Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

[Pappy Knuckles]

Nothing has changed in the NFL licensing landscape since APF 2K8 released in 2007 (just typing that makes me sad). When we now consider the fact it came out over 10 years ago, and that there has never been any indication that the NFL wants to end things with EA, there's really not much of a reason to continue hoping for the return of an NFL 2K game. I give up.

In APF 2K8, 2K chose to deal with the lack of an NFL license by signing a bunch of retired players. It ended up being a formula that worked very well, but was playing with legends the main draw for most of us that loved this game? It certainly wasn't for me.

I loved APF 2k8 because of what was happening on the field, and I know that I'm not alone. Madden has slowly continued to get better over the years, but at this point, it should be much further beyond last generation football games than it is now.

I'm curious how much interest there would be in APF returning with an entirely fictional roster, or something similar to what they did with the last game? 2K is so much bigger than it was back then. Putting resources into a game like this wouldn't put much of a dent in their pockets, and it would great to see them back in the football world. It's long overdue at this point.

[eye guy]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

As much as I enjoyed APF 2K8, I would have to say no. I would rather see them support titles like BMX Street Pipes and Sessions and inject some resources to push those games to the next level with an xgames license (amongst others) for example.

[illwill10]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

Nothing has changed in the NFL licensing landscape since APF 2K8 released in 2007 (just typing that makes me sad). When we now consider the fact it came out over 10 years ago, and that there has never been any indication that the NFL wants to end things with EA, there's really not much of a reason to continue hoping for the return of an NFL 2K game. I give up.

In APF 2K8, 2K chose to deal with the lack of an NFL license by signing a bunch of retired players. It ended up being a formula that worked very well, but was playing with legends the main draw for most of us that loved this game? It certainly wasn't for me.

I loved APF 2k8 because of what was happening on the field, and I know that I'm not alone. Madden has slowly continued to get better over the years, but at this point, it should be much further beyond last generation football games than it is now.

I'm curious how much interest there would be in APF returning with an entirely fictional roster, or something similar to what they did with the last game? 2K is so much bigger than it was back then. Putting resources into a game like this wouldn't put much of a dent in their pockets, and it would great to see them back in the football world. It's long overdue at this point.

I think APF stopped because it didn't sell well and thats with NFL legends. I think was about 100K in first couple weeks and died off. I don't think a unlicensed fictional sports game would sell well at all.

I believe 2k wants to jump back in the football market. But I feel they want to have an licensed game. I don't think they want to make a game just to make one. If thats the case they would have already just like EA could have made an unlicensed college game.

But I would definitely be interested in a fictional 2k game. The issue with APF was the lack of depth. 2k8 had its flaws. But from a gameplay perspective, it is still way ahead of Madden. I can still have fun playing 2k8 to this day and debating on starting a season. Definitely using the hex editor makes it more fun. I actually think making a full fictional roster would be better. There wouldn't be any creative restrictions. They don't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings. They would make need to make the game fully customizable. They would need a lot of depth. Multi season mode and ways to build your team. If they can build upon the game play, add multiseason mode with team building, customization, and a lot of depth, then I would support it

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I'm with you 100% on your suggestions for a fictional game.

[illwill10]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

What Madden is doing now with Superstar abilities, APF already did and did a great job with. The abilities in APF felt balanced and not over powered like Supersrar X-Factors seems like it might be. I was able to have fun with pocket passers more than scramblers. Having Rocket Arm, Laser Arm, and Quick Release, you can sit back and throw darts. You're able to fit passes in that other QBs aren't able too and look realistic. Or creating a dominant penetrating DT. You can disrupt a lot of plays. But at the same time, it didn't feel overpowered. It wasn't guaranteed to always work. The counterparts felt balanced. A bump master versus bump buster felt like one wasn't stronger than the other. When matched up, it wasn't a guaranteed win or lose.

The thing is that the possible game couldn't make the same mistake as APF. Outside of gameplay, there was no depth. Using legends were limiting to a fault. You can't make a multiseason mode with legends. I didn't really care for them hiding attributes and limiting user teams. Even with hex editor, you had to know work around. I get how to kick now, but I struggled at first how to kick in APF. They should have kept the 2k5 kicking mechanic as an option.

