I honestly think this game plays better than current gen Madden.
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
after watching this. I've came to the conclusion...
Madden ultimate team is the worst thing to happen to madden -
Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
I'm still playing this game. I just started year 2 of a 32 created team league. They're all cupcake rosters, then I use ncaa 05 to generate draft classes with actual pros. This game plays so much better than current madden games, and the franchise mode is way better. It's kind of sad really.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
I just picked this one up in a flea market for a dollar. This is the last one where you can use created playbooks in franchise mode.Comment
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I would say it's nice to meet you but it's not so I don't pretend it is when I greet you.
Madden 25 NBA2k13 downhill from thereComment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
Is there a way to modify the controls so that sprint is the x button on both offense and defense? Madden 05 seems to be the only Madden that doesn’t allow control customization.
ThanksMegatronComment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
I booted it up on my Xbox classic, and you are correct. You cannot make any changes. I wonder if this had anything to do with the introduction of the hit stick and EA dealing with potential bugs in their short (9 month?) development cycle before returning that feature for Madden 06.
Truth. EA was always looking for a way to cash in on micro transactions, and was going bout it all wrong with trying to sell uniforms, and later "accelerators" for franchise mode - such as unlocking fully scouted players by position or a bundle for everyone, the ability to convince players to NOT retire. The "accelerators" never impacted progression of your players, thankfully, but they were all silly attempts to create DLC.
I am pretty sure it was Ian Cummings on these very forums who replied to the Uniform DLC fiasco of the previous creative director and said how difficult it was to create DLC for a football game - that this wasn't a firt person shooter where you sell extra maps for online play or an RPG where you sell extra side quests, or a racing game where you can sell additional cars and tracks. It is the NFL. You are supposed to have all 32 teams and stadiums and so forth.
MUT is the most obvious solution to this "problem". Go back to the PS2 era Madden Cards and make a collectable that you can grind away for free but also have the ability to buy packs with real money just like real football trading cards. Magic The Gathering and HearthStone are digital card games, and MUT is a combination of cards and Madden.
I don't like it, but it is logical.
To me, having to play a 32 user control franchise is a red flag, but if you enjoy it, then that is what matters most.
PS2/Xbox classic franchise mode is archaic by the standards of Madden 12 and Madden 25.I have written about it several times before, but the summary is thus:
Q: What makes Season mode different that play now games?
A: Persistent injuries + a post season + the ability to make trades + stat tracking.
Q: What makes Franchise mode different than a season mode?
A: The off season / roster progression - Progression, regression, players aging, retirement, contracts expire, free agent bidding, scouting + the draft. The list goes on, but the point is that the off season is the heart of Franchise mode.
While many factors make for a great off season, but the draft is the heart of it all. The influx of young talent and your ability to build a team through the draft.
This is where i have my #1 problem with Gen6 Madden: The draft is shallow. You couldn't trade future picks until Madden 12 on Gen7 consoles. Gen6 players have limited ratings, which limited "scouting" to finding the fastest players with the highest awareness in the draft, and much the same on offense. For offensive line, it was just the strongest guys with the highest pass/run block ratings. There were zero draft story lines. We are talking kiddie pool levels of depth.
Compare that to Gen7 Madden with a wide range of player ratings + traits, and in M25 we got player scheme and player type. Combined with the ability to trade future picks, overhauled trade value logic, and actual story lines, M25 gave us the first (and last?) great franchise mode. you could build your team many different ways for different reasons based on different schemes and goals.
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The reason I still go back to Gen6 Madden is nostalgia and the fun of the mini camp games.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
The best team building experience is Head Coach 09. Its not even close. The ability to start at the offseason is simply brilliant.
I respect what you are saying about player ratings as it relates to scouting. I agree with, but it doesn't translate to teh game. 12 is one of the worst gameplay experiences of the series. LBs are superhuman, and despite adding coverage ratings, zone play is still an abomination. I tried dozens of slider sets and settings, the gameplay is just terrible.
