Stamina drain in run back

[Tyeanisbae]

There is a really big stamina drain on the run back which shouldn't be a thing. This stamina drain is really big on the long term stamina which really sucks.

What i mean by "the run back" is holding R2 and R1 at the same time to jog backwards

As somebody who fights with Lyoto Machida it's really annoying because this is something he used a lot in his fights.

[Good Grappler]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

There is a really big stamina drain on the run back which shouldn't be a thing. This stamina drain is really big on the long term stamina which really sucks.

What i mean by "the run back" is holding R2 and R1 at the same time to jog backwards

As somebody who fights with Lyoto Machida it's really annoying because this is something he used a lot in his fights.

I honestly think the stamina drain is fine, assuming it’s used sparingly to get out of trouble. 3-4x per round won’t really hurt your stamina.

The problem is the slow base movement of guys like Stephen Thompson, or Machida. You shouldn’t have to use the r1/r2 mechanic to create space with these guys. Their base movement speed should be way faster, as fast as the current r1/r2 mechanic. And the r1/r2 mechanic should result in a literal running away - like turning your back and sprinting. Like if your back’s to the cage and you know the haymakers are coming, you can just sprint the **** out of there. Gus does it a lot, Overeem does it.

The game forces you to stand square in front of your opponent too much. If I’m 10 seconds away from winning a decision, but my opponent is going kamikaze on me, I should be able to nope my way to the other side of the cage, or hell even lay on my back and throw up kicks. Anything but standing square in front of my opponent, moving slow as a turtle as they tee off. But that’s another discussion.

[GamingPractitioner]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

There is a really big stamina drain on the run back which shouldn't be a thing. This stamina drain is really big on the long term stamina which really sucks.

What i mean by "the run back" is holding R2 and R1 at the same time to jog backwards

As somebody who fights with Lyoto Machida it's really annoying because this is something he used a lot in his fights.

The run back you're referring to can be know as a frame or long guard. It can be costly in terms of stamina but you have to know how and when to use it.
Ex:Only time I really use it is when someone is rushing foward with hooks but not everytime. Just sometime quickly throwing that frame out there can be best so you don't drain stamina from holding it can still create a bit of distance. <div style="width:100%;height:0;padding-bottom:56%;position:relative;"><iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/lplmMmJtewLhUCk0sI" width="100%" height="100%" style="position:absolute" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe></div><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/lplmMmJtewLhUCk0sI">via GIPHY</a></p>

[Haz_____]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

I do this in sparring irl alllll the time. It takes no energy at all.

[Tyeanisbae]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

I do this in sparring irl alllll the time. It takes no energy at all.

Thats the thing that bothers me, fighters like Machida use this all the time. But with this taking so much long term stamina I cant fight like he would. Im forced to use head movement and hold block instead of simply managing my distance.

It would be cool if the next game would give us more fighter pros and cons instead of perks a lot like the Orcs in Shadow of Mordor had strengths and weaknesses. So fighters like Machida have a perk where the run back costs less stamina. But I guess the whole perk thing isfor a whole different thread.

[KingCorgzz]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

I believe if you hold it for too long and reach the cage then it takes a bigger stamina drain. Versus if you just do it shortly.

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

There is a really big stamina drain on the run back which shouldn't be a thing. This stamina drain is really big on the long term stamina which really sucks.

What i mean by "the run back" is holding R2 and R1 at the same time to jog backwards

As somebody who fights with Lyoto Machida it's really annoying because this is something he used a lot in his fights.

I must be stupid ...for the past couple of months I've been holding l1 l2 wondering if it was removed from the game . Damn .

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[Tyeanisbae]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

I just found out through Martial Minds latest video that if your opponent decides to take you down while doing the run back its an undeniable takedown. So this makes it **** to use against people who pressure you with Cormier...

[RetractedMonkey]

Stamina drain in run back

This maneuver should take no stamina at all in my opinion. There is no practical difference between moving backwards and moving backwards with your hand up.

Add a stamina drain if your opponent throws punches at you to simulate the drain of blocking and dodging while moving back. There. I just solved it. Someone should start paying me.

At extra vulnerability for leg kicks and takedowns (apparently this one is already in) and there is complete balance with this mechanic with no ridiculous stamina drain. Hitting the cage shouldn’t take half your stamina either.

Punches blocked by the move should give the guy retreating stamina drain scaled to the power of a punch, meaning a jab does almost no drain, but a lead overhand does more. A read overhand should be a hard counter as long as it’s in range. The punches should do decent short term drain, but very negligible long term as that defeats the purpose of getting rid of the stamina drain in the first place.

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[Tyeanisbae]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

This maneuver should take no stamina at all in my opinion. There is no practical difference between moving backwards and moving backwards with your hand up.

Add a stamina drain if your opponent throws punches at you to simulate the drain of blocking and dodging while moving back. There. I just solved it. Someone should start paying me.

