Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

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  • countryboy
    Growing pains
    • Sep 2003
    • 52704

    #1

    Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

    Ok..

    I've debated for a few days about whether to start this discussion or not, as I thought maybe it was just me and getting acquainted to the new pitching and hitting changes. But after 60 or so games, I'm wanting to see what others thought of my "issue".

    Before I start, I'm playing on Default Legend with Meter Pitching and Zone hitting. I play every single pitch of every single game. This is also with a carryover franchise, so I'm not using MLB '19's default/updated rosters.

    Now my "issue".

    Does anyone else feel like that contact is too easy, thus allowing for fewer swings and misses, thus leading to fewer strikeouts? And when I say contact, I'm not necessarily talking about putting a ball in play, but also foul tipping a ball by just getting enough bat on the ball to keep an at-bat alive.

    I understand that is very subjective and difficult to state with any type of certainty, aside from opinion, that an issue may or may not exist. And this isn't coming from a place where I feel cheated, or feel that I should dominate, or feel that I'm definitely better than the results. This comes from a place of wondering, based on my experience this year vs last year using the same pitchers and the same settings. And this issue goes for both myself and the AI.

    For instance..I have Jack Flaherty who has a K/9 rating of 97. This rating, unless I am completely mistaken, influences the ability of the hitter to get the bat on the ball, depending obviously on other factors like, but not limited to, how "perfect" my pitch (meter feedback), the hitter's contact rating and vision rating.

    I am not suggesting that Flaherty should be averaging double digit strikeouts each game. I'm not suggesting that he should average a set number of strikeouts per game based on this rating, but I feel as though he would be averaging more if not for the "issue" of too easy to make contact on good/great pitches. Last year, Flaherty averaged about 8 strikeouts per game when I view the stats. This year in 5 starts, he's averaging just under 2 (1.8). Now granted it could be a fluke for one player, but I'm seeing this across the board with my staff and the CPU staff as well. Even against great pitcher's from the CPU, I'm able to fight off enough good/great pitches in order to keep an at-bat alive to get a mistake pitch that I can handle better and put into play. And this is with weak hitters, including pitchers.

    It seems, in my experience that a vast majority (easily 90% in my experience) of strikeouts happen because the hitter takes strike 3. Rarely do they swing and miss for a strikeout. Rarely do they swing and miss at all.

    My pitching staff which finished in the Top 3 last year in strikeouts, is in last place in total team strikeouts as a staff, 50+ strikeouts behind the 29th place team. Offensively, we are have struckout the least in the majors, 25+ ahead of the 2nd place team. Now offensively, human error factors in to elevate the strikeout numbers by a couple per game I would guess.

    I know that I can try to "fix" this "issue" with sliders, but I don't mess with sliders. I refuse..LOL. I know a suggestion would be to try HOF pitching, but I don't feel that would fix the issue, because I'm able to pitch well on LEGEND and none of my other pitching stats are "out of whack".

    Anyways, I'm rambling (and need to get back to work), so I'll stop there and see what the community says.
    I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

    I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


    Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals
  • Caulfield
    Hall Of Fame
    • Apr 2011
    • 10986

    #2
    Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

    yep, I bumped the CPU timing slider to 7 . I wish there were a 6.5 on the scale , I think that would be perfect for me
    Last edited by Caulfield; 04-24-2019, 03:57 AM.
    OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

    A Work in Progress

    Comment

    • TheWarmWind
      MVP
      • Apr 2015
      • 2620

      #3
      Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

      Yes, it's not just you. Currently have taken a hammer to both the timing and the foul frequency settings for both human and cpu.

      Not sure how you can solve this issue without sliders though. Might want to get over that, especially if you're an offline only player. The default sliders are balanced for online play, where things like lag are a factor.

      Sent from my Pixel 3 using Operation Sports mobile app

      Comment

      • countryboy
        Growing pains
        • Sep 2003
        • 52704

        #4
        Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

        I'm not a fan of adjusting sliders because I feel like doing so is forcing things to happen instead of them being organic. I also think its an endless cycle of trying to find the "perfect combination".

        Also like I said, I didn't have this issue last year using the same exact settings. If this is a universal "issue" then I'm hoping SDS will look into it and see what needs to be tweaked/adjusted.
        I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

        I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


        Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

        Comment

        • Drty_Windshield
          Banned
          • Mar 2018
          • 880

          #5
          Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

          Originally posted by countryboy
          I'm not a fan of adjusting sliders because I feel like doing so is forcing things to happen instead of them being organic. I also think its an endless cycle of trying to find the "perfect combination".

          Also like I said, I didn't have this issue last year using the same exact settings. If this is a universal "issue" then I'm hoping SDS will look into it and see what needs to be tweaked/adjusted.
          I'm actually quite the opposite, I feel like the default game feels forced, while a well tested and balanced slider set feels much more organic and natural.

          Comment

          • countryboy
            Growing pains
            • Sep 2003
            • 52704

            #6
            Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

            Originally posted by Drty_Windshield
            I'm actually quite the opposite, I feel like the default game feels forced, while a well tested and balanced slider set feels much more organic and natural.
            I appreciate that opinion, but I don't want this thread to get side tracked into a discussion about the need for sliders in general.