The backbone of franchise is much stronger, with a working IR, and the ability to have full offseason (75-man) rosters.
I thought 15 played pretty well. But the lack of customization left me wanting. (CFM files can't be modded, encryption was never cracked)
The PS2-era does live off the nostalgia factor, no doubt. But it is still pretty viable in terms of playability.You want free speech?
Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
Before I write anything, I want to first ask HOW you play and what you want out of your Madden experience.
Coach mode? User control?
Vs other players or vs the computer?
Additionally, what is your philosophy on offense and defense? How much does it change from team to team? How much should it change, in your opinion?
For me, I enjoy both coach mode and user play - but "sim style" user play. Not trying to cheese the AI with "giltchy" nanos and one TD plays. The only hot routes I call are the "smart routes", or real life pre-snap adjustments based on NFL playbooks. For example, against backed off coverage, I used the Deep Comeback hot route outside, and fade or even go release against press/tight coverage looks. I will motion a single side WR inside the numbers pre-snap just like in real life as well. I don't call go routes to pull a deep third defender off so I can throw a corner underneath it, though I am not afraid to al stock plays which do something like this. I don't just hot route drags and slants to cheesy the AI either, but I won't back away from calling the various stock MESH concepts.
True, and you will get no disagreement from me. However, the payoff is abysmal. The whole point of everything is seeing it come together on game day, and the product on the field is Xbox 360 Madden 08. Not even Madden 09, the game it was bundled with, or PS2 era Madden 08.
On the field and off the field are interconnected. If players can enjoy simulating games and continuing an adventure through HC09, then I will by no means try to take away their fun. I can only speak for myself, but HC09 was Madden 08 Coach Mode with extra steps.
I respect what you are saying about player ratings as it relates to scouting. I agree with, but it doesn't translate to the game. 12 is one of the worst gameplay experiences of the series. LBs are superhuman, and despite adding coverage ratings, zone play is still an abomination. I tried dozens of slider sets and settings, the gameplay is just terrible.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here I feel. While not perfect, it Madden 12 was the first step in what would lead to even better game play for Madden 25 in terms of defense. The head tracking, technique of defenders in zone, and the animation transitions were the best in Madden until that point. I just don't know if it is worth going into a deep dive as to why.
I make no assumptions and must ask if you were aware that "play recognition" was the dominate rating before the ball was thrown in determining how well defenders played their zone assignments? The Zone coverage rating is what took over once the ball was thrown and was used to determine reaction time, breakup chance, and tackle chance.
Edit a team to 12 or whatever the minimum rating is for play recognition and the defenders would float around lost, and it wouldn't mater if they had 99 zone coverage, because they wouldn't be in good position. however, force a stupid throw to a defender who happened to actually be in the area covering the ball and there was a very high chance that the pass would be broken up, knocked down, or even intercepted. Furthermore, like it or not, zone coverage also impacted the tackle chance after the catch as the WR came down before they were an open field runner or were otherwise trying to catch the ball in traffic. The base tackle rating was used for tackling players who were established runners in the open field. I agree with this, as even Bill Belichick in his defensive playbooks talks about tackling technique in coverage and use of hands so that you still have an arm free to make a tackle and so forth.
Conversely, put your team at 99 play recognition nad the minimum zone coverage and the cover 3 and cover 4 defense will do the best job a Madden game had ever done up to that point in taking away windows, flowing and passing off receivers in zone to a team mate, choosing to over the deeper threat against a concept designed to flood their zone with a high low - you always take high, keep the play in front of you, make he tackle and go to the next down. Never give them the deeper route and free yards. However, if they also have the minimum zone coverage rating, they will just "dumb out" and not really react to the ball in the air and turn into a traffic cone out there.
Now, I am not going to sit here and tell you that it was perfect. It wasn't. The sidelines have always been an area where zone coverage in Madden has had problems, where defenders will "dumb out" and just allow a WR to run free or otherwise escape coverage that was otherwise tight. Also, the longer a play lasted and routes developed, defenders would not switch over to match coverage and stick with a receiver - instead choosing to cover nothing in their pre-programmed zones. However, one cannot blame Madden 12 for this or call it the worst. I have never seen a single Madden NOT do this ever. It is not fair to blame Madden 12 for a legacy flaw found in all of the games.
