: 95 Open Three
Dante Exum: 92 Open Three
Kristaps Porzingis: 97 Open Three
Brandon Ingram: 99 Open Three
D'Angelo Russell: 96 Open Three
Zach Lavine: 97 Open Three
Malachi Richardson: 99 Open Three
Alec Burks: 94 Open Three
Wade Baldwin: 99 Open Three
Caris LaVert: 99 Open Three
Denzel Valentine: 98 Open Three
Reggie Bullock: 99 Open Three
E'Twaun Moore: 99 Open Three

There's plenty more there, especially generated players.

Now, I am perfectly fine with some of these players reaching that level with their shooting. But when literally 3/4s of the league now has a 76+ Open Three, what's the point? Every game you play is going to be a three point shootout.

I've been advocating for separate potential ratings for years. Let there be an "Overall Potential" rating, which works the same way that it always has.

But allow us to cap jumpshooting ratings, defensive ratings, athleticism ratings, playmaking ratings, and inside scoring ratings.

If they could introduce a "Three-point Potential" rating, this problem wouldn't be there. Better yet, make it a range, where their floor is the worst that player will get at threes, and their ceiling is the absolute best that player will be at shooting threes.

Say Ben Simmons has a Three Point Potential range of 45-80 That means that at his worst, he's at 45, and at his best, he's at 80. But make it so that an 80 is pretty unlikely to reach. It'd take some luck and perhaps training to reach an 80 for him.

You could do the same with defense. Zach Lavine has a defensive potential of 50-85. Same would apply as the three-point potential with Simmons.

They preach to us about having control of MyLeague, but when the league develops the way it does, it's a pain to go in and edit everybody's ratings (although the quick edit feature certainly helps with this).

Just wanted to get this out there so people are aware that a few seasons into the League, everybody is going to be a lights out shooter from three unless they make the edits necessary to rebalance the league and make 40% three-point shooters valuable again.


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

I posted this in the Rosters subforum, but another poster suggested I should post this here as well to try and raise awareness of this issue.

I've been doing some test sims today in MyLeague. Ratings untouched, generated draft classes.

I am heading into the 2021-2022 season.

Literally a third of the league is now Steph/Korver/Ray tier at Open Threes. Every team except Houston has at least one player with 90+ open three, and a majority of the time it's a player that just simply shouldn't be there.

Karl Anthony-Towns: 96 Open three
Meyers Leonard: 97 Open Three
Trey Lyles: 96 Open Three
Jamal Murray: 99 Open Three
Gary Harris: 95 Open Three
Dante Exum: 92 Open Three
Kristaps Porzingis: 97 Open Three
Brandon Ingram: 99 Open Three
D'Angelo Russell: 96 Open Three
Zach Lavine: 97 Open Three
Malachi Richardson: 99 Open Three
Alec Burks: 94 Open Three
Wade Baldwin: 99 Open Three
Caris LaVert: 99 Open Three
Denzel Valentine: 98 Open Three
Reggie Bullock: 99 Open Three
E'Twaun Moore: 99 Open Three

There's plenty more there, especially generated players.

Now, I am perfectly fine with some of these players reaching that level with their shooting. But when literally 3/4s of the league now has a 76+ Open Three, what's the point? Every game you play is going to be a three point shootout.

I've been advocating for separate potential ratings for years. Let there be an "Overall Potential" rating, which works the same way that it always has.

But allow us to cap jumpshooting ratings, defensive ratings, athleticism ratings, playmaking ratings, and inside scoring ratings.

If they could introduce a "Three-point Potential" rating, this problem wouldn't be there. Better yet, make it a range, where their floor is the worst that player will get at threes, and their ceiling is the absolute best that player will be at shooting threes.

Say Ben Simmons has a Three Point Potential range of 45-80 That means that at his worst, he's at 45, and at his best, he's at 80. But make it so that an 80 is pretty unlikely to reach. It'd take some luck and perhaps training to reach an 80 for him.

You could do the same with defense. Zach Lavine has a defensive potential of 50-85. Same would apply as the three-point potential with Simmons.

They preach to us about having control of MyLeague, but when the league develops the way it does, it's a pain to go in and edit everybody's ratings (although the quick edit feature certainly helps with this).

Just wanted to get this out there so people are aware that a few seasons into the League, everybody is going to be a lights out shooter from three unless they make the edits necessary to rebalance the league and make 40% three-point shooters valuable again.