The main thing would not to openly compete against Madden. Madden is too much of a juggernaut because of the brand. I actually think they shouldn't follow the NFL model. I didn't buy APF a few times because of NFL legends. I bought it because of 2k and gameplay. If the game is going to fictional, then it should embrace the fictional aspect. Think about a game like Saints Row. The first game or two, they tried to follow the GTA model and couldn't compete. But then went in the own direction with SR3 and SR4. That what a fictional 2k should do. Where it should still have core aspects of football and have a multiseason mode with Practice, Scouting, Free Agenct, and draft. But the goal shouldn't be to be NFL-lite, it should be to follow their own path. Because most would think if I want to play NFL I would play Madden. They would need to find a way to separate themselves from Madden besides just former players.

It would a lot cheaper to develop a fictional game. They wouldn't have to pay for license or likenesses. 2k signed 7 year 1.1 billion for license for NBA. I don't see NBA getting a discount. They don't sell well enough to take that on. They wouldn't need to follow the Microtransctions model to turn a profit. The thing with the NFL exclusive license is that they have been very quiet about it. I think they renewed it in 2016. So probably will get renewed in 2021. But the thing is that Rex Dickson had a interview and said around the time with the "Come at us bro" comment that their was a rumor that NFL had met with 2k about possibility of comeback. I don't know the truth on that. Madden is almost too big to fail. Even if it has a down year and has bad reviews, it still sell relatively well. But what started speculation was the whole MyCareer trailer this past year. Where it was one thing to add a football to the neighborhood and be able to throw it, but to intentionally show the football being thrown at the end of the neighborhood trailer didn't feel so coincidental. It could be, but I felt they could have added a frisbee instead. I know NFL prefers exclusive licenses so they have more control of what is promoted. I know 2k wants to jump back in the market. But if I to choose what was more likely to happen sooner between 2k making a football game or NBA Live stopping again, I would choose NBA Live. I think it more likely that Live doesn't make the initial jump to next generation. Especially it comes out pretty much discounted and is about $15 around the holidays. I think 2k wants the NFL license. Madden isn't losing sales substantially enough to go anywhere and I don't see NFL straying away from the one brand per product model they follow

[Junior Moe]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I would be onboard for another All Pro 2K; conceptually, and gameplay wise that game was awesome. I would not get a game with a fictional league and fictional players.



If 2K really wanted to get back into football I think that the NCAA is best route. The players would have to be generic and fictional, but that doesn't mean that hey can be realistic. Bama can still be a dominant defensive powerhouse. They could even sign the coaches to lend more authenticity like they did in College Hoops 2k7.



For the money maker, they could copy NBA 2Ks MyCareer. You create your player at whatever position. You're the new big man on campus. Every position (even offensive linemen) has archetypes. You grind your player up through the story or pay (naturally). Online would be like NBA 2K as well. You and 4 other my players play on a squad. The rest of the CPU controlled players would be based on what type of team you want like how All Pro did it. Online you could use the licensed NCAA teams uniforms (I'm talking every uni in a schools history, charge for them...) or use 2K's robust creation suite. 2K would have to have a filter for actual NFL logos as many people will just try to recreate NFL2K and you know EA and the NFL will be on it. I have seen what the community has come up with in NBA 2K and the original designs are amazing. That's just a rough sketch, but I think something like that could make some money.

[ASZEMPLE]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

All I would need is an updated 2k8 engine and refinements on it. I think gameplay wise APF 2k8 was a masterpiece so I definitely would be on board with what ever they would produce. I would like a total customization vs a fictional league and pair that will NBA 2k myleague franchise mode and I’m sold.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I've competed in several Madden leagues. If you play for enough seasons, there always ends up being a point where you have a bunch of fictional characters through the draft. So for me, I'm cool with whatever when it comes to what the roster looks like. Obviously, having actual players in there is always a plus, but if the fictional world is fleshed out enough, it really doesn't matter to me. APF 2K8 gods like Terry Supernaw were greater than 99% of real NFL players anyway.

I think Junior hit the nail on the head as far as customization and 2K's ability to monetize it goes, though. There are limitless ways to make an APF 2K return a successful one, but it's hard to know how much 2K feels that it would be worth it.

They're making a killing on the 2K series. I know that I've probably spent around $250-$300 this season between the game itself and VC. Getting a new series to become a moneymaker like that isn't an easy task. I'd love to have a bug in the room during some of the conversations they've had about it.

[Thunderhorse]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I think a remastered version with some updates formations and tweaks to some of the abilities/mechanics would give us the best playing football game on the market.

I don’t believe franchise is a selling point and I don’t believe APF failed because there was no franchise mode. APF failed because the average virtual football consumer is not fanatical enough to know who most of the legends were, nor were they knowledgeable enough about the intricacies of the sport to appreciate how strategically deep the game was.