Again, I can only speak for myself, but it was a revelation when I learned that play recognition was the true Zone Coverage rating, and that Zone Coverage is what was used once the ball was thrown + player traits for playing the ball in the air. Unlike Man coverage, which was directly tied to route running, it is easy to assume that Zone coverage would be the determining factor on zone drops and handling route combinations, but it just isn't.
As far as superhuman Linebackers, I really do not know what people mean when they say this. While Madden 10 was the first and last game with proper foot pinning, people have exaggerated "superhuman LBs" while also discrediting the real life ability of real linebackers. the average Vertical jump of linebackers in the NFL at the combine is 34.5, with Cameron Wake jumping 45.5 inches. Did you watch the 49ers vs Packers week 3 game? Did you see Fred Warner trying to defend the pass to Adams with 37 seconds left?Here it is, go to 2:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itZnhwtJZYQ
Did you see AJ Hawk a few years ago jump over Sproles to defend a pass and then make a game saving leap on the goal line to win the game? You can see it here:
Not every linebacker is a super athlete, but they are far better than Madden players give them credit for. Even when I was at the Madden 11 community event, more than once I heard my opponent complain about "typical super LB play" when 6'6" Manny Lawson with 40" vertical jump didn't even leap higher than calf level of a player he was next to. I can jump that high (not 40", but calf high), and I am a 275lb offensive lineman for my team of amateur adults.
If people are talking about change of direction, that is another area where it has been proven that casual madden players do not fully respect the athleticism and technique of these real life players. One of the devs had a blog back in Madden 10 which have been taken down which showed the kinds of moves these real athletes pull off. Here is a video of Big Willie McGinest from 2020, who played from 1994 to 2008 and showing explosiveness, change of direction and acceleration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6cj-F_Yvco
Finally, I wanted to talk about the running game. Beginning with Madden 11, EA Tiburon added improved blocking logic, zone step animations, improved double teams and how defenders played against those double teams and used leverage to shed blocks.
As a user, you could finally line up with a zone run call, understand your outside to inside reads, snap the ball and trust what you see. In prior version of Madden, and especially on the PS2/Gen6 version, there was a lot of shifting in blocking animations which you could only trust to screw you over and be opposite of what they were supposed to be. What I mean is, you could see a double team in Madden 08 on the PC and see your play side lineman on a double team with head outside leverage and almsot like clockwork watch the animation shift into that same linemen sliding backwards and the inside lineman being the one to release to the LB. If you went outside of this block at first, like you are supposed to, the defensive linemen would shed and tackle you. If you cut it inside because you knew what was going to happen, you could get some yards and feel cheated out of the great play that wasn't.
However, by Madden 11, you could trust in the animation and leverage you saw and could be a one cut runner who used the right analog juke stick to make one cut opposite of the run direction to make a move backside and hit holes as the defense built a wall play side.
What is more, especially by Madden 25 with the improved playbooks, you could implement a proper gap control defense the way they do in real life. I have written about it in my blog before and still have the images from back then I can share here which can be replicated in Madden 25, and to the best of my memory, Madden 12:
The chess match of the run game is so important to me and is the foundation of both offense and defense. The ability to scheme up a run and a run defense, having players who can block it up and shut it down. The user control and ability to trust the animations, even when they are fail animations is important. Without a solid run game and run defense, nothing else matters to me. It turns into 7 on 7 flag football if the run game is garbage, as all you do is pass.
The PS2 era Madden run game was essentially action figures crashing into one another. Even with the improvements for 06-08 front side, backside blocking was a hot mess and a complete disaster.
I will agree 100% that Madden 25 plays much better than Madden 12, but I know that there are areas that Madden 12 was good at as well and mention both as recommendations for players to check out.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
Retro Franchise exclusively.
