MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

[tessl]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

The developers probably already know this and don't do it for a valid reason but High Heat allowed you to get a player eligible at a position by putting him at a position in milb. Over the course of IIRC 3 years he would become fully eligible at that position if you left him there in the minors.

The upside was you got a young prospect eligible at a new position, something which does happen IRL.

The downside - and possibly why the Show hasn't implemented it - you could get a guy with Mark McGwire's physique and attributes eligible to play as a serviceable shortstop.

If there was a way to program around the obvious downside of High Heat's system this could be an improvement.

[JayD]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Will CPU controlled teams take these attribute hits into consideration when setting a line up?

[Russell_SCEA]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Will CPU controlled teams take these attribute hits into consideration when setting a line up?

Yes but I'm not sure the CPU plays people out of position often to begin with.

[@legendm0de]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

cant complain about the new mechanism, id like to know more about defensive catcher distinctions.. im also curious on the reaction rating and if it changes especially on massive defensive switches like OF to 2B

[Caulfield]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Just wanted to pop in and say these little morsels are what keep me from going bat-****-crazy while waiting for release day.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to keep us in the loop. Much appreciated , Mr. Russell!

[Russell_SCEA]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

cant complain about the new mechanism, id like to know more about defensive catcher distinctions.. im also curious on the reaction rating and if it changes especially on massive defensive switches like OF to 2B

The way the game works now if you play anyone out of position (it changes if it's the 2nd and SS) after a ball is hit to them and when you see what happens you won't continue that behavior for very long.

[HarlemYankee]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Good stuff Ramone... Does the same logic for SS & 2B apply to a CF who gets moved to a corner outfield spot? Your best, most rangy outfielder is always going to be your center fielder and CF who get forced to a corner outfield spot later in their career normally make the transition pretty seamless.

If I were to, say, have Kevin Kiermeier but I went and made a trade for Kevin Pillar, he wouldn't get docked for having to switch to LF would he? It would almost seem like he'd actually get a boost in his defensive rating.

[p00p1]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Players already take attribute hits when they are playing fatigued.

Sorry, I meant it would be nice to show the degraded attributes visually when fatigued.

[@legendm0de]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Sorry, I meant it would be nice to show the degraded attributes visually when fatigued.

They won't have time to showcase that this year, I think is what he said.

Good stuff Ramone... Does the same logic for SS & 2B apply to a CF who gets moved to a corner outfield spot? Your best, most rangy outfielder is always going to be your center fielder and CF who get forced to a corner outfield spot later in their career normally make the transition pretty seamless.

If I were to, say, have Kevin Kiermeier but I went and made a trade for Kevin Pillar, he wouldn't get docked for having to switch to LF would he? It would almost seem like he'd actually get a boost in his defensive rating.

Yea, I look forward to route and jump out of position outfielders will get in this system, that was my basis for the question about reactions. I hope that we get that deer in the headlights facial expression when fly balls blasted to them.

[TheCoastIsBen]

Re: Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Russell, Thanks for the inside look. I know personally I check this site daily for any little morsel of information. So this made my day.

Obviously having dynamic stats on the lineup page before a game would be great but I'll take a revamped out of position player system any day.

[JohnDoe8865]

Just wanna chime in and give you a huge thanks Russell_SCEA. It's extremely rare that a developer, much less a lead developer gives the community this kind of insight into how the sausage is made, so to speak. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say, t's greatly appreciated and really unique to you and the SDS team.

[jgb3]

Re: MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Russell - One of my concerns that I have as a frequent dynasty player is that is very hard to readily calculate a player's secondary position ratings (fielding & reaction) when doing a draft or searching for a trade target. It would be helpful if there was a way to target players who have a certain fielding rating at a given position.

[Moss44]

Re: MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Russell, first thanks for being so inclusive of the OS community in all of your decision making. Second, having to do with primary/secondary positions, would it ever be feasible for you guys to allow us to give a player multiple primary positions, or maybe the ability to select specific distinct secondary positions for created and RTTS players? (For example if there is a shortstop utility player, rather than selecting IF/OF for him you could have his secondary positions be 2B/3B/LF/RF which isn't an existing combination)

[Bobhead]

Re: MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

So yesterday we had a little game design round-table with everyone on how to handle playing out of position better. (First and foremost we weren't going to talk about this in a vlog or the streams. So that's why we are talking about this now.) We hope you guys enjoy this little behind the scenes look.

