NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

[Vroman]

Having lots of fun with nba 2k11 revisit lately. Game is aged in some ways, but some area of basketball simulation is still unmatched compared to latest nba 2k games, especially 2k17.

I love how defense doesn't feel broken without any adjustment put into it. Players rotate/help to cover mismatches and don't double from offensive player 1 pass away distance like in current game.

Look at this example I've recorded:

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/FaroffSmallCockatiel' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

Notice how Perkins instantly rotate to cover Okafor who was about to be mismatched near paint with Rondo on him, then P.Pierce standing in between 2 of my players not giving up one of them widely open and finally rondo making final rush to close out 3pt shot (I needed to do extra pass for an open look rather than defense just collapsing leaving shooter open with just one pass). I still ended up scoring 3 point shot as i was only playing at all star difficulty and on higher one i might of missed that shot with Ariza.

I'm really wondering why defenders so dumbed down this year and instead they have impossible footwork to stay in front of any elite dribbler. I have never seen cpu AI play smart double team or try to rotate on mismatch. I like to play with good post scorers and it baffles me to see how defenders not care if I'm about to score on blatant mismatch and only send some terrible double teams , even leaving someone open under basket.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some more plays recorded:

1)Another double screen. This time one of big rolls to the basket, but i fail to create anything from it. Artest hedges of the screen quite well and I got almost nothing to work with.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/CalculatingPlushElephant

2) About to beat D.Fisher off the dribble, extra player collapse into paint and Artest hovers between Ariza and West, last moment he goes to cover west and Ariza misses open 3 off an extra pass.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/CloudySpryHerring

3)Just an impact of good defender like Artest. Denies Ariza off the spot then uses the active hands to strip the ball.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/AmbitiousTautDarklingbeetle

4)After running that play dozen of times, first time defense do terrible with weak double team leaving Bellineli wide open on 3pt, bad rotation from Kobe too. Still had to use icon pass to hit him there and i probably wouldn't have seen it if played on 2k cam.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/SlimyWindyArcticduck

5)That double on Ariza caught me off guard, I could just take jumpshot there with West, but panicked and made bad pass. I really like how it can be unpredictable sometime and I have to react really quick or I'll fail like here.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/IdealGreedyAmazontreeboa

6) And favorite offensive highlight so far. S.Blake stood no chance to keep up with cp3 and nice crafty finish near the rim:

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/ChiefFatAfricanporcupine

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

My God that is beautiful.

The switching on the double screen is smooth and seamless. There's no slow and sluggish backpedaling animation and players can turn around and move laterally in a normal fashion. No idiots rotating off the shooters in the corner and giving up wide open corner threes. Defenders manage to stay between their man and the basket and prevent any of those weak dump off passes for cheap points in the paint. Rondo also recognizes that it's his job to rotate to Ariza so he urgently runs out to contest the shot instead of just standing in the paint doing nothing. Oh and Perkins actually boxes out Okafor as to prevent any offensive rebounds.

Goodness I didn't realize just how bad we've had it with the awful defense the past 2 years. You can hardly defend a basic pick and roll in 2K17, you try to run a double screen and your AI teammates might start to malfunction and glitch trying to defend that ****.

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Nevermind the switching; 2 of those passes would have been intercepted in 17. I still have my ps3 because of splinter cell, so I might invest in a copy.

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Your video also exposes a huge glaring problem that was present in all the last-gen 2K's. 2K17 AI has a tough time with Pick and Roll Defense, but those 2K's had very little concept of Pick and Roll *Offense*. Watch how Okafor and West just bunch up and don't move after setting their screens, that used to happen all the time.

You're right about the (somewhat) smart switching, but there were so many other problems in that game that have since evolved into what we expect from NBA offense, thanks to Da Czar, et al.

[de_jesus]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I think one of the key things that isn't talked about enough is how lazy the defense is. They tend to walk or trot to their assignments for no real reason. They'll come off a screen or pick n roll and just saunter to over to their assignments leaving a guy wide open for way too long.

In the image you show the rotation and response is immediate, and the recovery is immediate and fast paced. It annoys me so much about 2K17 that my defense will just haphazardly guard their assignments.