I usually control the Favre-era Packers, and have some fun with the expansion teams as the join the League.
West Coast, exclusively.
Defense, on PC.. 4-3 man-to-man. Its the only thing the AI can run without screaming at my television. 12 did a much better job with the 3-4, I was pleasantly surprised in my experience running the Rodgers-era Packers defenses.
As far as variations.. Offensively? You can run a clear line that goes through any offense that traces back to Gillman-Coryell-Walsh-Gibbs.. Perkins-Erhardt (New England) is practically the only outlier.
I think the game executes offense well. Blocking could be completely overhauled, but I am good with most everything else on that side. (I suppose I shouldn't dismiss the option style offenses. Still don't see that being sustainable. And admittedly, being a retro player, I could give less that two hoots about how well the game executes them.)
Defense is quite different by comparison. And it is where the game falls woefully short in terms of mimicking what teams have been running, past or present.
I think there should be considerable variation on D. Press V Cover 2 V man coverage.. 4-3 V 3-4... 3-3-5 or 4-2-5.. 2 deep V 3 deep V quarters.. Spys and rovers... There are tons of ways to skin the cat on this side, I don't think any version I have ever played managed to capture that.
I won't blow smoke and pretend that I have tons of experience with the PS3/360 gen, but from what I did experience, it would be impossible to replicate the legendary Pete Carroll defense, as an example. The game would never be able to execute 3-deep coverages to that level of perfection.
The shortcomings of the game trace back to online-competitive, IMO. I don't think the dev team will venture too far out of teh comfort zone beacuse of the exploits a revamped D could create.
Sorry, short on time.. Not glossing over the many points you made. You inspired me to give 12 another try. I'll check back in, and hope to continue this conversation.Last edited by Madden08PCgmr; 10-01-2021, 10:13 AM.You want free speech?
Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
NOTE: Any explanations I make here are not an assumption that you personally don't know something, but are a way to teach anyone who might be reading this and to see if there is anything we disagree on that you wish to dive into further.
Thank you for the good conversation. I also want to be clear to everyone reading this: I think Gen6 Madden is a lot of fun and I have a strong feeling of nostalgia for it. Furthermore, Until Madden 12, I felt that Gen6 Madden was the better game. When I was invited to EA for Madden 11, the quote they showed me that they said was the single biggest influence was when said "Forget asking if Madden is the best football game. It isn't even the best Madden game." However, the combined improvements through Madden 09, 10, 11 and into 12 towards the "on field experience" in combination with the Franchise mode improvements done for 12 made it my "new" favorite version of the game upon release. In much the same way that Madden 01-03 are nearly unplayable compared to 04-08, you can say the same about Madden 06-09 on the 360/PS3. Yet, when asked what my favorite version is, I will tell you Madden 25 without hesitation I am sure I would have enjoyed Madden 15 and maybe even 16, but I don't live in the USA and was not about to import titles which were little more than roster updates.
The reason I asked you the questions and am happy to read your response is that it gives us common ground to move the conversation forward.
Agreed, but I was not so clear in that I wanted to know how much you adjust your scheme, game plan and calls based on your roster AND how much your roster building goals are impacted by what you want to do and who you have. Do you approach free agency, the draft and look to make trades to force a traditional 12/21 personnel offense if you don't already have one and/or double down and strengthen that style, or are you ever willing to go 11 personnel and play a more modern WCO with single back 3WR looks and/or transition into it?
Do you mean Gen6 or Gen7? For me, run blocking in Gen6 is atrocious. The zone scheme doesn't exist, and plays with pullers or trappers are a complete joke in Gen6. Pitch plays work, but he ability to find and gain yards on a counter/trap/power play doesn't mean the run game in Gen6 is anywhere close to authentic.I think the game executes offense well. Blocking could be completely overhauled, but I am good with most everything else on that side.