            I'm curious if others are experiencing this issue while playing on settings similar to last year. Has anyone had to make changes to their sliders, or "normal" settings to resolve this "issue"
            I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

            I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


            Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

            Comment

            • KnightTemplar
              MVP
              • Feb 2017
              • 3282

              #7
              Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

              Originally posted by countryboy
              I'm not a fan of adjusting sliders because I feel like doing so is forcing things to happen instead of them being organic. I also think its an endless cycle of trying to find the "perfect combination".
              .
              This game out of the box, in my opinion, MUST be adjusted with sliders. I would bet few play at default. I certainly don’t/can’t. They can’t make a game out of the box that suits everyone’s ability. If so, don’t you think, there would be only one level of difficulty.

              If they took the sliders out it would make this game aggravating for most. Use them countryboy. Don’t go crazy with them, adjust, test, repeat until you find a balance.

              And yes, gameplay took me awhile. Hell, I’m playing on HOF now.up an entire level.
              Last edited by KnightTemplar; 04-23-2019, 12:12 PM.

              Comment

              • bcruise
                Hall Of Fame
                • Mar 2004
                • 23274

                #8
                Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                I've been working hard on this too, playing a lot of games with high K/9 guys. I feel like the strikeouts are there and I do definitely get the CPU to chase with meter legend (sometimes chase rates of up to 50% which is really high). What I don't see a lot of is swinging and missing in the strike zone - so a very high percentage of my K's are from chases or called strike 3's.

                CB - what would you say the CPU's chase rate (Swings Chased/Balls) is against you when you pitch with a guy like Flaherty? It's easier to discuss this if we put some numbers to it.
                Last edited by bcruise; 04-23-2019, 12:30 PM.

                Comment

                • Vercingetirex
                  Rookie
                  • Jun 2018
                  • 250

                  #9
                  Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                  I brought up this same issue here in the sliders forum https://forums.operationsports.com/f...hits-runs.html


                  Sliders are having very little impact in fixing this issue.

                  Comment

                  • countryboy
                    Growing pains
                    • Sep 2003
                    • 52704

                    #10
                    Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                    Originally posted by bcruise
                    I've been working hard on this too, playing a lot of games with high K/9 guys. I feel like the strikeouts are there and I do definitely get the CPU to chase with meter legend (sometimes chase rates of up to 50% which is really high). What I don't see a lot of is swinging and missing in the strike zone - so a very high percentage of my K's are from chases or called strike 3's.

                    CB - what would you say the CPU's chase rate (Swings Chased/Balls) is against you when you pitch with a guy like Flaherty? It's easier to discuss this if we put some numbers to it.
                    If I had to take an educated guess I would say around 10-15%?? It may be closer to 20%, but still I feel that the CPU, and even myself, is able to get bat to ball even on pitches they seem completely fooled on.

                    And I agree with the swinging and missing within the zone. Again, I'm not necessarily worried about strikeouts per se, even though I mentioned them for reference. I agree the strikeouts are there, but something just feels off compared to previous years.

                    Are you playing on DEFAULT bcruise or a similar slider set to '18?
                    I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                    I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                    Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

                    Comment

                    • bcruise
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 23274

                      #11
                      Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                      Originally posted by countryboy
                      If I had to take an educated guess I would say around 10-15%?? It may be closer to 20%, but still I feel that the CPU, and even myself, is able to get bat to ball even on pitches they seem completely fooled on.

                      And I agree with the swinging and missing within the zone. Again, I'm not necessarily worried about strikeouts per se, even though I mentioned them for reference. I agree the strikeouts are there, but something just feels off compared to previous years.

                      Are you playing on DEFAULT bcruise or a similar slider set to '18?
                      As far as pitching is concerned, I'm on straight default. I haven't had a double digit strikeout game (with one pitcher) yet on default Legend, but I'm regularly in the 6-8 range with good strikeout guys. It's not unreasonable to think that if I get some early K's to boost confidence (and with it, control) with a guy like that, that I can hit double digits. That's why I don't want to tweak anything just yet, though I'll acknowledge that guys like that only getting 6-8 or lower every game would be considered low.

                      I do agree with you on the CPU getting contact when it probably shouldn't, based on PCI placement. When it does that to me those are usually fouls, and I think because of that Foul Frequency down would be one of the first things I'd try to adjust. In past games I recall that adjustment turning a lot of those types of fouls into swings and misses. It's a low-impact slider that doesn't mess with too many other parts of the game.

                      Flaherty has +90 K/9 in your carryover? He was already high in the default roster (82) but he got even better...scary.
                      Last edited by bcruise; 04-23-2019, 12:56 PM.

                      Comment

                      • JoshC1977
                        All Star
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 11564

                        #12
                        Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                        I don't think you're off-base at all to be honest. From my own observations playing the game, watching others play, and reading feedback in various forums/social media, I definitely feel that contact is, in general, a tad overdone globally. On All Star, contact is pervasive on both sides and it preferentially affects the CPU the higher in difficulty you go.

