For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formations

[footballsimstrategy]

For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formations to use on offense
Subs:

Sim play calling

Looking for a logical system to choose formations

Don't want to choose formations randomly

Down and distance, field position, personnel, etc?



Since a lot of sim play calling is based on mixing it up how do you logically(not random) choose what formations to call ? This question is as much about when to use certain formations vs others. When I think of play-calling I think of series play-calling. Having a base play run you base play or a variation of the base and if they stop it then you can use another play in the series(that looks similar to the base play) to punish defense for stopping you base play. I think of formations similar.

I ask this question because they way madden playbooks on offense especially choosing certain formations to mix it up an d keep it "sim" I end up choosing formations more randomly then I would like to. So if i'm in I-formation normal in a certain situation I don't want to go to twins the next time just for mixing it up sake. I would like to have reason if possible.

Is it based on down and distance, field position, personnel, this is the only formation that has the play I want, etc?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

Everyone may give you different answers but my approach is this.

First decide on your base personnel. I usually use “11”(1 rb 1 te 3 wr). Some games I may change that based on matchups, for example may go more te or FB heavy if I look to dominate inside.

Next I decide my base set. That is simply the formation that gets used the most. That’s normally dice slot. It’s important that what you pick can do it all, run, short pass, intermediate pass, pa, etc. This set may house my go to play for multiple situations.

I may change it up based on matchups and how the game is unfolding. I have an extra wrinkle because my team is the Ravens so I can switch it up and trot out my pistol offense for a completely different look. If the pass rush is a problem I may do more shotgun.

My advice to everyone is this — don’t start with formations. Start with an identity and use that identity to build a custom playbook.

Make adjustments during the game. Your man corners are better than my WRs? Expect more stack and empty backfield base sets. Find mismatches and game plan ways to exploit them. But don’t select formations that give your offense away. If you ever only pass or run from a certain formation change that

[canes21]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

I agree with find your identity before anything else. Do you want to be a smash mouth 21 personnel team? Do you want to still be tun heavy, but spread the field out to open up lanes? Are you wanting to be balanced? There are so many options to choose from there at the beginning.

Figure out what type of team you want to be and then find the looks that match what you are wanting to be. Once I do that, I also make my play calls based off of personnel first and then what my goal is over the next few plays. If I know I want to take a deep shot on 2nd down, then I may call something on first that gets me into a 2nd and 5 type of deal so that if the deep shot fails I won't be stuck in a 3rd and long. If I make up my mind I am in 4 down territory on 1st down then I won't get caught making bad decisions on the fly trying to set something up.

Generally I go into a game with my set identity and my aim is to call the first possession or two catering to my best strengths and see how they slow it down if they do at all. Once I get a feel for the defense and how they will play me, my next possessions try and counter what they are doing and I try to find the weakness I can exploit.

For example, I tend to like running between the tackles more than I do running outside. However, if the opposing team is shutting that down, but I notice they lack speed at the LB spot, then I may start running more horizontally with stretches, outside zones, tosses, and even jet sweeps. If the DT is what is slowing me down then I need to start letting him in and just counter him with traps and whams.

I also tend to like to pass using PA more than not. I'm still stuck in the west coast days and I generally use west coast principles even if my looks are more modern. I will do a lot of passing off of PAs and hitting quick hitters. If the defense is playing up and man to counter a lot of that, then I begin bunching and tightening my looks to get more opportunities of natural picks and runs to occur and try to use crossers to take advantage of their strategy.

Basically, find your identity, find the looks that fir what you want, don't call plays one at a time, call a play with a purpose, to get X amount of yards, to set something up, to see how they play it, etc., and know how to counter what the likely counters to your scheme are.

[footballsimstrategy]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

Thanks for the replies so far. It sounds like to me:

Have identity > choose a play > choose a formation that has that play.

This is similar to what I have always tried to do. I remember hearing a coach say that "you call formations that allow you to run your best plays".

But don’t select formations that give your offense away. If you ever only pass or run from a certain formation change that

So would it be correct in saying that if you have a certain type of play(s) you want to call in a specific scenarios you need to have multiple formations that have that play in it along with other plays you run in that situation so your opponent can't guess what play is coming?

If so how do you choose which of the formations you choose that play? Is it random?

[PGaither84]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

I agree with what has been said, and if I may, I would like to help give a detailed reply.

Have an identity

More to the point, have a core run concept/scheme.

Please allow me to talk defense in order to talk offense. Monte Kiffin was a legendary defensive coach in the NFL. He gave a clinic in the late 80's while still working with the Vikings. In this clinic, which was transcribed and recorded into a PDF, you can find the following where he speaks on the importance of stopping the run and how they did it.