[Vroman]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I think one of the key things that isn't talked about enough is how lazy the defense is. They tend to walk or trot to their assignments for no real reason. They'll come off a screen or pick n roll and just saunter to over to their assignments leaving a guy wide open for way too long.

In the image you show the rotation and response is immediate, and the recovery is immediate and fast paced. It annoys me so much about 2K17 that my defense will just haphazardly guard their assignments.

That play isn't good, but the defense rotation is the key point i wanted to showcase.

2k11 has bunch of things wrong, but its weird how such complex and important aspect of the game is well done that i'm almost thinking they would have better chance making excellent sim game by improving 2k11 rather 2k17.

I'll try to record more once i get down to play it again.

[isdatyt]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I think it's the classic "What separates AI from humans" issue. This play looked decent on defense, until Pierce inexplicably decides David West is more dangerous on the perimeter than Ariza. I feel like defense is never going to be perfect in this game. Defense is 100% mental. So many players have the physical tools to be great defenders but it doesn't pan out for most of them as far as being elite at it. It's mental. It's knowing exactly what to give up, knowing what to take away, knowing when to reach, when to switch or rotate early. It's a snap decision every second and the wrong choice ends in a bucket. It's why Tony Allen has been in the league over a decade despite being one of the worst offensive players on any team. I feel for developers trying to get that perfectly in the game without creating a team of impenetrable death-bots, that are capable of stopping everything the offense can do.

Offense is so easy to quantify, but defense is incredibly hard, in almost any sports game, let alone one as fast-paced as NBA basketball. Not to make excuses for them, but I can see why defense is consistently an area of struggle for 2K.

[Vroman]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I think it's the classic "What separates AI from humans" issue. This play looked decent on defense, until Pierce inexplicably decides David West is more dangerous on the perimeter than Ariza. I feel like defense is never going to be perfect in this game. Defense is 100% mental. So many players have the physical tools to be great defenders but it doesn't pan out for most of them as far as being elite at it. It's mental. It's knowing exactly what to give up, knowing what to take away, knowing when to reach, when to switch or rotate early. It's a snap decision every second and the wrong choice ends in a bucket. It's why Tony Allen has been in the league over a decade despite being one of the worst offensive players on any team. I feel for developers trying to get that perfectly in the game without creating a team of impenetrable death-bots, that are capable of stopping everything the offense can do.

Offense is so easy to quantify, but defense is incredibly hard, in almost any sports game, let alone one as fast-paced as NBA basketball. Not to make excuses for them, but I can see why defense is consistently an area of struggle for 2K.

Hard to tell if Pierce decision was bad. West 84 midrange, Ariza 73 3pt ratings there and Rondo wasn't far from closing Ariza in time. Its just difference of immersion to me when I see defenders so responsive and active and I really don't think the logic can get better than this. It would even be unrealistic if they rotate super fast and never leave anybody open. You do the defensive adjustments to stop certain offensive plays that are normally difficult to stop rather than trying to make your defenders less dumb in basic sutuation.

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Offense is so easy to quantify, but defense is incredibly hard, in almost any sports game, let alone one as fast-paced as NBA basketball. Not to make excuses for them, but I can see why defense is consistently an area of struggle for 2K.

Except this stuff is quantified. "How many times did the offensive player X get to the basket when player Y on defense went under the screen, no defensive switch, and nobody came to help?", stats like that do exist. It gets even more sophisticated than that.

Just pointing out that the whole "there are no good defensive stats" argument is a myth. And those I mentioned can be used to figure out the way in which teams and individual players work their defensive schemes, and how effective they are.

[EccentricMeat]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

That play isn't good, but the defense rotation is the key point i wanted to showcase.

2k11 has bunch of things wrong, but its weird how such complex and important aspect of the game is well done that i'm almost thinking they would have better chance making excellent sim game by improving 2k11 rather 2k17.

I'll try to record more once i get down to play it again.

I think your video is a little cherry-picked, honestly. The switching looks very similar to 2k17, you just got lucky in that this play the guy left open on the switch (Okafor I believe? Jersey #50) stood right next to his teammate so that they both were accidentally guarded by 1 defender. That defender isn't "guarding two people", he's guarding one while the 2nd just stands next to him.