                        I'm also with you about manipulating sliders....one change begats another and another. I disdain "Slider RNG" (i.e. forcing a certain type of outcome to be preferred outside of player ratings). That said, I do feel that there is an imbalance right now.

                        I've taken the approach of simply bumping-up pitch control one tick (on All-Star, for both sides - for higher levels, I'd probably only adjust the user value). Pitch Control is a direct antagonist to the Contact slider and as I feel lowering contact is a bit too much of a "slider RNG" thing, I raised control. I pitch just OFF the edge A LOT (i.e. I try to aim outside the zone). On default, way too many of those borderline pitches drift back into the zone - which can lead to more contact. With a higher control slider, the CPU will swing more, while batted ball outcomes will favor the pitcher a tad more. I've been seeing more 'three true outcomes' and an uptick in both walks and Ks without crushing the CPU's ability to hit. But that is it, literally a 1-slider tweak.

                        It's a band-aid but until SDS comes out with the gameplay patch, it might be the best solution.
                        Play the games you love, not the games you want to love.

                        Comment

                        • countryboy
                          Growing pains
                          • Sep 2003
                          • 52704

                          #13
                          Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                          Originally posted by bcruise
                          As far as pitching is concerned, I'm on straight default. I haven't had a double digit strikeout game (with one pitcher) yet on default Legend, but I'm regularly in the 6-8 range with good strikeout guys. It's not unreasonable to think that if I get some early K's to boost confidence (and with it, control) with a guy like that, that I can hit double digits. That's why I don't want to tweak anything just yet, though I'll acknowledge that guys like that only getting 6-8 or lower every game would be considered low.
                          I had one early with Carlos Martinez, but it was more of the fact that the CPU took a few strikeouts or were rung up on strikes out the zone. So I know it can happen, but it seems more like a "fluke" rather than the norm, which sounds odd because it should be that way. It's just how it happened which to me seems off. My pitcher's don't have "hit and miss stuff" on a given day that allows them to dominate, but rather "get lucky" if that makes sense.

                          And even if I were to consider tweaking sliders, I wouldn't at this stage, because I'm still trying to determine if its the game or its me.


                          I do agree with you on the CPU getting contact when it probably shouldn't, based on PCI placement. When it does that to me those are usually fouls, and I think because of that Foul Frequency down would be one of the first things I'd try to adjust. In past games I recall that adjustment turning a lot of those types of fouls into swings and misses. It's a low-impact slider that doesn't mess with too many other parts of the game.
                          Agreed 100% of these bad swings equating to foul balls. That is probably my biggest bugaboo is the fact that contact is too easily made. If I was able to fool a hitter and he swing and miss then that would generate more organic strikeouts in my opinion.

                          Again, its tough to say what is right and wrong because its so subjective. I'm just trying to see if the community has similar feelings as I do and if so, then SDS will be more likely to look into it.
                          I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                          I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                          Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

                          Comment

                          • bcruise
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 23274

                            #14
                            Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                            Originally posted by JoshC1977
                            I don't think you're off-base at all to be honest. From my own observations playing the game, watching others play, and reading feedback in various forums/social media, I definitely feel that contact is, in general, a tad overdone globally. On All Star, contact is pervasive on both sides and it preferentially affects the CPU the higher in difficulty you go.

                            I'm also with you about manipulating sliders....one change begats another and another. I disdain "Slider RNG" (i.e. forcing a certain type of outcome to be preferred outside of player ratings). That said, I do feel that there is an imbalance right now.

                            I've taken the approach of simply bumping-up pitch control one tick (on All-Star, for both sides - for higher levels, I'd probably only adjust the user value). Pitch Control is a direct antagonist to the Contact slider and as I feel lowering contact is a bit too much of a "slider RNG" thing, I raised control. I pitch just OFF the edge A LOT (i.e. I try to aim outside the zone). On default, way too many of those borderline pitches drift back into the zone - which can lead to more contact. With a higher control slider, the CPU will swing more, while batted ball outcomes will favor the pitcher a tad more. I've been seeing more 'three true outcomes' and an uptick in both walks and Ks without crushing the CPU's ability to hit. But that is it, literally a 1-slider tweak.

                            It's a band-aid but until SDS comes out with the gameplay patch, it might be the best solution.
                            The whole idea about upping pitcher control is really interesting, because it's essentially the same effect I was talking about with getting high confidence early in a game and "getting on a roll" so to speak. I want the same thing because I know it'll increase K's (because control is a big factor on Legend with any pitching mode except maybe analog) , but I'm trying to make it happen without a slider change, for now.

                            I missed these types of discussions on here.

                            Comment

                            • Vercingetirex
                              Rookie
                              • Jun 2018
                              • 250

                              #15
                              Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

                              Honestly moving control has done nothing for me other than putting the pitch closer to my initial target. Pitching consistency has had a slightly better effect. Ultimately though, turning foul frequency and timing down has helped too, but not to the level I am seeking.

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