"You have to stop the run first."
"If you can't stop the run, teams will never pass."

Well, the same is true on offense. There is the expression, "You throw to score and you run to win".

Let us take the "way-back machine" in time to visit he legend himself, Vince Lombardi, shall we? In the clip below, he teaches the Power Sweep. Watch between 1:07 and 1:59 where, in his own words, he talks about the importance of having a staple play/concept/identity. He goes on to teach the Power Sweep, which is not as relevant as the main point we are making here.


<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uv4CXySXxCk" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Formations


I will quote Bill Walsh from his QB manual:

Formations should be used to place players in the best position to do their job. Formations can also be used to line up personnel in different spots to create mismatches with the defense.

Nothing more, nothing less.


NFL playbooks tend to follow a consistent structure, wherein they list the formations a team will use early in the playbook and later on will show plays/concepts with rules and how they look from different formations and against different defensive looks.


For example, SMASH. This is a core football concept which you will find in many formations in many playbooks, even when it is not named SMASH (though many are) as it might be the backside concept to compliment another play. Regardless, the point is that a team will teach Smash and use formations to give them an advantage for it to work.


What does this mean? How do I apply this?


1. Learn as much as you can about real football and real football concepts/plays.

2. Spend time in the lab (practice mode) learning the details of various playbooks and find one or more that you like.
3. Learn your audibles. Do not call a play which shows up as an audible from that formation... as you can always audible to it.
4. Usually, you come out with a pass where you want to beat cover 1 or cover 3 with the safety high in the middle of the field and are ready to beat that look.
5. If they come out with two safeties high and the middle open, feel free to kill to run (audible to run), or kill to something which beats that look.


NOTE: Good defenses will show one look pre-snap and roll to another look. For example, the Monte Kiffin play I began with shows a "Middle of Field Open" (MoFO) look, but rolls the Strong safety to the deep third and the Weak/Free safety is asked to fly and fill against any weak run action, contain a QB keeper, and flow to the curl/flat as the play develops. This allows the defense to try and stop the run with only 7 in the box by being fundamentally sound in their gap assignments.


Find concepts you like. Then find formations which help you execute those concepts.


My personal preference is the West Coast Zone Run scheme.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

Thanks for the replies so far. It sounds like to me:

Have identity > choose a play > choose a formation that has that play.

This is similar to what I have always tried to do. I remember hearing a coach say that "you call formations that allow you to run your best plays".



So would it be correct in saying that if you have a certain type of play(s) you want to call in a specific scenarios you need to have multiple formations that have that play in it along with other plays you run in that situation so your opponent can't guess what play is coming?

If so how do you choose which of the formations you choose that play? Is it random?

Yes, while I wouldn’t say you choose the formation randomly you also don’t want to overthink it.

One additional note: think concepts rather than plays

[MakaveliLPC]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

I agree with what has been said, and if I may, I would like to help give a detailed reply.

Have an identity

More to the point, have a core run concept/scheme.

Please allow me to talk defense in order to talk offense. Monte Kiffin was a legendary defensive coach in the NFL. He gave a clinic in the late 80's while still working with the Vikings. In this clinic, which was transcribed and recorded into a PDF, you can find the following where he speaks on the importance of stopping the run and how they did it.





"You have to stop the run first."
"If you can't stop the run, teams will never pass."

Well, the same is true on offense. There is the expression, "You throw to score and you run to win".

Let us take the "way-back machine" in time to visit he legend himself, Vince Lombardi, shall we? In the clip below, he teaches the Power Sweep. Watch between 1:07 and 1:59 where, in his own words, he talks about the importance of having a staple play/concept/identity. He goes on to teach the Power Sweep, which is not as relevant as the main point we are making here.


<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uv4CXySXxCk" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Formations


I will quote Bill Walsh from his QB manual:

Nothing more, nothing less.


NFL playbooks tend to follow a consistent structure, wherein they list the formations a team will use early in the playbook and later on will show plays/concepts with rules and how they look from different formations and against different defensive looks.


For example, SMASH. This is a core football concept which you will find in many formations in many playbooks, even when it is not named SMASH (though many are) as it might be the backside concept to compliment another play. Regardless, the point is that a team will teach Smash and use formations to give them an advantage for it to work.


What does this mean? How do I apply this?