A little back story on how we got here, I sent an email to one of the programmers inquiring what could be done to A. make utility players more valuable, B. discourage people from playing guys out of position (especially in DD) to get more bats in the lineup, and C. make secondary positions matter more.

A few of us (I'm lying it was just me) wanted to go full napalm and just completely nerf anyone playing out of position which we currently do in some instances. However SS and 2nd baseman shouldn't get nerfed too bad playing other IF positions. But we all know that strong defensive SS for example could probably play a decent 2nd base if he had to, right?

That's the cliff notes version of how the round-table came to be. (fyi this all happened over the course of the last 3 work days Saturday, Sunday and Monday) After we all talked and hashed it out here's the email the lead programmer sent everyone after he made the changes based on the discussion. (There are no edits to the email just raw information enjoy.)

"I (Jeff lead programmer) just checked in the following changes:

• Gill (Lead Gameplay Producer you've seen Gill on all the Gameplay streams) and I made few changes to the out-of-position table to penalize guys a little more in certain combinations
• When calculating a fielder’s attribute when he’s out of position, it will now look at his secondary positions as well as his primary position and will calculate his attribute for each position he can play using the out-of-position chart. His attribute will be the highest of these values.
• Any fielder playing middle infielder that does not have at least one of the middle infielder positions as a primary or secondary position will now use the out-of-position double play turns, regardless of his fielding attribute after the out-of-position adjustment.
• Any left handed fielder playing C, 2B, 3B or SS will only receive 10% of their fielding attribute (which will force missed branches.)

Here are a few examples that is impacted by a couple of these changes:

Player A. on Houston is a 3B with LF and SS as secondary positions. His fielding ability is 83. I moved him to 2nd base. Using the old logic, he would have lost 40% of his attribute, leaving him as about a 49.

With the new logic, since player A. has SS as a secondary position, it uses the SS  2B penalty instead of the 3B  2B penalty, which is only 10%. We also take the extra 5% off because we’re basing this off of a secondary position, but even with a 15% penalty, he’s now only brought down to a 70 instead of 49. Also, since he has SS as a secondary position, he’s still allowed to use the normal double play turns.

Another example: player B. is a 3B with no secondary positions and a fielding ability of 84. I move him to 2nd base. A 3B playing 2B is penalized 40%, so that would leave him with an attribute of about 50. This is above the “low ability” cutoff of 30, so using the old logic, he would have been able to do the athletic double play turns. With the new logic, since he’s not able to play either of the middle infield positions, he’ll only use the out-of-position double play turns. Any of his other throws will still branch, but his DP turns will be significantly slower than a normal 2B.

Also, when Gill and I adjusted the chart, we made it so that no outfielder moved into the infield would end up with fielding ability above 30. This will ensure that outfielders playing in the infield are always treated as “low ability”. Unless, of course, they have a secondary infield position that causes them to get less of a penalty.

Disclaimer we are still testing and there is a possibility we might change things so nothing is concrete. (We aren't taking suggestions)However we hope you all enjoy this incoherent behind the scenes look at The Show take care.

Wow... This is fantastic. A huge step in the right direction. I agree with the basic premise 100%, which is that different transitions should be gauged differently. Your SS --> 2B example, the underlying rationale and the described result are all spot on.

If I had to come up with one concern, it would be that the penalty for being a lefty seems harsh. I know few lefties have played those positions but that is because of the extra time on transitions and throws, not because they can't catch. I like the idea of forcing them to miss branching animations, but I wouldn't like to see a high number of fielding errors just because they are lefty... You get what I'm saying?

Obviously this is a tiny problem in practice since most people will never notice the lefty penalty (since most people will never play a lefty in those positions in the first place. A very tiny quibble in the long run since there aren't actually any lefties at these positions, but I can see the argument for someone making a weird player in RTTS or something.

tl;dr I think eliminate the fielding penalty and simply ban lefties from using any branch/transition animations at those positions. That seems like more than enough. Other than that, I love this idea a lot.

[ninertravel]

Re: MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

Wait so will this mean we will finally be able to have a player have more then 1 secondary position? because I know it is possible because guys Like Prado and Zoberist are, yet we CAN"T edit any other player in that way.

the stupid CPU always changed their lineup after 1 innings because a guy's position is incorrect. you can't have a IF that is also ALL OF he has to be a LF then make him IF can be frustrating, because you can't have him at RF or CF without the CPU having a dummy spit and changing it after 1 innings