RPO's

[canes21]

I know they have been brought up before and this isn't a thread asking why they aren't in the game. I am familiar with the devs saying the way the blocking ai and defensive ai are built right now that RPO's are impossible to make, but something about this has been irking me.



I forget how many years ago it was NCAA first introduced the ability to hold A or X on play action passes and that would result in handing the ball off and turning the play into a running play. You could do this out of all formations. I essentially was running RPO's without even knowing it in my dynasty because I ran a lot of spread looks with lots of PA plays where I would hand it off when I had the numbers. This feature found its way to Madden the following year I believe.


I'm curious as to whether or not it is feasible for EA to not look into that already created feature to assist with getting RPO's into the game. You literally can run if you want with the method I was using in my dynasty. Could the AI not get a script to read the numbers in the box and then make a decision based off of that and the QB's awareness on whether or not to go through with handing it off or essentially running a play fake and passing it?


This just seems so simple so I have to be missing something I presume.

[roadman]

Re: RPO's

Not sure if this is the right answer, but there is so much legacy coding already in the game and what I recall hearing this past summer is that old technology doesn't work well with new technology.

So, what may have been in NCAA several years ago, may not work well with frostbite and new technology.

That is my best educated guess.

[canes21]

Re: RPO's

I just tested to see if that feature was still in the game and sadly it is not. I wonder what year it was removed? You literally were able to run RPO's with it in the game. I don't remember it being overpowered or out of balance either as it was a staple of my offense in NCAA 14.

[bk1ross]

Re: RPO's

Who do i get in touch with terms of developers to show them formations Madden needs to add. Because the L.A. Rams playbook is not true to life....do to them running "11" personnel...the default playbook has I-Form, Weak, and Strong formations in which they dont run at all especially since they dont have a fullback on the roster....also the singleback formations have too many sets that have 2 TE sets....Rams rarely have 2 tight ends on the field at the same time. I have still photos of formations they use in singleback that are not in the game and the tight alignments by the wideouts. I hope and wish they would put this in the game.

[Darth Aegis]

Re: RPO's

Everything seems easy until you actaully do it lol. For every Offensive play in the game there has to be a defensive counter. Things like this take time if they want to do it correctly, months even yrs, if they even can with the current code. People need to realize there not making the game for just the sim gamer. Always hope for Madden 2020 but the playbooks havent really changed in over a decade so I'm doubtful. The sim guy left the building a yr ago, so theres that.

[Hooe]

Re: RPO's

I just tested to see if that feature was still in the game and sadly it is not. I wonder what year it was removed? You literally were able to run RPO's with it in the game. I don't remember it being overpowered or out of balance either as it was a staple of my offense in NCAA 14.

That's not a proper run-pass option, the concept has a very specific meaning in the NFL.

The run-pass option as it exists in the NFL has the offensive linemen on the front side of the play run blocking - commonly for an outside zone run / toss / some other run where blockers move laterally, given that OLs in the NFL may not travel further than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage on a passing play. The offensive linemen on the backside of the play in turn are pass blocking for a quick pass. A receiver on the backside of the play (the pass blocking side) often runs a quick route such as a slant or slot bubble screen. The quarterback reads the movement by the linebacker / nickel back on the backside of the play; if he crashes the run then he pulls the ball and throws the slant, else he hands the ball off.

Aborting the pass part of a shotgun playaction pass is not a run-pass option. The blocking assignments are different for playaction passes, and a quarterback typically does not have second and third passing progressions in an RPO (though that is changing). He certainly doesn't have the ability to wait for long-developing pass routes or concepts, given that the majority of his linemen are run blocking. Allowing the user to treat any shotgun playaction pass as a run-pass option is not realistic whatsoever.

I speculate that the behavior you describe was A) deemed an exploit in competitive play and removed on that account; B) removed when all handoffs were rebuilt a couple years ago (this happened within the past three years but I don't remember which specific Madden game did it); C) deemed an unrealistic implementation of the run-pass option concept and removed; or D) some combination of the above.

[canes21]

Re: RPO's

I know what an RPO is. The point of the thread was a mechanic that allowed the user to nearly replicate RPO's was already there in the past.

[Hooe]

Re: RPO's

I know what an RPO is. The point of the thread was a mechanic that allowed the user to nearly replicate RPO's was already there in the past.

I think my explanation illustrates why that the old mechanic you describe did not replicate or nearly replicate the modern run-pass option concept. It mimicked the RPO by providing an option to give the ball to the running back out of a called shotgun playaction pass play, sure, but it certainly did not provide this option in any realistic capacity. I went to the lengths I did explaining RPOs to make that point as clearly as possible.

If you truly care about "sim" in Madden, then you must agree that shoehorning that old mechanic back into the game is not a feasible stop-gap to the issue of the lack of RPOs in Madden for the reasons I provided. I want RPOs in the game too - the offensive concepts in the game need a refresh for the rapid advancements NFL offenses have made in the past three years, and they were popularized in the NFL by one of my favorite team's rivals - but I also want those new concepts built into the game correctly.

[stinkubus]

Re: RPO's

Even if there were no legacy issues precluding the inclusion of RPOs the defensive AI isn't anywhere near good enough for me to believe these plays wouldn't be OP. There are plain old bubble screens that are an absolute nightmare to defend if they are schemed around, and if the offense had the option to hand off in addition to throwing the screen there would be no possibility of stopping them.