For example:
The core idea of a trap play, and where it gets its name, is that a play-side tackle or TE wants to ignore the play side DE or OLB in favor of attacking and sealing the second level defender. A backside guard typically pulls and is the trapper who "hits you in the ear hole" as Mark Schlereth would say. You create a hole in the C or D gap for the HB to shoot through and into open space. Madden has had these kinds of plays going back to the the SNES, but even Gen6 Madden doesn't accurately represent them. Instead, that play-side Tackle or TE just blocks the guy in front on them and the pulling guard "dumbs out" looking for someone to block or something to do. Depending on the setting you use and the match-up, the play-side tackle or TE will also often get driven backwards off the ball into the lap of the HB and/or have their block shed quickly. These plays are a dumpster fire for the user and the computer.
Instead, for authentic running, Gen6 is limited to dives& off tackle looks + the occasional sweep/pitch. Sure, the counters can gain yards, but they are ugly to look at, inaccurate to a real counter play, and the user has to adapt to Madden style counters to gain yards with them.
Gen7 saw the overhaul to the run game begin with 11 and improved each year into even the more modern games. While 11 was the first step, 12 is where traps, power O and proper counters were all viable. Madden 14(25) was the first time a half decent Zone Run scheme became viable, and I saw Madden 15-16 improved upon that (though I never played those games, I have seen the videos).
As a 49ers fan, it is quite satisfying to go into the custom playbooks and build a book around the Jim Harbaugh Power Run game for Frank Gore, or build a Mike/Kyle Shanahan zone Scheme. If you like the Zone scheme as much as I do, then I don't suggest your force it in 12 - play 14(25) instead. However, if you play a power scheme in 12, then you should have a lot of fun.
Agreed, and this can be true for every Madden game, with Gen6 being far worse than any. Pass rushing and pass blocking on Gen6 is a joke. It is just a child crashing action figures into one another, and it isn't until Madden 12 that the edge rush looks like an edge rush, and Madden 14(25) that introduced the interior pass rush - which included a proper bull rush.Defense is quite different by comparison. And it is where the game falls woefully short in terms of mimicking what teams have been running, past or present.
Madden, no matter if we are talking about Gen6 or Gen7, feels like High School and College football defense. Very basic and fundamental, but without the wrinkles and adjustments based on route combinations and disguises of the NFL. I think that is why NCAA always felt like the better game. Playing the NCAA version of Super Star on the highest difficulty, which began with the High School state championship tournament felt far more realistic to football we see in real life than when EA takes us into the pro game.
Agreed about 75% here. By Madden 14(25), with custom sliders, you can play some good defense. As I shared before, the Monte Kiffin over/under one gap scheme with a hole defender can very much be played. I have thought about making a video abut it, though I feel that you and I are the only audience for an 8 year old video game.I think there should be considerable variation on D. Press V Cover 2 V man coverage.. 4-3 V 3-4... 3-3-5 or 4-2-5.. 2 deep V 3 deep V quarters.. Spys and rovers... There are tons of ways to skin the cat on this side, I don't think any version I have ever played managed to capture that.
Specifically, adjusting the sliders so that the run blocking skill vs the block shedding skill of defenders is respected + adjusting the coverage and catching sliders so that the passing game is better respected is possible as well.
I don't want to repeat what I said before, but Madden 14(25) especially has very good WR/DB animations and reactions to routes based on coverage. However, you need to make user adjustments. For example, you can call cover 3, but you MUST use the coverage audible "protect sidelines", or your CBs can be burned like when Brady + Scotty Miller Burned Green Bay to the end the first half in the NFC Championship game. If you use the sideline protect before the snap, however, the CBs play proper technique and release and do not let anyone, not even 99 speed WRs over their heads deep. Without doing that, they have more of an inside shade technique and react/turn late and get burned. However, they play other route combinations better... so it is a bit of a give and take - which is part of football if you are facing another user. It is very easy, as a user, to call Cover 3, get burned over the top and want ot break your controller and call the game BS because you didn't know you had to make that adjustment and have a good argument that you should have to. I would rather have to make a pre-snap adjustment to tell them to do what they do by default and have the adjustment be the default (if that makes sense?).
