Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Phillyboi207]

Can we have all of the amazing posts regarding head movement copied on here?

And all those who oppose please let us know why(Still wanna know if it’s anyone besides Solid Altar)

Just to clarify team head movment wants the range of motion/ control of fight night. At least for the guys with super high head movement ratings.

It wouldnt be broken because kicks/grappling make it impossible to rely on. You’re open to all kicks, and your opponent should have a pretty big grapple advantage when using it.

Thoughts?

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Why I personally don't want 360 head movement in UFC 3 (I'd like it in a future game, but I don't want it in this one) is because of the analogue punch reading, which is something I really, really doubt they'll change.

My concern would be that if they basically tacked full head movement control on at the end of development, there could be a "magic angle" that would avoid almost all strike animations (kinda how leaning back worked in 2 tbh). Because all the strike are animated to hit the head on the center line and don't track at all, like if someone stays ducking your fighter doesn't jab down at them or lower their hooks, they'll just keep winging strikes at where their head is "supposed" to be.

This could cause, for example, ducking down to the left or right, to avoid uppercuts and knees that go up the center line and straight and hooking punches, and perhaps even high kicks depending on the angle. I'm aware that this is a fairly apocalyptic scenario for the feature, but I'm just using it to illustrate a point.

To be 100% clear, full 360 degree head movement in a future game with the striking system built to account for it would be awesome, but I think shoving it into 3 a month before launch would be ****

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

360 head movement ONLY for fighters with high 80s and up head movement rating. Most UFC fighters do not utilize good head movement.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Continuing from the Stamina topic.

Seriously, not having full control head-movement is as weird as not having full control footwork. Imagine if the only way to move was by doing the little hops when you flick your stick..

That's exactly how silly the current head-movement system is. Not sure why some of you aren't seeing it.

I understand how that may appeal to intuition. But they are very different. Diagonal movement and the diagonal spectrum are both important for "dancing". Diagonal head movement isn't required at all.

It has nothing to do with wanting to "dance" Altair. All head-movement is not created equal. You have defense, counter and offense oriented head-movement. They're not the same thing.

Defensive head-movement:










These are large swaying motions in just about every direction.

Pro's
- You're making your head as hard to hit as possible.


Neutral
Preemptive

Con's
- There's no way to setup a counter if your opponent misses unless they literally run into your punch
- Tiring
- Susceptible to leg kicks
- Susceptible to takedowns


Counter oriented head-movement:









These are short & fast-twitch motions that barely make your opponent miss


Pro's
- Set's up powerful counters
- Doesn't cost as much stamina

Neutral
- Reactionary

Con's
- Significant consequences if you fail to do it correctly
- Difficult to pull off

Case in point:





Offensive head-movement



Swaying left, right or ducking while moving forward into your opponents range

Pro's
- Loads up punches depending on which way you're swaying (hooks or overhands basically)
- Masks your intentions and keeps your opponent guessing (you can takedown, punch or just retreat right afterwards)

Neutral
Preemptive

Con's
- Tiring
If predicted:
- Susceptible to uppercuts
- Susceptible to (flying) knees
- Susceptible to body strikes
- Susceptible to leg kicks
- Susceptible to takedowns

---------------------


In the UFC3 beta, the only thing we've got is the offense oriented head movement masquerading as the other two.

On top of that, UFC3's dodging mechanics are binary. Certain sways dodge certain punches 100% of the time.


TL;DR

Instead of head-movement being a dangerous game of timing and distance management like it is in real life, they've turned it into rock-paper-scissors.

I don't see how anyone can defend that honestly.

[MartialMind]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Continuing from the Stamina topic.




It has nothing to do with wanting to "dance" Altair. All head-movement is not created equal. You have defense, counter and offense oriented head-movement. They're not the same thing.

Defensive head-movement:










These are large swaying motions in just about every direction.

Pro's
- You're making your head as hard to hit as possible.