[canes21]

Re: RPO's

Even if there were no legacy issues precluding the inclusion of RPOs the defensive AI isn't anywhere near good enough for me to believe these plays wouldn't be OP. There are plain old bubble screens that are an absolute nightmare to defend if they are schemed around, and if the offense had the option to hand off in addition to throwing the screen there would be no possibility of stopping them.

This makes me wonder about something else with regards to the defensive AI. Obviously all of us want an organic read and react system where the players are given the logic of real players and react as such. LB's see a QB's back turn they stay up watching for a run. They see their key in the guard take off like a run play they commit to the run. They see a QB drop back like a pass and they backpedal into their zones. Much more at every position.


That would be great and amazing, but it is unlikely EA is close to getting anything truly organic like that in the game anytime soon. I'd love for it, it's what I want from the defensive AI. I'd love to be able to fine tune those decisions schematically sort of like with Custom Tactics in Fifa. I'd love to scout an opponent and as a result tell my safeties if they see motion play the boundary more if the opponent's offense has that tendency. I'd love to have my safeties switch assignments and creep to the line if the personnel bunched a certain way that tipped off the potential play.


We don't have that, though. What I wonder about is scripting the defense. I know that is sacrilegious to say around here and I know why. I get it. I am not really one for scripting, but the 2k football games scripted their defenses in a lot of ways that gave off that impression that the gameplay was more dynamic than it was. The defense knew what routes you were running on a given play and had the DB play scripted off of that. They just did it in such a way that it was hard to tell.


With knowing that I do think if EA did it well that they could get away with scripting the defense a little more to give off an organic feel. Scripting the defense to play certain ways on bubble screens or even RPO's would be a way to counter them becoming OP while allowing there to be some more realistic variety in the way they play.


Obviously we do not want everything to be scripted perfectly, but I think with the way the AI is right now we'd be better off going with some scripted help that sets things up in a more believable manner than what we have now. There could and probably is more scripting going on than I realize with the defense, but as much as many here will hate to hear it, scripting is a way to mask the AI deficiencies if it is done right.

[stinkubus]

Re: RPO's

Of course 2K scripted outcomes. What sort of AI do you suppose would actually be able to run on the consoles available at the time? The sort of "organic" AI you are envisioning isn't possible because current consoles aren't powerful enough to run it and the people capable of programming something that could play a game as complicated as Madden that well don't work for EA; they work at Universities, research labs, and companies like Deep Mind.

That's not to say that the current AI couldn't be improved, but one important point that these discussions always miss (IMO) is the very real possibility that the weak AI is a marketing decision. For as long as I can remember the game has been beatable, up to All-Pro (default), by extremely casual players. Anyone who knows what they are doing will obvious crush the AI without the handicaps of sliders or house rules.

Since the above has been true for 30 years now I have believe that it's deliberate.

[canes21]

Re: RPO's

I don't think the AI I'm envisioning is as deep as you're thinking. They could overhaul the defensive AI theoretically and script reactions based off of what the offense does plus a combination of the tendencies of the opponent and their ratings.



If done properly it would lead to a more believable looking play where the defenders are following proper technique, but their AI isnt as truly organic as you might think. I'm sure there is a level of scripting already there as seen with how PA passes can make the defense behave and option plays, but honestly, a ton of scripting will make many here screech, but I'm a believer that with current tech it would be the best way to make the AI behave more organic and believable.

[Haze88]

Re: RPO's

I just tested to see if that feature was still in the game and sadly it is not. I wonder what year it was removed? You literally were able to run RPO's with it in the game. I don't remember it being overpowered or out of balance either as it was a staple of my offense in NCAA 14.

They were. I know for a fact one of the PA Jet Sweeps was glitched where the defense would still cover the pass routes letting the sweep guy run free for like 15 yards without anyone even paying attention. And CM Hooe does have it right. NCAA 14 had it backwards. RPOs fundamentally are just a run play with a pass route attached, NCAA had full blown pass plays with the option of a handoff

[canes21]

Re: RPO's

They were. I know for a fact one of the PA Jet Sweeps was glitched where the defense would still cover the pass routes letting the sweep guy run free for like 15 yards without anyone even paying attention. And CM Hooe does have it right. NCAA 14 had it backwards. RPOs fundamentally are just a run play with a pass route attached, NCAA had full blown pass plays with the option of a handoff

I never ran the sweep play so that would explain why I never saw the OP-ness of them. I practically ran it exclusively from basic PA's in the gun.


I also think some are missing the point. I was not saying that those plays were exactly like RPO's. I know RPO's have 1 or 2 routes attached to them and are blocked different than the game would block them. I was merely pointing out that you could run your own variants of RPOs in the past. I also did not realize they removed the feature.

[kennylc321]

Re: RPO's

First... it would be great to see these added to the game.

But this is how I see it. I believe that any concept that is added, there should be a mechanism to defend against it. RPOs are not unstoppable (well... they were for my Eagles in last year's post season) as we have seen this year. So if EA figures out how to add it, they need to figure out how to defend against it so it does not become cheese.

So between figuring out how to add it and how to defend against it, knowing EA, that is a 3-year process.