Madden does a spectacular job of making things easy and accessible. The skill gap in madden is not as wide as it was in 2K.

For me what made All Pro so interesting was the fact you could contrast different eras of football against each other. Some of the “wing T” style formations were interesting to fool around with. It was fun building an offense around a fullback who was the primary ball carrier. It was fun creating offensive schemes that employed very skilled lineman to open up the offense. Giving a gold guard speed burner, bulldozer, leadership, etc.; and watching him destroy the olb/nickel back/ safety after pulling. Then taking it a step further and building an offensive scheme around that.

More formations, more polish, and top of the line graphics. Put that out without worrying about contracting a bunch of former players and see how that sells. Use the same engine.

[mestevo]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.

[illwill10]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.

I agree
Where the gameplay is good enough to bring me back time to time, but the lack of depth loses my interest quick. The issue with APF was the approach they went with. It felt like a "Year One" of a new football game. Where if it was a startup company, they would have satisfied with the product and probably would continued on. But 2k had high expectations, so with low sales, they pulled plug. I get the legend allure. But to the casual fan, they only know hand full of the legends. And I really don't know how they would expanded from 2k8 anyway. Besides, signing more legends, that approach was too limited. Madden is a juggernaut as far as sales, it always outsold competitors, so they can't try to based success off of sales. 2k approach with 2k8 was pretty on how well they sold. But issue was they pretty much took a step back from 2k5 and basically resetted. They should have learned from 2k4 when they did horrible in sales because they rebranded themselves as ESPN Football. So they pretty much doomed themselves from the start.

The news with the NCAA today examining whether to change the rules to allow players to be compensated for their likenes, could be huge news for a possible return of a college sports game. That was one of the main hurdles. So if it happens, I can see a college sports game coming back. If they can be compensated for the name and likeness, I can see them being able to have real names and pictures. It would be easier to promote a college sports game when you can actually use a current popular NCAA player on the cover. Imagine being able to promote Trevor Lawrence or Tua now, rather than when he is headed to pros.

So if the NCAA leads to something, that could be an option for 2k to approach

[Thunderhorse]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.

I completely disagree with this perception.

Madden’s franchise mode does not drive sales. NBA 2K’s immersive “franchise” mode is objectively better than Madden’s, and it may be the least profitable part of their product.

some form of ultimate/my team, a different online multiplayer experience (team play), or any other type of innovative game experience will drive sales.

The franchise die hard demographic is a small one and holds little to no relevance when considering the environment we live in today. EA has proven this by consistently, year after year, neglecting that portion of their product while they still make money hand over fist with other game modes.

[mestevo]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I completely disagree with this perception.

Madden’s franchise mode does not drive sales. NBA 2K’s immersive “franchise” mode is objectively better than Madden’s, and it may be the least profitable part of their product.

some form of ultimate/my team, a different online multiplayer experience (team play), or any other type of innovative game experience will drive sales.

The franchise die hard demographic is a small one and holds little to no relevance when considering the environment we live in today. EA has proven this by consistently, year after year, neglecting that portion of their product while they still make money hand over fist with other game modes.

You 'disagree completely' by then agreeing with me. When I'm getting weekly announcing and roster updates it tells me EA finds value in franchise customers, they are making metrics-backed decisions to continue to develop the mode (albeit at a pace few would agree with) and support it throughout the season. To discount it entirely is silly (as are many absolutes in discussions like this), almost as silly as saying APF would be successful if it was just remastered and re-released - which is what my reply is based off of. It would likely fail again for all the same reasons - it doesn't meet expectations or provide the feedback loops people want in football games.

I think it's kind of funny to suggest they need to innovate by letting you do non-football things. Personally I think this is why non-licensed games typically fail, they try too hard to do something that everyone is looking to do. If team play was an innovation people wanted, it would probably still be in Madden in some form. Your prior post said people don't care about players, and now you suggest an ultimate team mode... how much will they care about generic players?

You have to start with a football game. You build on the football game, and you build your feedback loop around what people want to do in a football game. If you take all the traditional things away then what do you have left? At that point why even 11 on 11? Why even have names or rosters? If people don't care about players, maybe they won't care about plays either? Dumb down your customer so far and you end up w/ a 10 yard fight remake, but at least you can press a button to get a couple extra yards.