Neutral
Preemptive

Con's
- There's no way to setup a counter if your opponent misses unless they literally run into your punch
- Tiring
- Susceptible to leg kicks
- Susceptible to takedowns


Counter oriented head-movement:









These are short & fast-twitch motions that barely make your opponent miss


Pro's
- Set's up powerful counters
- Doesn't cost as much stamina

Neutral
- Reactionary

Con's
- Significant consequences if you fail to do it correctly
- Difficult to pull off

Case in point:





Offensive head-movement



Swaying left, right or ducking while moving forward into your opponents range

Pro's
- Loads up punches depending on which way you're swaying (hooks or overhands basically)
- Masks your intentions and keeps your opponent guessing (you can takedown, punch or just retreat right afterwards)

Neutral
Preemptive

Con's
- Tiring
If predicted:
- Susceptible to uppercuts
- Susceptible to (flying) knees
- Susceptible to body strikes
- Susceptible to leg kicks
- Susceptible to takedowns

---------------------


In the UFC3 beta, the only thing we've got is the offense oriented head movement masquerading as the other two.

So I'll ask again, why do some people feel that's superior to having full control?

Incredible post dude. A+

[AydinDubstep]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

To be 100% clear, full 360 degree head movement in a future game with the striking system built to account for it would be awesome, but I think shoving it into 3 a month before launch would be ****

This is the main thing that is a negative imo. Switching from the 1 - 0, on / off, to 360 volleyball style will I guess take time to get right, right?

My reasons for 360 style:
- It'll allow us to move from one head slot to another, without having to reset.
- It'll allow a greater range of motion enabling more "safe zones". Very subtle ranges of motion to make them miss.
- It'll contribute to distance management by giving you more options for staying at the punching range.
- Allows reactive defence instead of only predictive / proactive defence. This basically means seeing a punch coming then moving your head to make them miss.
- Gives us greater defensive control & freedom of movement.
- Allows for greater creativity & illusive movements.

How the mechanics might work:
The attacker's fist would probably aim for where the defender's head was during the early frames of the attacker's punch execution and then depending somewhat on the attacking fighter's accuracy, will continue to follow that initial trajectory.

Fighters with higher accuracy perhaps will be able to follow the head with their fist for a longer duration of the animation frame time making it more difficult to evade their shots.

The defender's head movement could have a stat tied to it which could effect the speed and range of motion available.

To stop it looking janky with foot movement, perhaps this head movement style requires stationary feet placement? Then you can use the stick & transition at the end of a particular head slot into a footwork motion to move off without bringing the head back to centre.

Fighters with lower stats could have crappier animations making them look and feel less fluid & making it easier to find their head.

A possible alternative compromise: more head slot zones instead of full 360 movement.

Instead of forward (F), left (L), back (B), right (R), have FL, L, BL, B, BR, R, FR and leave duck as is.

Allow the defender to move from one slot to another. Certain slots should work better together for evasion for example going from Forward left to back or back right should avoid a hook, whereas forward left to forward or forward right isn't really going to save you except perhaps mitigate some damage.

Layer your 360 head movement visual ontop of it to smooth it out and it could work for now.

This at least gives us some more angles to work with and is not an entirely new system.



One hurdle I can think of to this system is what if people keep their head between two slots & just switch between the two really quickly when the punch comes. In that case, maybe a minimum requirement for moving, from a certain angle to another or perhaps distance, is a solution but then we've ended up in 360 territory again, where a full 360 system would make more sense. hmmmmm

A quick point about countering 360 head movement beasts:
- knee to the body
- knee to the head
- stepping elbow
- leg kicks
- takedowns
- thai plum (if he leans forward)
- clinch
- combination punching
- front kicks
- head kicks
- body punches
- head control (not in the game, think Jon Jones using his hand to find their face / head before punching or as a defense e.g. against R.Jackson)

Whereas in FNC we had:
- head punches
- body punches
- clinch / grab


EDIT: THE GUY ABOVE (DaisukEasy) ABSOLUTELY NAILED IT!! o_O

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

To add to what I previously said. Going into a defensive shell and just avoiding and blocking punches to weather a storm is a pretty common thing.