Concerning press coverage:
This is a situation in Madden 14(25) where a lot of CBs don't have a high enough press coverage rating and a lot of WRs have a high enough release rating to make calling press coverage a loss whenever you try it. You have to dedicate to press guys and still be aware of your match up, as some teams have one or more guys with 95+ beat the press and just laugh at you no matter who you have against them. It can feel futile.
Concerning Man coverage:
I have never been able to find a fair balance in any Madden where the defense either doesn't become burnt toast or runs the routes before the receivers AND you have proper coverage against TEs and running backs.
I can get solid man coverage in M14(25), but the linebackers get roasted on those same settings. Man coverage is virtual suicide for me, or you crank up the sliders to the point that your defense is ultra lock down. and the AI can't pass the ball. The biggest problem is that I don't think Madden on Gen7 consoles has proper Banjo coverage with leverage. I am sure you know what that is, but anyone reading who doesn't: Banjo coverage is essentially where the MIKE and OLBs "double" the TE and HB and chose who to cover based on the release and pattern matching. The OLB takes away outside leverage and outside release, while the MIKE takes inside action like a drag or IN route. This can be attacked with angle routes, trail routes, but can also be countered depending on the combinations used and by having a Safety or third LB playing as a robber to stop double moves back inside. Sadly, in Madden, you can call a robber play and get burnt outside - which you shouldn't, or call base coverage and get burnt inside - which you shouldn't. This is for Gen6 through Gen7 and beyond. I do not think it is fair to blame Madden 12 or 14(25) any more than it is to forgive Madden 04-08 on PS2 which has the same problems - but only makes up for it by the horrible "jostling" which should be flagged as defensive holding, but isn't.
Concerning 4-3 vs 3-4:
As I am sure you know, there is a difference between front and one gap vs 2 gap. You can play two gap 4-3 and one gap 3-4 in real life, despite those defenses being more known for their strengths the other way around. Madden 14(25) is the first game which gives us proper 3-4 defense, though it remains a mostly one gap scheme with few exceptions. I wrote a blog back when Madden 12 which you can stil read where I recommended using the 4-3 defensive playbook and formation global substitutions into 3-4 personnel and can still run a one gap scheme better than the default 3-4 playbook. Moreover, in both M12 and M14(25), I strongly recommend using the custom playbooks to build a hybrid multiple front book so that you borrow the "Solid" BEAR front and one or two others from the 3-4 books to mix in with the 4-3 over/under/odd plus and stack looks (which I spread the OLBs an pinch the D-Line for make the 6-1 like NE used to beat the Rams in the super bowl).
Concerning the 3-3-5 Nickle defense:
I am not an expert in the 3-3-5, but my understanding has always been as a 2-gap defense which leaves three heavy DT type players (especially the 3-3-5 Bear) where you want the strength of tougher inside run defense vs single back three wide sets at the sacrifice of a pass rush. This is made up for by zone blitzes. However, as mentioned before, Madden is programmed as a mostly 1 gap defense with a few animations where the DTs can shed either way - though mostly represented through user control and flicking the right thumb stick more than AI controlled players. However, the other factor is that you must have defensive linemen who have a high block shedding rating. You can't just plug anyone in there.
Assuming you are a Packers fan, I must note that (with the rosters I have), their front line is not really built to be a good 3-3-5 front based on their ratings. Sure, they have big guys with good strength ratings, but only Ryan Pickett has 90+ (91) block shedding. Even 94 Strength B.J. Raji only has 88 block shedding. That means he doesn't meet the 90+ "elite" block shedding animations and match ups. His 94 strength means he is less likely to be driven of the ball, but he won't be challenging most double teams - and neither will anyone else but Ryan Pickett. Furthermore, that packers defensive line's next two best players at block shedding only have an 80 ratings and then 4 other players with 79 and lower block shedding. That means the two 80 guys will be seen as average skill at best and the other 4 are garbage. This also impacts their entire ability to be a successful 3-4 defense to be honest and might play a role in you personal experience with Madden 12. Finally, with Dynamic Player Performance + consistency traits + confidence hot/cold streaks means that those two 80 Block shedding players are more likely to NOT play up to that 80 rating and take a consistency/cold streak rating drop + your one elite 91 block shedding players is more likely to play under that 91 rating more often than not and act more like Raji as a sub 90 "average" run defender. This is why having more than the minimum threshold is important, s othat cold streaks and low consistency penalties don't drop you out of your ratings range. BJ Raji's 88 rating means that even when he drops, he won't drop under 80.
