You're gonna patch the playerbase away

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  • YourFatZebra
    Rookie
    • Nov 2017
    • 320

    #1

    You're gonna patch the playerbase away

    This is not intended to be hating on the new patch or complaining about not understanding how it works. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I started playing the game again because of this patch. I'm not here to bash it or anything like that, this is a larger point.

    Nearly every player I fight isn't even using head movement, period. Instead opting to hold high block until the opponent throws a strike, relying on combos afterwards.

    Look I get that this isn't unstoppable, but it's just not fun at all. It's boring, it's frustrating, and it kills the entire experience once you realize that you're caught in it. Because there's nothing you can really do to make the guy vulnerable unless he decides to do that. If he's totally content NOT fighting you, that's just how it's gonna be.

    It was never this way prior. You fought one of these dudes every now and then, but it wasn't the way it is now. I can probably count specifically the players I've fought post-patch that actually used head movement. Not even proficiently, at all period. I can't help but also notice the player population has been halved in the past month after it was already dropping. I don't think that the new changes have been helpful to that cause. Any player that wasn't already at an expert level would probably now feel like it's impossible to ever reach that given how things keep switching on them. It's driven some people I know away from the game entirely, because they're afraid to even learn it and have it change on them. Some have argued that the new head movement system increased the skill gap, I would argue that given how little people even use it now online that it did the opposite. It enabled people to be able to hold high block the whole fight and just spam simple combos, not even attempt to sway, and win consistently. I understand the idea that it's easier to be Chris Leben than Anderson Silva, but the disparity should not be so huge that my 9 year old brother has a positive record online from quite literally hammering random buttons. He was like 5 and forty something pre patch and he's sitting at like 17-4 (EDIT: Just checked he's 15-6. Point is he should be 0-15252 if he's just moving through with jab/straights or uppercuts) or something now. Doesn't know a jab from a hook, can't defend a takedown, and yet he's stomping through dudes who's gamertags I actually recognize to be decent at the game PREPATCH. Because they are visibly struggling to move out of the way of his insanity. The times he's lost have been visceral, playing me or the AI or even just his older brother he loses routinely. But the older one doesn't even play online because he's too intimidated by the depth that he sees me dealing with when I do. I only bring them up to just illustrate a personal example of these issues playing out. I don't have statistics to back this up, I could just start recording every person I fight who's doing this or record all of my brother's fights, but the point I'm making isn't so much about that. It's about the playerbase as a whole.

    I know everyone's just gonna bash ME instead of what I said, that seems to be what happens when I say anything now. But given that this forum is populated with hardcore fans, I think it's important for us to remember we aren't the only ones playing the game. If we keep making such drastic changes, especially without even explaining them adequately in the game itself and expecting people to go out of their way to figure it out online, it'll be just us left. I don't know about you guys, but the prospect of the same 50 or so dudes just fighting each other all day every day sounds crappy to me. I should never log into a AAA game in 2018 and see 700 people or less online at the same predictable times as I do on this one.
    Last edited by YourFatZebra; 05-09-2018, 11:23 AM. Reason: Felt the need to expand a bit on my point about my brother so I was clearer about it's relation to the game large scale.
  • rabbitfistssaipailo
    MVP
    • Nov 2017
    • 1625

    #2
    Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

    Hmmm...head movement is risky now...it's high risk ...high reward .

    Bet you if it's quick fight mode ...you'd see a lot more high level guys use it .

    Block is kind of easy to break now ...so I wonder who's holding block up all day .

    This game tends to reward people who have no fear of the consequences of loosing a fight ...or the reality of throwing mad strikes . Put him against someone who reads his patterns quickly and he could get beat .

    I know friends who don't even know what L1 is that are able to move forward like Sub zero and throw strikes . It's up to you to punish them by making them miss .

    Sometimes short term striking stamina is the culprit . Could be wrong .

    Didn't like the patch at first but I like it a bit better now .

    I guess we could see a good grappling patch months from now . As I don't think they can revolutionize grappling in a month .

    But the tools are there to beat almost anyone ...just as the mechanics are there open to abuse just by anyone .