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I'm almost beginning to wonder if 2k is doing franchise mode development with this kind of thinking:

"Sure, there are a lot of problems with the AI logic for multiple year game saves, but that's a small part of our market and it doesn't generate any VC revenue. So do some new marketable features to the mode to keep it a bit fresh, but don't put any focus on making the modes "sim" over the long term. Things like CAP, trade logic, roster logic, draft classes, raft logic, sim stats. . . these are all nice but they don't sell games. Do what you can on the margins, but since we gave them all edit abilities, let them sort out what we don't get right on their own."

I don;t think the dev team assigned to MyLeague/MyGM thinks this way. But they get assignments and budgets, and the priorities get set by people above them.

[de_jesus]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

How does this develop with Player Progression between 20 and 30. Thats where I keep mine. Otherwise I get guys that are 90s everywhere

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[raidertiger]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

I'm almost beginning to wonder if 2k is doing franchise mode development with this kind of thinking:

"Sure, there are a lot of problems with the AI logic for multiple year game saves, but that's a small part of our market and it doesn't generate any VC revenue. So do some new marketable features to the mode to keep it a bit fresh, but don't put any focus on making the modes "sim" over the long term. Things like CAP, trade logic, roster logic, draft classes, raft logic, sim stats. . . these are all nice but they don't sell games. Do what you can on the margins, but since we gave them all edit abilities, let them sort out what we don't get right on their own."

I don;t think the dev team assigned to MyLeague/MyGM thinks this way. But they get assignments and budgets, and the priorities get set by people above them.

I hate to say it, but 2k is doing what we've been accusing Madden has done for years. Just go for the flashy feature instead of knocking down the fundamentals first.

Is expansion awesome? YES! It's an amazing feature no doubt. But it lacks all substance when basic issues still persist that ruin the whole experience. It's cool we can have 36 teams, but if contracts are messed up, team construction is awful, trade logic is still poor and everyone can shoot like Curry, expansion becomes an empty feature IMO.

[trekfan]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

I posted this in the Rosters subforum, but another poster suggested I should post this here as well to try and raise awareness of this issue.

I've been doing some test sims today in MyLeague. Ratings untouched, generated draft classes.

I am heading into the 2021-2022 season.

Literally a third of the league is now Steph/Korver/Ray tier at Open Threes. Every team except Houston has at least one player with 90+ open three, and a majority of the time it's a player that just simply shouldn't be there.

Karl Anthony-Towns: 96 Open three
Meyers Leonard: 97 Open Three
Trey Lyles: 96 Open Three
Jamal Murray: 99 Open Three
Gary Harris: 95 Open Three
Dante Exum: 92 Open Three
Kristaps Porzingis: 97 Open Three
Brandon Ingram: 99 Open Three
D'Angelo Russell: 96 Open Three
Zach Lavine: 97 Open Three
Malachi Richardson: 99 Open Three
Alec Burks: 94 Open Three
Wade Baldwin: 99 Open Three
Caris LaVert: 99 Open Three
Denzel Valentine: 98 Open Three
Reggie Bullock: 99 Open Three
E'Twaun Moore: 99 Open Three

There's plenty more there, especially generated players.

Now, I am perfectly fine with some of these players reaching that level with their shooting. But when literally 3/4s of the league now has a 76+ Open Three, what's the point? Every game you play is going to be a three point shootout.

I've been advocating for separate potential ratings for years. Let there be an "Overall Potential" rating, which works the same way that it always has.

But allow us to cap jumpshooting ratings, defensive ratings, athleticism ratings, playmaking ratings, and inside scoring ratings.

If they could introduce a "Three-point Potential" rating, this problem wouldn't be there. Better yet, make it a range, where their floor is the worst that player will get at threes, and their ceiling is the absolute best that player will be at shooting threes.

Say Ben Simmons has a Three Point Potential range of 45-80 That means that at his worst, he's at 45, and at his best, he's at 80. But make it so that an 80 is pretty unlikely to reach. It'd take some luck and perhaps training to reach an 80 for him.

You could do the same with defense. Zach Lavine has a defensive potential of 50-85. Same would apply as the three-point potential with Simmons.

They preach to us about having control of MyLeague, but when the league develops the way it does, it's a pain to go in and edit everybody's ratings (although the quick edit feature certainly helps with this).