1. Learn as much as you can about real football and real football concepts/plays.

2. Spend time in the lab (practice mode) learning the details of various playbooks and find one or more that you like.
3. Learn your audibles. Do not call a play which shows up as an audible from that formation... as you can always audible to it.
4. Usually, you come out with a pass where you want to beat cover 1 or cover 3 with the safety high in the middle of the field and are ready to beat that look.
5. If they come out with two safeties high and the middle open, feel free to kill to run (audible to run), or kill to something which beats that look.


NOTE: Good defenses will show one look pre-snap and roll to another look. For example, a classic cover 3 often looks like cover 2 before the snap, but one safety will roll to the middle while the other will go to the flat. Look at the first example at the top I gave from Monte Kiffin. They do just that, asking the weak safety to flat the flat and be the force man against weak side runs. This is how a good defense in real life tries to defend the run with only 7 in the box, and it works.


Find concepts you like. Then find formations which help you execute those concepts.


My personal preference is the West Coast Zone Run scheme.

That was awesome dude, thanks

[tetoleetd]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

i think you are completely overthinking it.



if you have a solid grasp of football and how it works, and you are not just a casual fan, you should be able to call a realistic game just based on that fact alone.



some teams line up in shotgun or empty sets all the time in all situations. some teams line up with 2 tight ends and pound the ball more often.



there is no real "sim way" to call plays as long as you arent just running the same plays all the time.



mix it up but play to the strengths of your team and try to exploit the weaknesses of your opponent, all while keeping down and distance and situation in mind.



there is no wrong way to do it as long as you arent being corny.

[steve115658]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

Man i just want to point out that the football analysis on this board has gone to a whole new level recently and i love it! Why i came on these boards in the first place is a. The way people disect madden and figure out how to make the game play best and b. people talk the strategy of the game and learn it and its just awesome to see. Also a compliment to madden how well this game plays when you realize how much goes into designing a football game schematically.

Just so glad to be (mostly) done the post release cycle of "oh look at this review by this youtuber" and back to football stuff. Cheers everyone

[footballsimstrategy]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

I agree with what has been said, and if I may, I would like to help give a detailed reply.

Have an identity

More to the point, have a core run concept/scheme.

Please allow me to talk defense in order to talk offense. Monte Kiffin was a legendary defensive coach in the NFL. He gave a clinic in the late 80's while still working with the Vikings. In this clinic, which was transcribed and recorded into a PDF, you can find the following where he speaks on the importance of stopping the run and how they did it.







"You have to stop the run first."
"If you can't stop the run, teams will never pass."

Well, the same is true on offense. There is the expression, "You throw to score and you run to win".

Let us take the "way-back machine" in time to visit he legend himself, Vince Lombardi, shall we? In the clip below, he teaches the Power Sweep. Watch between 1:07 and 1:59 where, in his own words, he talks about the importance of having a staple play/concept/identity. He goes on to teach the Power Sweep, which is not as relevant as the main point we are making here.


<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uv4CXySXxCk" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Formations


I will quote Bill Walsh from his QB manual:

Nothing more, nothing less.


NFL playbooks tend to follow a consistent structure, wherein they list the formations a team will use early in the playbook and later on will show plays/concepts with rules and how they look from different formations and against different defensive looks.


For example, SMASH. This is a core football concept which you will find in many formations in many playbooks, even when it is not named SMASH (though many are) as it might be the backside concept to compliment another play. Regardless, the point is that a team will teach Smash and use formations to give them an advantage for it to work.


What does this mean? How do I apply this?


1. Learn as much as you can about real football and real football concepts/plays.

2. Spend time in the lab (practice mode) learning the details of various playbooks and find one or more that you like.
3. Learn your audibles. Do not call a play which shows up as an audible from that formation... as you can always audible to it.
4. Usually, you come out with a pass where you want to beat cover 1 or cover 3 with the safety high in the middle of the field and are ready to beat that look.
5. If they come out with two safeties high and the middle open, feel free to kill to run (audible to run), or kill to something which beats that look.


NOTE: Good defenses will show one look pre-snap and roll to another look. For example, the Monte Kiffin play I began with shows a "Middle of Field Open" (MoFO) look, but rolls the Strong safety to the deep third and the Weak/Free safety is asked to fly and fill against any weak run action, contain a QB keeper, and flow to the curl/flat as the play develops. This allows the defense to try and stop the run with only 7 in the box by being fundamentally sound in their gap assignments.


Find concepts you like. Then find formations which help you execute those concepts.


My personal preference is the West Coast Zone Run scheme.

Thanks for the reply and great breakdown. To follow along with your example. Defensively I've usually ran a cover 3 defense and play a specialty coverage on 3rd down(ex: man on 3rd and short.) This article is pretty close to what I run(the Saban defensive section).