Defense out of the box in 2k17 isn't great, I'll give you that. But simple slider tweaks can fix almost every issue brought up in this thread.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I think your video is a little cherry-picked, honestly. The switching looks very similar to 2k17, you just got lucky in that this play the guy left open on the switch (Okafor I believe? Jersey #50) stood right next to his teammate so that they both were accidentally guarded by 1 defender. That defender isn't "guarding two people", he's guarding one while the 2nd just stands next to him.

Defense out of the box in 2k17 isn't great, I'll give you that. But simple slider tweaks can fix almost every issue brought up in this thread.

Sliders aren't doing anything for people that play this game online, which is the majority of the 2K players. They're stuck with whatever awful defense 2K releases the game with.

[Vroman]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Some more plays recorded:

1)Another double screen. This time one of big rolls to the basket, but i fail to create anything from it. Artest hedges of the screen quite well and I got almost nothing to work with.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/CalculatingPlushElephant' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

2) About to beat D.Fisher off the dribble, extra player collapse into paint and Artest hovers between Ariza and West, last moment he goes to cover west and Ariza misses open 3 off an extra pass.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/CloudySpryHerring' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

3)Just an impact of good defender like Artest. Denies Ariza off the spot then uses the active hands to strip the ball.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AmbitiousTautDarklingbeetle' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

4)After running that play dozen of times, first time defense do terrible with weak double team leaving Bellineli wide open on 3pt, bad rotation from Kobe too. Still had to use icon pass to hit him there and i probably wouldn't have seen it if played on 2k cam.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/SlimyWindyArcticduck' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

5)That double on Ariza caught me off guard, I could just take jumpshot there with West, but panicked and made bad pass. I really like how it can be unpredictable sometime and I have to react really quick or I'll fail like here.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/IdealGreedyAmazontreeboa' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

6) And favorite offensive highlight so far. S.Blake stood no chance to keep up with cp3 and nice crafty finish near the rim:

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/ChiefFatAfricanporcupine' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

[Black Bruce Wayne]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

This is what I remember from NBA 2k11

https://youtu.be/K-A4pd8yNiA

https://youtu.be/rERVuA95o8E

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[ch46647]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Some more plays recorded:

1)Another double screen. This time one of big rolls to the basket, but i fail to create anything from it. Artest hedges of the screen quite well and I got almost nothing to work with.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/CalculatingPlushElephant' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

2) About to beat D.Fisher off the dribble, extra player collapse into paint and Artest hovers between Ariza and West, last moment he goes to cover west and Ariza misses open 3 off an extra pass.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/CloudySpryHerring' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

3)Just an impact of good defender like Artest. Denies Ariza off the spot then uses the active hands to strip the ball.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AmbitiousTautDarklingbeetle' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

4)After running that play dozen of times, first time defense do terrible with weak double team leaving Bellineli wide open on 3pt, bad rotation from Kobe too. Still had to use icon pass to hit him there and i probably wouldn't have seen it if played on 2k cam.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/SlimyWindyArcticduck' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

5)That double on Ariza caught me off guard, I could just take jumpshot there with West, but panicked and made bad pass. I really like how it can be unpredictable sometime and I have to react really quick or I'll fail like here.

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/IdealGreedyAmazontreeboa' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

6) And favorite offensive highlight so far. S.Blake stood no chance to keep up with cp3 and nice crafty finish near the rim:

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/ChiefFatAfricanporcupine' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

Great video examples!

Side note- I've never played 2K11 but I am impressed with how quick and responsive the player movement looks on offense AND defense. Also, I'm not seeing any of those defensive "stone wall" animations or any warping by defenders to get back into position.

Can we please get back to this kind of free moving/responsive player movement 2K? Preferably for 2K18....

[raiderphantom]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I still play 2K11 regularly. It does excel in a lot of areas but switching isn't one of them. Hard hedging is the default pnr defense so jumping out on a screen doesn't make the on ball defender think it's a switch. Spamming LT/L2 can help but it's not reliable. Still, defense did a lot of things well outside of spamming of paint passes. I love how you can actually bump players off ball in last gen. Now they just go right through you for a layup or alley oop