    Sent from my Infinix Zero 4 using Operation Sports mobile app

    Comment

    • YourFatZebra
      Rookie
      • Nov 2017
      • 320

      #3
      Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

      Originally posted by rabbitfistssaipailo
      Bet you if it's quick fight mode ...you'd see a lot more high level guys use it .

      Block is kind of easy to break now ...so I wonder who's holding block up all day .
      [/URL]
      Easy to break, but it's just as easy to get away once it's broken and it usually takes almost all your stamina to break it, so how are you supposed to capitalize? They're walking away, you just used all your stamina to break it. You see the issue there?

      Man. The solution should never be "Don't play the ranked mode". That speaks volumes on its own.

      Comment

      • Counter Punch
        Pro
        • Apr 2018
        • 949

        #4
        Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

        Honestly bro, thank you for posting this.

        Some of the people who have influence over this game want it to be objectively better, even if it means them losing more (MartialMind comes to mind).

        Unfortunately others don’t want things to get fixed or want them to keep going in the same direction because they like are good at the gamr the way it is.

        Head movement is the way it is because now because top players complained about “head movement spam” which I never saw. Same deal with the head damage “bug” (that made the game 1000x better).

        The meta of non-headmovement at the top didn’t just happen that way, it was consciously steered in that direction.

        The game is literally broken right now.
        ...precision beats power and timing beats speed... and realism beats meta.

        Comment

        • TheUFCVeteran
          Pro
          • May 2016
          • 878

          #5
          Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

          Originally posted by Counter Punch
          Honestly bro, thank you for posting this.

          Some of the people who have influence over this game want it to be objectively better, even if it means them losing more (MartialMind comes to mind).

          Unfortunately others don’t want things to get fixed or want them to keep going in the same direction because they like are good at the gamr the way it is.

          Head movement is the way it is because now because top players complained about “head movement spam” which I never saw. Same deal with the head damage “bug” (that made the game 1000x better).

          The meta of non-headmovement at the top didn’t just happen that way, it was consciously steered in that direction.

          The game is literally broken right now.
          I agree with all of your points besides the head movement - it really was abused to the max, and there was NOTHING you could do about it. They would even sway jabs, hit you with a hook that carries hitstun and then follow up with another, unblockble hook that would rock you most of the time. Rinse, repeat.

          Comment

          • iHazCode
            Rookie
            • May 2016
            • 397

            #6
            Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

            +1

            I play A LOT, and never seen the head movement spam or other spam. I'm sure there are some crazy things going on in the top 20 players but a lot of energy seems to go into patching the game for the top 20 it seems.

            Update: seen Veterans post. I'm not saying head movement may not have been a problem for some with offense, but some of the spam videos just seemed to me like people would try it a couple times while experimenting with the new controls. The way it is now isn't bad either though, I do really like the minor sway thing.

            I don't subscribe to the "we are doing everyone else a favor by catching it first" message either...

            Comment

            • YourFatZebra
              Rookie
              • Nov 2017
              • 320

              #7
              Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

              I understand the reasoning behind the change to head movement, and I'm not necessarily saying the change itself was a bad one. I just don't know if the system they went with is the best one.

              While some people were spamming the sways to be unhittable, I used the same mechanic deliberately to try and move to the side like I could in UFC 2. In that game you could flick LS any direction and do a little step, no such thing in this game and that was the only way in my mind I saw to do it. The lunges aren't the same thing, they're too prominent and go too far. I just wanted to step to the side slightly, and in response they messed up the way that counter strikes register off sways. Just seems like an overreaction to me and the change in how players handled that was drastically noticeable, even to others just watching me play. I actually didn't notice the whole "nobody is even moving their head" thing until my friend Zach pointed it out while he was watching. After that, I can't stop noticing how little it's used against me and how often I get wrecked for using it on people who aren't on me.

              Comment

              • johnmangala
                MVP
                • Apr 2016
                • 4525

                #8
                Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                The lunges should definitely improved. Especially the flick ones- they are great for people with high footwork but practically useless otherwise.