On defense I feel pretty comfortable. Generally I'd call a base cover 3 concept like cover3 sky on 1st. on 2nd down call another cover 3 concept depending on if its long or normal yardage situation. If it 2nd and 9 something like cover 3 buzz. If its 2nd and 5 maybe cover 3 match or zone blitz. On 3rd down some type of man or alternate coverage like cover 2/4 in long yardage situations.

As far as formation its easy on defense I just match up personnel and then choose a front that puts defenders in the gaps I want to defend.

One offense I have tried many different ways to call plays and I settled on a mix of box count reads and certain concepts for certain down and distances. But unlike defense I can't just choose a formation based on my opponents personnel and line players up to take away gaps. This is where I'm stuck I need a sound reason to call each formation. Not just well I want to run "play x" and its only found in "formation shotgun ace trips" so I have to run that formation.

I would like it to be more like "my opponent is running this defense or formation so I need to counter with shotgun ace trips formation because it gives me a better chance against his defense". Or I need to run formation shotgun doubles because it will give me more spacing and helps me to run this passing concept better.

Kinda of like this article. Ex how when they get single high look they choose ends over. Its not a random choice it was a deliberate counter to what to defense was doing.

[footballsimstrategy]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

Yes, while I wouldn’t say you choose the formation randomly you also don’t want to overthink it.

One additional note: think concepts rather than plays

Concepts is how I try to run my offense. Basically have certian concepts by down and distance and mix it up by choosing different variations of that concept in those sitations. My issue isn't as much about the concepts but the logically choosing formations without it being "lets choose this formation just because it has the play I like in it". Not saying you do this just what I'm thinking.

[footballsimstrategy]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

i think you are completely overthinking it.



if you have a solid grasp of football and how it works, and you are not just a casual fan, you should be able to call a realistic game just based on that fact alone.



some teams line up in shotgun or empty sets all the time in all situations. some teams line up with 2 tight ends and pound the ball more often.



there is no real "sim way" to call plays as long as you arent just running the same plays all the time.



mix it up but play to the strengths of your team and try to exploit the weaknesses of your opponent, all while keeping down and distance and situation in mind.



there is no wrong way to do it as long as you arent being corny.

I would say I probably am overthinking it. But I've been playing madden for a long time and little things like this is what keeps me interested. I like having a reason for everything I do when playing. So picking a specific formation at a specific time is one of them.

[stinkubus]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

If you are already comfortable with your personnel and concepts then when it comes to formations in Madden you want to look to either get better spacing for your routes or better angles for your run blockers. Having the ability to be multiple, especially in the run game, is also a very important consideration.

As a simple example in the passing game; there are tons of variations of Levels. Many of the best are available out of trips, but if you choose a formation where the receivers splits are too close they are going to run into one another often especially if the defense is successfully pressing. On the other hand if I space the field well that won't happen so much.

Sometimes other considerations, like which routes you have available on the back side, will take priority. Frequently these will be routes that aren't available through other plays - deep posts, deep outs, special fades, fade stops, etc.

You also want to make sure that everyone is lining up where they will perform best. Don't have a slow guy on the clear out by accident.

[footballsimstrategy]

Re: For those that play sim or are in a sim league how do you determine which formati

If you are already comfortable with your personnel and concepts then when it comes to formations in Madden you want to look to either get better spacing for your routes or better angles for your run blockers. Having the ability to be multiple, especially in the run game, is also a very important consideration.

As a simple example in the passing game; there are tons of variations of Levels. Many of the best are available out of trips, but if you choose a formation where the receivers splits are too close they are going to run into one another often especially if the defense is successfully pressing. On the other hand if I space the field well that won't happen so much.

This is the kind of thing I was looking for when I made the thread. My issue is knowing the specifics for each formation and when they are best used.

For example in general I've always heard offense is about attacking space. This is generally why spread sets(at least in real life) are so good because they force defenses to play in space and eliminate the amount of help a defender gets. Also, you could think of it as attacking gaps in the defense in the run game.

Compressed sets do the opposite and puts alot people close together but open up space horizontally. So generally IRL I like spread sets in the open field and compressed sets near the endzone where there is less vertical space. Now madden can be different year to year with this but that is my general principal.

Another principal I go by is what formation allows you to run that play best from. So if you want to run behind you all-pro tackle you might run power a lot. You can run power from many formations and personnel groups but generally its better from 2-back formations. So if I want to run power I would get in two back. The issue I have with this is when do I run power from I-form normal vs running from strong- I normal. You could say kick out block is faster in from strong I but, that doesn't tell when to run which formation other than picking one because I haven't picked it yet and I already picked the other. This is my problem.