With no depth you have no game. People don't watch Patrick Mahomes throw an 80 yard bomb and then wish there was a game that lets them setup generic chess pieces to scheme for/against such a play (and man... if you think that customer is more lucrative than franchise players, I'm not sure what to say). To reiterate the point of my post (as you honed in on only franchise) - with no longevity a game like APF is dead on arrival, and APF remains the biggest example of this.

[tril]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

if 2k adds a franchise mode to APF, make it an all fictional league. then yes.
it would probably still be a niche product, but it would sell. APF2k8 game-play is still alot better than the current Madden.

the tiered/bronze, gold etc players was a great idea that kept the game play balanced and would go a long way in a franchise mode.
in addition, a fictional league that keeps historical records, where the users universe plays out in its own world would be great for us stats geeks.

starting a franchise league from year one has so much potential. in the draft do you draft a 21 year old rookie or do you draft a 33 year old qb with some professional experience. those types of elements in the APF player tiered structure really adds an element of team building

2k dropped the ball when they didnt include a franchise mode in the original APF2k

[Thunderhorse]

Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

Your reply is all over the place. I'll try to keep this succinct and touch on the different points without writing another term paper.

You 'disagree completely' by then agreeing with me. When I'm getting weekly announcing and roster updates it tells me EA finds value in franchise customers, they are making metrics-backed decisions to continue to develop the mode (albeit at a pace few would agree with) and support it throughout the season. To discount it entirely is silly (as are many absolutes in discussions like this), almost as silly as saying APF would be successful if it was just remastered and re-released - which is what my reply is based off of.

You specifically used 'franchise' as a reason 2K8 was a monetary failure. I agree the product needed additional gameplay features that enabled some form of longevity, but in terms of commercial viability, having a franchise mode in today's market is not what's going to sell the game.

Sure, EA says they're working hard on franchise mode. They promise it will be better.

Ea says a lot of things. We all know MUT sales are driving development and that they're very interested in E-sports. These are objectively factual observations.

I think it's kind of funny to suggest they need to innovate by letting you do non-football things. Personally I think this is why non-licensed games typically fail, they try too hard to do something that everyone is looking to do. If team play was an innovation people wanted, it would probably still be in Madden in some form. Your prior post said people don't care about players, and now you suggest an ultimate team mode... how much will they care about generic players?

I said the user base did not care about the "legends" of all pro because they could not connect with them on a personal level. How many people, even avid football fans, could tell you who Joe Perry, Dave Wilcox, Don Maynard, and Leonard Marshall are?

How many kids and young adults want to play with an all pro fullback from the 50's when you can put the other game in and play with Saquan Barkley, right now?

Did Madden remove OTP? It was in 18, I usually wait until the end of the cycle to buy madden cheap and have not bothered with 19.

You're also thinking about these things (potential game modes like an Ultimate Team, Online Team play, ETC.) in a prism that they have to be just like EA's. 2K's basketball title has a mode call my park with 3v3 and 2v2 modes. Anyone who's played football knows about "Skelly" (7 v 7). There are different ways to creatively innovate.

You have to start with a football game. You build on the football game, and you build your feedback loop around what people want to do in a football game. If you take all the traditional things away then what do you have left? At that point why even 11 on 11? Why even have names or rosters? If people don't care about players, maybe they won't care about plays either? Dumb down your customer so far and you end up w/ a 10 yard fight remake, but at least you can press a button to get a couple extra yards.

I don't understand where you are coming from, contextually, with this paragraph. The bridge you are trying to build here has no foundation.

Franchise is not what's bringing people back to Madden. No matter how large the flowing river of tears becomes from the OS user base; The game continues to sell.

For me personally 2K8 was okay. I will still play it because I enjoy the schematic nature of it. I have never said that is for everyone. The title of thread is "Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?".

I did say that if the product was going to work commercially they would need additional revenue streams to do so. And Franchise is not going to be one of them.

With no depth you have no game. People don't watch Patrick Mahomes throw an 80 yard bomb and then wish there was a game that lets them setup generic chess pieces to scheme for/against such a play (and man... if you think that customer is more lucrative than franchise players, I'm not sure what to say). To reiterate the point of my post (as you honed in on only franchise) - with no longevity a game like APF is dead on arrival, and APF remains the biggest example of this.

Your "point" evidenced franchise as the primary driver for that. Your assertion that "no modes (franchise or otherwise)" means more than just franchise does not work, because the only thing Madden 08 had that 2K8 didn't is franchise.

It's 2019 dude. The market is different today. The games are different today. The consumer... They're different today.