At extra vulnerability for leg kicks and takedowns (apparently this one is already in) and there is complete balance with this mechanic with no ridiculous stamina drain. Hitting the cage shouldn’t take half your stamina either.

Punches blocked by the move should give the guy retreating stamina drain scaled to the power of a punch, meaning a jab does almost no drain, but a lead overhand does more. A read overhand should be a hard counter as long as it’s in range. The punches should do decent short term drain, but very negligible long term as that defeats the purpose of getting rid of the stamina drain in the first place.

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I think the stamina drain should be related to the fighters footwork stat honestly or certain fighters have perks regarding stamina drain for certain strikes/transitions/movement

[aholbert32]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

The stamina drain is solely due to comp players being worried that the addition of the back run will make people run the entire fight. It’s really the only reason it exists. Because of that I doubt it will ever be removed entirely and it’s already been reduced.


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[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

The stamina drain is solely due to comp players being worried that the addition of the back run will make people run the entire fight. It’s really the only reason it exists. Because of that I doubt it will ever be removed entirely and it’s already been reduced.


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That is absolutely why it exists, but there have been solutions posted to fix this and make the move more realistic.

Having the drain tied to being struck while in the movement eliminates the ridiculous overcompensation made to discourage frequent use. I don't use this skill because my dodging is mainly preemptive. Therefore, I end up losing a full stamina percentage point every time I put my arm up and block nothing. No one can tell me that isn't poor design.

Make the move vulnerable to certain techniques. Leg kicks, rear overhands, and takedowns.

That's three moves that are commonly used in a fight anyway. It would take nothing at all to quickly lay on an overhand by baiting the arm with feints.

I think it's more likely that it would be used more often on the lower end of the skill spectrum because those players don't know how to counter anything. Then again, they don't even know it exists.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

The amount of drain it does was reduced substantially from when the mechanic was first introduced. There is a big stamina penalty for using this mechanic and making contact with the cage (IE running until there's nowhere else to run), but if you use it sparingly and don't hit the cage, the drain is quite reasonable.

We had floated the idea of no drain at all, but GPD didn't like the idea, because he rightly saw how amazing the mechanic itself is - if there were no drawbacks, people really would use it nonstop.

The extra drain isn't applied due to the fighter raising his hand for the frame, it's due to the substantial speed increase you get. The logic is that the fighter is literally moving backward faster, which takes more energy than moving backward with the normal speed.

The post-arm retreat almost immediately creates a great deal of space, making many attacks that would track whiff, and greatly mitigating the risk of block-break combos actually penetrating.

The way GamingPractitioner demo'd the mechanic is how I'd say it's supposed to work in the intended meta. Use it in short bursts to get out of mindless pressure, and then either use another less costly movement / evasion technique, or counter.

In my opinion, the retreating post-arm should not be evaluated in isolation.

Its utility should be evaluated with other anti-pressure tweaks in mind:

-Combo's exceeding 2 strikes lose forward momentum
-Head movement that fails to slip strikes loses all stopping power on the counter attempt
-A successful lunge of a combo results in a cease of combo tracking
-After a successful slip, players can block on the way back up
-Teeps, side kicks, and spinning body kicks now result in push-back even when blocked.
-R2+Square+X shove was added.
-Double-leg takedowns get increased GA vs forward moving opponents.

Point being, it's not like GPD heard people complaining about pressure and said "Here, take the post-arm retreat, good luck." He implemented a suite of changes over several patches to reduce the effectiveness of mindless pressure. This thread is focusing on one on the added anti-pressure mechanics and complaining about stamina drain, but the post-arm itself wasn't the only option added to reduce the effect of pressure. Please keep that in mind.

[1212headkick]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

The amount of drain it does was reduced substantially from when the mechanic was first introduced. There is a big stamina penalty for using this mechanic and making contact with the cage (IE running until there's nowhere else to run), but if you use it sparingly and don't hit the cage, the drain is quite reasonable.

We had floated the idea of no drain at all, but GPD didn't like the idea, because he rightly saw how amazing the mechanic itself is - if there were no drawbacks, people really would use it nonstop.

The extra drain isn't applied due to the fighter raising his hand for the frame, it's due to the substantial speed increase you get. The logic is that the fighter is literally moving backward faster, which takes more energy than moving backward with the normal speed.

The post-arm retreat almost immediately creates a great deal of space, making many attacks that would track whiff, and greatly mitigating the risk of block-break combos actually penetrating.

The way GamingPractitioner demo'd the mechanic is how I'd say it's supposed to work in the intended meta. Use it in short bursts to get out of mindless pressure, and then either use another less costly movement / evasion technique, or counter.

In my opinion, the retreating post-arm should not be evaluated in isolation.