                The lunges should also lose the delay when chaining with other techniques so it's as fluid as chaining striking and grappling now.

                But imo the head movement is vastly improved. I have far more success with it than prepatch. This is mainly due to the new slip straight counter which money more often than not. Plus the minor sways are gold.

                Comment

                • TheUFCVeteran
                  Pro
                  • May 2016
                  • 878

                  #9
                  Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                  Originally posted by iHazCode
                  +1

                  I play A LOT, and never seen the head movement spam or other spam. I'm sure there are some crazy things going on in the top 20 players but a lot of energy seems to go into patching the game for the top 20 it seems.

                  Update: seen Veterans post. I'm not saying head movement may not have been a problem for some with offense, but some of the spam videos just seemed to me like people would try it a couple times while experimenting with the new controls. The way it is now isn't bad either though, I do really like the minor sway thing.

                  I don't subscribe to the "we are doing everyone else a favor by catching it first" message either...
                  Trust me on this, there were guys literally leading with sways. Every time, before they strike, without fail, they'd duck. And if it wasn't that, it was a sway to the side before or after every strike. I had a dude absolutely sway spam the ever living HELL out of me on stream, he taunted me a few times too. Karma got him in the end I crumpled him live So that was satisfying at least, but yeah, it got really bad. At least for me anyway.

                  Comment

                  • YourFatZebra
                    Rookie
                    • Nov 2017
                    • 320

                    #10
                    Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                    Originally posted by TheUFCVeteran
                    Trust me on this, there were guys literally leading with sways. Every time, before they strike, without fail, they'd duck. And if it wasn't that, it was a sway to the side before or after every strike. I had a dude absolutely sway spam the ever living HELL out of me on stream, he taunted me a few times too. Karma got him in the end I crumpled him live So that was satisfying at least, but yeah, it got really bad. At least for me anyway.
                    And I get that. I just hate that people doing that had to ruin it for people like me who just wanted a way to do a step to the side. I'm not saying that the new head movement is trash. But I do think it's very telling how rarely it's used now online, at least in my experience.

                    I think I should have emphasized even harder the "not explaining anything in the game" part of this. Imagine you aren't aware of OS, don't use Reddit, and you pop onto UFC one day and it's suddenly changed. That happened to my friend Derek who doesn't have Twitter and doesn't know of this forum. That has to be extremely jarring and confusing when you feel like you know how to play a game one day, and the next day none of that works and there's no explanation. If the system is going to be altered that drastically, something should at least be said about it in game so no one ends up like he did, confused enough to uninstall the game because it doesn't feel right anymore. I think that could end up snowballing, and may already have when you look at the numbers of players online and how it's dropped.

                    I saw someone post something titled something along the lines of "Game is being patched to the point of only the elite being able to play" but he was referring to specific characters. I would take that same statement but apply it to the actual players of the game. Currently, it's such a daunting idea to try and drop into UFC 3 as a new player that I'd be shocked if anyone is doing it without being frustrated. The more things you change and the more complex the game becomes, the less likely someone who's never played it at all will try it or buy it. I'm an MMA hardcore, I have 1000+ hours in UFC 2, but even I wouldn't want every single person I match against to be me.

                    Then you have a different problem that kind of goes hand in hand with that one. The more complex you make the game mechanics, the less people will want to learn them and the more they will start to look for exploits and other ways to win that don't require learning those complex systems. I.E. Combo spam, sway spam before this, all these different things you see pop up that are bull**** fight tactics. All of that is going to get worse the more that the game mechanics are altered.

                    Say you're someone who's not very good at the game, but you're an MMA fan and you want to be better. You try to play realistically, you use fighters to their style, but you're still not very successful for whatever reason. Your friend, who let's just say isn't even an MMA fan, buys the game and decides to play extremely unrealistically. Abuses every exploit he can find and picks the best characters in every division. He ends up with such a demonstrably better record than you that you start to question what you're even doing. "Why don't I just pick McGregor and spam exploits?"