So we should also be able block while moving our head.

Most recent example:



He's not just blocking, he's not just moving his head. He's doing both.

Pro's
- You're really hard to hit.

Con's
- More tiring than just head movement or blocking.
- Even more susceptible to take-downs, clinching, leg kicks, body shots
- No offensive ability at all
- If something does manage to connect clean, it should be the equivalent of a counter hit




The ones you don't see coming are the ones that hurt you the most.

Example of people getting moving their head and blocking at the same time but getting hit anyway. Spoiler alert, they have a bad time.







On top of being realistic it would prevent this tactic from being overpowered & abused.

[LittleEvil]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I am 100% behind the post that said 360 head movement for ratings 80 or higher.

Having everyone have 360 movement would honestly be worse than the current system.

I also think the 360 head movement should be slower and more refined than UFC 2 before implemented in any way. Solid Altair's post about "dancing" seems ridiculous, but if the speed of the movement isn't done right he unfortunately could have a point. I definitely don't agree with his post, just pointing out it would be important to make sure the speed of the movements is realistic, and you can't just spazz out all over the place

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

In the UFC3 beta, the only thing we've got is the offense oriented head movement masquerading as the other two.

I completely disagree.

UFC 3 has the defensive and offensive head movement as described in your post, with the defensive one masquerading as the third.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I completely disagree.

UFC 3 has the defensive and offensive head movement as described in your post, with the defensive one masquerading as the third.

Where?

I didn't see any nuanced, reactionary, timing & distance management based head movement in the beta, just preemptive rock-paper-scissors.

[emmdeekay]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I like the simplicity and predictability of the head movement the way it is now. I like knowing if my opponent is opening up with hooks I should duck. I like conditioning people to dodge one way and then switch it up knowing if I time it right it's gonna work.

Personally I think the UFC 3 head movement is the best in any combat sports game to date and I think changing anything this close to release would compromise it too much to be worth doing.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I like the simplicity and predictability of the head movement the way it is now. I like knowing if my opponent is opening up with hooks I should duck. I like conditioning people to dodge one way and then switch it up knowing if I time it right it's gonna work.

Personally I think the UFC 3 head movement is the best in any combat sports game to date and I think changing anything this close to release would compromise it too much to be worth doing.

These are the benefits you get moving to a discrete system, and it was a very deliberate choice.

I think the gameplay benefits greatly as a result.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I completely disagree.

UFC 3 has the defensive and offensive head movement as described in your post, with the defensive one masquerading as the third.

Unless you guys plan on fixing the input lag it doesnt have nearly the defensive capabilities.

In the beta there was lag when inputting the head movement and lag when trying to grapple out of it. That made head movement pretty bad and all we saw was “duck-uppercut” or the bobbing inside.

Just want to make it clear though I’m not expecting a new head movement system this game but I hope it’s considered for the next one

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Where?

I didn't see any nuanced, reactionary, timing & distance management based head movement in the beta, just preemptive rock-paper-scissors.

From your own post, you describe defensive head movement as:

"These are large swaying motions in just about every direction.

You're making your head as hard to hit as possible.

Preemptive"

That's exactly what the standing head movement in UFC 3 is.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Unless you guys plan on fixing the input lag it doesnt have nearly the defensive capabilities.

In the beta there was lag when inputting the head movement and lag when trying to grapple out of it. That made head movement pretty bad and all we saw was “duck-uppercut” or the bobbing inside.

Just want to make it clear though I’m not expecting a new head movement system this game but I hope it’s considered for the next one

There was no input lag on head movement.

You probably felt the ratings effect kicking in, which makes is take longer for lower rated fighters to get their head off the center line.