Compare this to the 49ers, who have Justin Smith and Isaac with 96 and 93 block shedding. Justin is unlikely to ever drop out of "elite" and Issac would have to lose 4 points do to consistency and cold streak to drop out of "elite", which is possible, but difficult. Beyond that, they have only oen defender with sub 80 block shedding up front and the other players have 81, 82, 85 and 87 block shedding. This means that you have to do really poorly week in and week out with the 49ers to get a cold streak to drop them out of "average" run defense, and one player on hot streaks can potentially become another elite run defender.
This all, of course, is also dependent on custom sliders. While I forget what my M12 sliders on, I tend to begin with 0 user run blocking and 25 computer run blocking. Default all-pro is too easy. Default al-madden is designed to be unfair for the user. Custom sliders have to be tuned to respect the ratings.
Concerning the 4-2-5 & 2-4-5 Nickle:
These are the traditional 1 gap defenses which sacrifice strength in defending the run game in favor of improved pas rush. While the 3-3-5 tries to create a pass rush with zone blitzing and sending the 4th guy from different places, the 4-2-5/2-4-5 tries to improve run defense by filling the interior gaps and asking the secondary to plug the D gaps and turn them back or ride them to the sideline. I have seen a lot of players and people who post here at OS that complain about poor run defense from the nickle and then admit through details that they are not properly covering the A and B gaps and/or have poor defenders up front and are getting cut apart by inside zone... and I am sitting here reading and saying "Yeah, that's football, not Madden being a bad game."
As a result of the above, I also often tend to favor my base zone defense and cover 1 robber looks which ask my Safety to cover the slot against 3 wide rather than going Nickle on 1st and 2nd down and 3rd and short. Instead, I save my 4-2-5/2-4-5 nickle against 4 wide and passing downs. I go to 1-5-5 psycho (Packers style) against 5 wide and very long yardage.
Finally, depending on the roster that I have built, I also like to use the Giants NASCAR/4DE look on those passing downs. Any time you jsut want pin your ears back and rush the passer and do not care if they call inside zone or a draw... or even a screen pass.
Like with everything, custom sliders are needed. I tend to choose 5-25 computer pass blocking, or even 5-15. The default 25-50 computer pass protection sliders result in scrub linemen stone wall blocking 90+ pass rushers and it is disgusting, but 0 computer pass blocking seems to also be too weak and giving up pressure against anyone. Madden 12 & 14(25) have different slider settings. Madden 12 has a user pass rushing slider, where 14(25) does not. It changes from game to game.
Concerning Quarters coverage:
I agree, this is kind of the "ultimate" NFL defense with how many post snap adjustments and match coverage rules there are not respected in Madden. Sadly, Madden's Cover 4 is pretty much just 4 guys cover deep with three underneath and hoping for the best up front to get pressure. It can't be a true base defense.
Concerning Cover 3:
Unlike quarters coverage, this can be and is my base defense with Cover 2 mixed in as needed and within situations.
You mentioned the Seahawks LoB defense, but please remember that the LOB was successful because they had elite players, not elite scheme. They had two of the best safeties in the NFL with Earl Thomas who could cover sideline to sideline from the middle of the field and a SS in Chancellor who was an extra LB that made things happen up front. The Hawks could play a ton of cover 1 with outside leverage. Earl would help anything that broke inside down field. The LBs and Kam would help with anything that broke inside short. The CBs used the sideline as an extra defender and were allowed to be very aggressive against anything outside. In addition to all of that, the 3 LBs + Kam or in the nickle, the 2 LBs + Kam could double Banjo the combination of TEs, backs and slot WRs.I won't blow smoke and pretend that I have tons of experience with the PS3/360 gen, but from what I did experience, it would be impossible to replicate the legendary Pete Carroll defense, as an example. The game would never be able to execute 3-deep coverages to that level of perfection.