                    Thus the cycle continues. That's why I'm always so vocal about that kind of thing, because it's literally cancerous. It happens to you enough, you become desensitized to it and start doing it to other people, then they go through that same ****, so on and so forth. Dividing the player base almost in half between people that actually want to play the game and those who just want to win, even if it means ruining it for everyone else.

                    Also, to what JohnMangala said about head movement: I had dookied all over the minor sways when they first came out and I've 180'd on that entirely. I just didn't understand them, and I can admit that. To me, the input on the controller was just wonky and it's still not fantastic. I understand it well enough to do it correctly most of the time, but I still mess up on occasion. When I pull it off right though, I've gotten some dope counter shots from them.
                    Last edited by YourFatZebra; 05-09-2018, 01:58 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Counter Punch
                      Pro
                      • Apr 2018
                      • 949

                      #11
                      Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                      Originally posted by TheUFCVeteran
                      I agree with all of your points besides the head movement - it really was abused to the max, and there was NOTHING you could do about it. They would even sway jabs, hit you with a hook that carries hitstun and then follow up with another, unblockble hook that would rock you most of the time. Rinse, repeat.
                      I would back lunge and head kick KO the **** out of them. Or feint them into exposing themselves and blast them with a counter.

                      I don’t see an issue with people who want to initiate striking with head movement. It is a legitimate style. It is balanced in real life by punches and strikes in general doing tremendous damage, especially if they land on your chin. Does a shot hitting you difectly on the button do more damage in this game? It should if it doesn’t.

                      They could balance out the damage increase by reducing damage if your moving away from a strike (unless it clips you clean on the jaw). I mean if the physics engine is so amazing I was really hoping this level to the striking to be implemented at some point.


                      Regardless of all that, more realism in general would actually make balancing and improving the game easier becausse you literaly have a tremendous amount of data (MMA Fights) to guide you and reference along the way. Its just frustrating to observe.

                      How there are people who have influence on the game who openly advocate AGAINST striving for realism because they say it would be less fun is pretty concerning.

                      I think it would be fun. People who don’t think a game that played like you were in an actual MMA fight would be fun being in such a position of influence explains why the game keeps taking 3 steps forward and 5 steps back.
                      Last edited by Counter Punch; 05-09-2018, 02:04 AM.
                      ...precision beats power and timing beats speed... and realism beats meta.

                      Comment

                      • YourFatZebra
                        Rookie
                        • Nov 2017
                        • 320

                        #12
                        Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                        Originally posted by Counter Punch
                        I would back lunge and head kick KO the **** out of them. Or feint them into exposing themselves and blast them with a counter.

                        I don’t see an issue who want to initiate striking with head movement. It is a legitimate style. It is balanced in real life by punches and strikes in general doing tremendous damage, especially if they land on your chin. Does a shot hitting you difectly on the button do more damage in this game? It should if it doesn’t.

                        They could balance out the damage increase by reducing damage if your moving away from a strike (unless it clips you clean on the jaw). I mean if the physics engine is so amazing I was really hoping this level to the striking to be implemented at some point.


                        Regardless of all that, more realism in general would actually make balancing and improving the game easier becausse you literaly have a tremendous amount of data (MMA Fights) to guide you and reference along the way. Its just frustrating to observe.

                        How there are people who have influence on the game who openly advocate AGAINST striving for realism because they say it would be less fun is pretty concerning.
                        Don't quote me on this, I don't have fight pass to go make sure, but I could have swore that during Zabit's last fight his opponent's corner told him to literally do that. If it wasn't that fight, it was one of the past couple cards.

                        I only know this because one guy went out of his way to harass me about doing that exact thing before the new patch. I say harass because he not only messaged me on my account, my alternate account, he messaged two of my friends as well. Asserting that, because I was beginning engagements by moving my head I was "turning everything into a guessing game and making yourself untouchable". While we were watching the fights, the corner said that to whoever and one of my homies turned around to look at me like "Oh, move your head BEFORE you strike eh? Bet that one dude ain't gonna like that."