Just wanted to get this out there so people are aware that a few seasons into the League, everybody is going to be a lights out shooter from three unless they make the edits necessary to rebalance the league and make 40% three-point shooters valuable again.


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

That is VERY worrisome. I'll hope a patch can tune that down, because that's simply way, way too high. The 3-pt shot is huge right now and, much like the NFL with passing, it will become the standard for the next generation of stars.

But no way those guys should have ratings that high.

If I may ask, what do the shot off dribble and contested shot ratings look like for the guys above? If those are similarly in the 90s (or even in the 80s), you have an army of virtual snipers.

At best, some of those guys should be capped at 75 in all 3-pt categories.

I'm wondering if In-Season training effects are to blame. Currently at the All-Star break in my MyLeague and some of my younger players have improved +1 overall, and there are players across the league like that -- that's more than I can remember in 2K16. The CPU usually sets training by player type, so if that's the case and effects at default are high, we may need to bump that slider down.

I had to slam the injury frequency and severity sliders to 17 to stop the flood of guys falling to the floor and it's possible a similar squashing is needed here.

Good find.

[turty11]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

Remove targeted player development during the year because that is what causes it, i confirmed this in previous years, you can force a guy who starts at a 25 3pt rating as a rookie to turn into an elite shooter in a few years.

More evidence in the book 2k is making the game for casual people who just want to score 130 points a game and think everyone is curry. The entire game this year seems to support that theory.

As far as potential goes i think it should work something like this

A Potential: POSSIBLE +15 to all attributes for best player type *A rebounding rookie can see a big increase to rebounding/inside/layups etc* and +5 to all other attributes **excluding drills**

B Potential: POSSIBLE +10 to player type attributes, +5 to others

C Potential: Possible +5 to all attributes

D/F Potential: Realistically don't or shouldn't exist aside from 2k's terrible generated draft classes so +2 to all possible

[Whomario]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

I believe the problem is revealed when you edit your training scheme for a player. A little hidden you can set open vs contested and it is set at 4 out of 100 or sth along those line, which would mean that the preset (likely the same for the cpu) is heavily biased towards practicing open 3s rather than a balanced mix of open and contested.

[Baebae32]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

We just need potentials for categories (3pt shooting, playmaking, etc) or potential for every rating in the game

[tleev]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

Well I have had a few guys hit high 3pt rating for open shots, but I weighted it heavily in their training regiment at the expense of some other attributes. What I cant get to develop is the contested shot rating (Mid&3pt) Even if I favor it 70-30 or so it only goes up like 2pts in a season and doesn't go up with year to year progression also.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

I just want to confirm this issue with some data.

I have a 2016 MyLeague save file that shows 5 players with open 3pt ratings > 95. Progress that file to 2019 and there are 17 players with open 3pt ratings > 95.

The players include a variety of ages, some generated and some maturing players approaching their primes, so it's a player progression issue, not so much a draft class issue.

Looking at the progression settings for shooting, they made some changes to the slider allocations to do training this year. They added a sub slider to 3pt shooting, called "Open vs Contested". By default, it looks like it's at zero, looking at an offensive archetype SG. For an athletic PG, the default is set to 3.0.

The visuals on this slider are deceiving, because it doesn't work like the other sliders in the player training screen where you are spending a percentage of 100 total points. This slider acts as a modifier to the points you already have allocated to 3 pt shooting. So while 3 pt shooting might be at, say, 5.5 points for a player type default training program for an SG, you can raise the sub slider to 100 and not spend any additional points.

So that means it works more like a tendencies slider for training. I'm assuming the Open vs Contested = 0 means all the training benefits go to open 3pt shooting. If you set the slider to 100, all the training benefit would go to contested. Set it to 50 and it will balance.

This year there is a new feature no one has really talked about where we can share training sliders with each other. So if you disable your ticker screen at the bottom you can see where you can pres triangle/Y for training sliders to assign to individual players.

People have uploaded some slider sets with labels for different types of player archetypes, so you can download and apply those to individual players. But it's not practical to do that for every player in the league, so this does need to be fixed by 2k.

The quickest short term work around for multi-year MyLeague players should be to go to the roster screen, scroll to the screen that shows all players, press start to enter edit mode, and then press triangle/Y to show individual ratings. Then scroll over to the open 3 pt ratings and press A/X to sort then in descending order.