So, yes, Madden doesn't even allow you to do that level of shades and banjo coverage, but it the scheme has since been exposed and is another example of when Monte Kiffin said: "The reason you coach good technique and simple scheme is for theyears you don't have great players. [...] What you have to do is coach defense like you will never have great players. Coach so that when your first line players go down with an injury, your back-up guy can come in and not hurt you."
Other teams have tried to replicate the success of the 2012/2013 Seahawks LoB - including the Hawks themselves - and failed. I would argue that it was NOT great defense, but rather a collection of great players making up for the defense and getting away with a scheme that allowed them to be aggressive. Alex Rollins talks about the 49ers of 2017 & 2018 with Robert Saleh - who came from the Gus Bradly and Seattle defense and won a ring with the LoB - and how they had to change into a 2 high wide 9 defense:
Why the 49ers’ Defense stopped using the Seahawks’ Defensive scheme
While I don't want to over simplify everything, I would argue that - to this day - the 2 high defense which coordinates the run defense with the secondary with a single hole defender or staying in cover 2/4 and cover 1 bracket from Monte Kiffin to Vic Fangio and others has proven to be the true time tested scheme for successful defense over the single high + 8 in the box cover 1/3 scheme. We saw the 49ers give KC trouble for 3 and a half quarters in the Super Bowl and Tampa Bay dominate in 2020 with the same ideas.
Bringing this all back to Madden, I can do most of that in Madden 12 and 14(25). Especially with custom sliders + custom playbooks + team building based on positional ratings + managing expectations based on the limitations of the video game.
Agreed 100%.The shortcomings of the game trace back to online-competitive, IMO. I don't think the dev team will venture too far out of the comfort zone because of the exploits a revamped D could create.
In fact, it is far more than that. When I was at the Madden 11 community event, without dropping names, something was said to me which was logical and frustrating: (and I am paraphrasing) "We don't want players to have to be Peyton Manning to play offense." I essentially replied saying that this is what a simulation mode and difficulty settings should be for. I reminded them that their same publisher, EA, had literally just published Need For Speed Shift where they had hard core simulation racing settings for players who want a steering wheel and multiple monitor set up with racialist traction control, weather and track effects and so forth. They literally had casual mode where the game helped you with breaking and steering and dumbed down the AI and gave you the racing line on the screen with colors for speed and braking - and then everything in between that could be customized for the ideal experience. They put the effort in, and made a great game. there was, to me, zero excuse OTHER THAN budget and desire to do the same for Madden.
Regardless, EA Tiburon has made their decisions and so have the producers upstairs and the game is what it is.
Anything you want to share or ask about, I am willing to help. I just ask that, if you paly Madden 12 and/or 14(25), you don't jump to judgment an instead give feedback - especially with specific examples.Sorry, short on time.. Not glossing over the many points you made. You inspired me to give 12 another try. I'll check back in, and hope to continue this conversation.
To finish, as a preface before anyone says the classic line "The game should be realistic without settings changes" - I disagree and so does the video game industry. I mentioned racing games. I could mention flying games from Ace Combat to WWII flight simulator style games, they all have custom settings from casual to hard core and individual nobs to adjust to your personal desires.Last edited by PGaither84; 10-14-2021, 07:02 PM.Comment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
One teeny flaw.
05 had no jump/leap button for running back.
I liked 04 better because 05, the players got all bulky.
That's weird,, the Madden players got bigger and the ncaa players got smallerComment
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Re: The last Great Madden. Madden 05. A retrospective
I remember playing this game back in summer 2005.Comment
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