                        Comment

                        • Counter Punch
                          Pro
                          • Apr 2018
                          • 949

                          #13
                          Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                          Originally posted by YourFatZebra

                          I saw someone post something titled something along the lines of "Game is being patched to the point of only the elite being able to play" but he was referring to specific characters. I would take that same statement but apply it to the actual players of the game. Currently, it's such a daunting idea to try and drop into UFC 3 as a new player that I'd be shocked if anyone is doing it without being frustrated. The more things you change and the more complex the game becomes, the less likely someone who's never played it at all will try it or buy it. I'm an MMA hardcore, I have 1000+ hours in UFC 2, but even I wouldn't want every single person I match against to be me.

                          Then you have a different problem that kind of goes hand in hand with that one. The more complex you make the game mechanics, the less people will want to learn them and the more they will start to look for exploits and other ways to win that don't require learning those complex systems. I.E. Combo spam, sway spam before this, all these different things you see pop up that are bull**** fight tactics. All of that is going to get worse the more that the game mechanics are altered.

                          Say you're someone who's not very good at the game, but you're an MMA fan and you want to be better. You try to play realistically, you use fighters to their style, but you're still not very successful for whatever reason. Your friend, who let's just say isn't even an MMA fan, buys the game and decides to play extremely unrealistically. Abuses every exploit he can find and picks the best characters in every division. He ends up with such a demonstrably better record than you that you start to question what you're even doing. "Why don't I just pick McGregor and spam exploits?"

                          Thus the cycle continues. That's why I'm always so vocal about that kind of thing, because it's literally cancerous. It happens to you enough, you become desensitized to it and start doing it to other people, then they go through that same ****, so on and so forth. Dividing the player base almost in half between people that actually want to play the game and those who just want to win, even if it means ruining it for everyone else.
                          I’m sorry but this is such a dated understanding of what gaming is. The success of Madden, NBA 2k, The Show, etc all fly in the face of what you’re saying.

                          Just put a “simple” control scheme in all offline modes. Problem solved.
                          ...precision beats power and timing beats speed... and realism beats meta.

                          Comment

                          • ryangil23
                            Rookie
                            • May 2016
                            • 418

                            #14
                            Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                            Basically the game has just become high block and the 1-2. Gets boring quick.

                            Comment

                            • YourFatZebra
                              Rookie
                              • Nov 2017
                              • 320

                              #15
                              Re: You're gonna patch the playerbase away

                              Originally posted by Counter Punch
                              I’m sorry but this is such a dated understanding of what gaming is. The success of Madden, NBA 2k, The Show, etc all fly in the face of what you’re saying.

                              Just put a “simple” control scheme in all offline modes. Problem solved.
                              We can agree to disagree then. I stand by my opinion because I know people personally who are either going through it now or have gone through that same line of thinking. I've even played against spammers online and asked them why they play that way, a handful said basically what I said. Someone did it to them enough that they just got sick of it and started doing it to others.

                              Also none of those games you just mentioned are as complicated as EA UFC 3. Not even close. Yes there are intricate mechanics you can use to pull of more complex things in all of those games, but for the most part if you know how to move, pass, shoot, etc. you can play fairly well. The route to victory isn't blocked off by all these deeper systems and mechanics like it is in EA UFC 3. The submission game, the ground grappling, the clinch, the head movement, lunges, blocking, combos, stationary strikes, stamina... There are so many things to manage to even be moderately good at this game, much less expert level. I have friends who are proficient gamers across the board who can't make it out of the WFA in career because of how many different things you have to manage at once in this game. And it's only gotten deeper with every iteration, meaning that if you've never played ANY of them, not a fight night, not a combat sports game period, it would take an astronomic amount of time to be competitive.

                              I've never picked up an MLB, NFL, or NBA game with zero idea of what to do with the controls, but I've watched full grown adults have that struggle with EA UFC. Football, Basketball, and Baseball have a much clearer path to victory. There are a certain number of points regularly scored for this specific thing. It's not that way in MMA AT ALL. The same person can land the same kind of strike and it be scored differently based on so many other factors. Rounds won with no takedowns, rounds lost with three takedowns. It's just so much more to manage, and adding a simple control scheme OFFLINE does very little to remedy that problem once you end up online and the scheme switches.

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