Now you can see all the ratings across the league and adjust them down a little, player by player, using the right stick. When you're done, press start again, save your changes, and do this every year you play in the league. If you want, you can also boost the contests 3 pt ratings for the same players to balance this out a little, since right now all virtually the training development is being set to open instead of contested.

Without doing that, the progression system will break your league just a couple of years past 2016.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

Spoiler

I just want to confirm this issue with some data.

I have a 2016 MyLeague save file that shows 5 players with open 3pt ratings > 95. Progress that file to 2019 and there are 17 players with open 3pt ratings > 95.

The players include a variety of ages, some generated and some maturing players approaching their primes, so it's a player progression issue, not so much a draft class issue.

Looking at the progression settings for shooting, they made some changes to the slider allocations to do training this year. They added a sub slider to 3pt shooting, called "Open vs Contested". By default, it looks like it's at zero, looking at an offensive archetype SG. For an athletic PG, the default is set to 3.0.

The visuals on this slider are deceiving, because it doesn't work like the other sliders in the player training screen where you are spending a percentage of 100 total points. This slider acts as a modifier to the points you already have allocated to 3 pt shooting. So while 3 pt shooting might be at, say, 5.5 points for a player type default training program for an SG, you can raise the sub slider to 100 and not spend any additional points.

So that means it works more like a tendencies slider for training. I'm assuming the Open vs Contested = 0 means all the training benefits go to open 3pt shooting. If you set the slider to 100, all the training benefit would go to contested. Set it to 50 and it will balance.

This year there is a new feature no one has really talked about where we can share training sliders with each other. So if you disable your ticker screen at the bottom you can see where you can pres triangle/Y for training sliders to assign to individual players.

People have uploaded some slider sets with labels for different types of player archetypes, so you can download and apply those to individual players. But it's not practical to do that for every player in the league, so this does need to be fixed by 2k.

The quickest short term work around for multi-year MyLeague players should be to go to the roster screen, scroll to the screen that shows all players, press start to enter edit mode, and then press triangle/Y to show individual ratings. Then scroll over to the open 3 pt ratings and press A/X to sort then in descending order.

Now you can see all the ratings across the league and adjust them down a little, player by player, using the right stick. When you're done, press start again, save your changes, and do this every year you play in the league. If you want, you can also boost the contests 3 pt ratings for the same players to balance this out a little, since right now all virtually the training development is being set to open instead of contested.

Without doing that, the progression system will break your league just a couple of years past 2016.

Just to add, everything I said above also applies to mid range shots. They are also over developed for open shooting and under developed for contested shooting.

[trekfan]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

Spoiler

Just to add, everything I said above also applies to mid range shots. They are also over developed for open shooting and under developed for contested shooting.

Good notes on both. Looks like we'll need to do a "culling" at the beginning of every season to keep the numbers down of the league's best 3pt and mid-range shooters.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

This isn't a new issue though. Deep into Franchise modes last year nearly every cpu team had multiple 3 point shooters rated a 99.

[Mike Lowe]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

Interesting. Subscribing to see if this gains any traction. Has anyone tweeted this thread out?

[turty11]

Re: Overdevelopment of the Three Point Shot In MyLeague

In-season training effects - 20
Player Progression Rate - 45
Player Regression Rate - 55

2016 season end(April 1) i have 27 players with an open 3pt rating of 90 or higher (keep in mind this is with my own roster so this count doesn't reflect 2k's)

Beginning of 2017 there are 25 players(Not including 2k's rookies)

End of 2017(April 1) there 36 players with an open 3pt rating of 90 or higher(Not including 2k's rookies)

Beginning of 2018 there are 30 players(Not including 2k's rookies)

As far as 2k rookies go, there are now 6 players with open 3 of 90+ including a rookie with a 99 from 2k's auto gen draft at the beginning of the 3rd year

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In-season training effects - 50
Player Progression Rate - 50
Player Regression Rate - 50

2016 season end(April 1) i have 35 players with an open 3pt rating of 90 or higher (keep in mind this is with my own roster so this count doesn't reflect 2k's)

Beginning of 2017 there are 32 players(Not including 2k's rookies)

End of 2017(April 1) there 50 players with an open 3pt rating of 90 or higher(Not including 2k's rookies)

Beginning of 2018 there are 53 players(Not including 2k's rookies)


This without a doubt, confirms my suspicion that training effects are destroying future years of myleague..as usual