Its utility should be evaluated with other anti-pressure tweaks in mind:

-Combo's exceeding 2 strikes lose forward momentum
-Head movement that fails to slip strikes loses all stopping power on the counter attempt
-A successful lunge of a combo results in a cease of combo tracking
-After a successful slip, players can block on the way back up
-Teeps, side kicks, and spinning body kicks now result in push-back even when blocked.
-R2+Square+X shove was added.
-Double-leg takedowns get increased GA vs forward moving opponents.

Point being, it's not like GPD heard people complaining about pressure and said "Here, take the post-arm retreat, good luck." He implemented a suite of changes over several patches to reduce the effectiveness of mindless pressure. This thread is focusing on one on the added anti-pressure mechanics and complaining about stamina drain, but the post-arm itself wasn't the only option added to reduce the effect of pressure. Please keep that in mind.

I feel like parries being removed resulted in a **** show. They were broken because of the multiplier. Blocking and slipping are not the only means of defense. The more mechanics are not based on realism. The worse it becomes. I dont want a pseudorealistic game where ideas come from people who never trained. We need parries shoulder rolls and not to be forced to be locked at a horizontal angle. The game only gives you option to move straight back you cant move in a circle. Only straight lines. You can lung in a circle but not move in a circle. Huge oversight. No good fighter expends tons of energy from moving back and sticking their arm out. None. The shots should all land on the extended hand if theyre aimed at the head. Fighters can just beat on the block and have full stamina. Why does it take 5 plus rocks to finish an opponent. This is a game based on mma and not an mma game

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Stamina drain in run back

The amount of drain it does was reduced substantially from when the mechanic was first introduced. There is a big stamina penalty for using this mechanic and making contact with the cage (IE running until there's nowhere else to run), but if you use it sparingly and don't hit the cage, the drain is quite reasonable.

We had floated the idea of no drain at all, but GPD didn't like the idea, because he rightly saw how amazing the mechanic itself is - if there were no drawbacks, people really would use it nonstop.

The extra drain isn't applied due to the fighter raising his hand for the frame, it's due to the substantial speed increase you get. The logic is that the fighter is literally moving backward faster, which takes more energy than moving backward with the normal speed.

The post-arm retreat almost immediately creates a great deal of space, making many attacks that would track whiff, and greatly mitigating the risk of block-break combos actually penetrating.

The way GamingPractitioner demo'd the mechanic is how I'd say it's supposed to work in the intended meta. Use it in short bursts to get out of mindless pressure, and then either use another less costly movement / evasion technique, or counter.

In my opinion, the retreating post-arm should not be evaluated in isolation.

Its utility should be evaluated with other anti-pressure tweaks in mind:

-Combo's exceeding 2 strikes lose forward momentum
-Head movement that fails to slip strikes loses all stopping power on the counter attempt
-A successful lunge of a combo results in a cease of combo tracking
-After a successful slip, players can block on the way back up
-Teeps, side kicks, and spinning body kicks now result in push-back even when blocked.
-R2+Square+X shove was added.
-Double-leg takedowns get increased GA vs forward moving opponents.

Point being, it's not like GPD heard people complaining about pressure and said "Here, take the post-arm retreat, good luck." He implemented a suite of changes over several patches to reduce the effectiveness of mindless pressure. This thread is focusing on one on the added anti-pressure mechanics and complaining about stamina drain, but the post-arm itself wasn't the only option added to reduce the effect of pressure. Please keep that in mind.

You can't tell me the stamina drain is reasonable from any realistic standpoint. Moving back faster being the reason to lose close to a full point of long term stamina does not put me any more at ease than thinking it was raising the arm. Hitting the cage might even take less energy in real life because the cage holds some of your weight. Either way, I find it kind of ridiculous to argue this point as it should be clear to anyone that this doesn't cause significant energy expenditure. Again, from a realism perspective.

There are tons of ways to escape from pressure, but none are as cool as the stiff-arm retreat. You can't counter off the retreat like all of the other methods either, another thing that makes it far from the meta-breaking feature the devs may be scared of.

Again, I understand why it is the way it is right now, but no one (be it dev, gamechanger, or otherwise) has told me why getting rid of the long term drain and making it more vulnerable to its' own hard counter measures wouldn't work as an alternative. And having blocked strikes do stamina drain STILL keeps a burden on the user as long as they are hit with something. Preventing the asinine loss of stamina for a half-second use of the move.

I'm the first one to admit when realism has to be sacrificed, but this ain't one of them. My goal is making it as realistic as possible and if there is a way to make it that way and not sacrifice gameplay, why not do it?

Jon Jones uses this retreat almost every time he gets into an exchange he doesn't feel comfortable in. It's not something that has to be used in bursts. It is still clearly inferior to head movement and lunges damage-wise and already susceptible to takedowns. To me, this is the exact same scenario as when the devs were scared to put a stamina drain on head movement, except reversed.