The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 2022.

[asantead22]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

I have no problem with a few superheroes.



Barry Sanders was a super hero. Bo Jackson was. Jerry Rice was. Calvin Johnson was. Several others were NFL versions of super heroes.



I hadn't played Madden in years until I got 20 after playing fairly religiously for a decade starting with 1999 and getting into football gaming with 93/94 on Genesis, and superstars/x-factors are one of my favorite parts of the game. They create players who truly feel special.



They need continued work to balance them, but overall, they strike me as an excellent addition that make things more fun.



If/when 2K starts producing a sim game to truly compete with Madden, I hope they also find a way to create top players who feel special.

The bottom line is competition! I do not believe the best way to initiate this is with an arcade game! EA has screwed its fan base for 15 yrs! Madden has not taken huge steps over 2k5! In fact, 2k5 is still considered a better overall game than any version of Madden!
The problem with the Madden series has been the lack of EA listening to its fan base.
The Madde development team and the executive board puts in what they want instead of what the fans want!
An example would be the halftime show, Madden's halftime is pathetic compared to 2k5! Something as simple as the halftime show! Madden can not seem to get a damn halftime right!
2k basketball gets it! Although their gameplay has suffered recently, other areas such as Classic teams, AllTime Teams, my park,etc... are all there.EA has taken out things that attracted a vast amount of consumers to the game.
Some of us would like to pick it up and use favorite teams and players from the past against others, however unless you use Madden Ultimate you can't!
I feel with direct sim vs sim ( Ali vs Frazier) is the only way to do it! I feel having Ali (2k) box with a hand tied behind his back against Frazier( EA) is an unfair fight, but the industry needs it! The football genre has suffered too much from Don King (EA) enough!!! Bring back true competition instead of this circus match!



Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[mwjr]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

They achieved that in All Pro Football 2k8 with the abilities and the tier (gold, silver and bronze) system.

I would’ve gladly bought another iteration of APF2K. I was really hoping they’d make another one, adding a fully fictional franchise mode.

[The EVHL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

I played Madden 06, and it was crap. Yet Madden fans keep holding it and 12 up as examples of when Madden was great.

It always feels like all of this is born way more out of EA hate than a rational memory of 2K5 and 2K8, games I loved. But 2K is the game I started playing when a real sim football game, Front Page Sports FBPro, released FBPro 99, a game so bad it had to be recalled, and ended up killing the franchise.

2K is what I settled for. It wasn’t sim. It designed for kids, had terrible sim results, and ridiculously bad DB play. But it was fun H2H and I loved how 2K5 allowed you to download profiles of the teams you were going to play based on the plays your opponent used in past games, which made prepping for live games fun.

I am pretty excited to play whatever 2K releases. But some of these takes are cringe worthy. They come from the same types of folks that are responsible for there now just being one game per sport among basketball, hockey, and baseball.

The “winning” games were considered great, until their competitors were canceled. Suddenly, it became clear that sports gamers can only consider a game great if they have another to compare it to. The hate for NHL popped up quick, because EA. But now, the hate for 2K basketball and The Show is building. Without another game to rag on, they turn on the only game left, picking at its flaws, blowing small things out of proportion.

Sports gamers, by and large, seem incapable of just not playing a game they don’t like. They have to actually mock people that play and enjoy the game. It’s pathetic, to be honest.

Ummm no, EA hockey has always been considered to be an "arcade" offering and the 2k game had a good following of "hardcore" or "sim" players from 2k3-death. I won't talk about the other sports as I'm no expert in those, but I'll address the hockey part here because your post seems completely fueled by your own assumptions rather than your actual understanding of the history of hockey gaming and the two completely different demographics both games had following them. If your take on why the NHL series receives more and more hate is this far off, I feel like I should add this piece as I can only assume you aren't being very honest about some of these other sports titles and why people only hate EA "because EA."

Casual hockey fans loved EA's offering due to the skill stick and EASHL. They never once stated they loved the game because it resembled hockey flawlessly, or that the AI played a great game of hockey, or that teams played true to their identities. They loved an online game with friends that gave them ability to pull off fun dekes and win as a team. These people are the ones who continue to throw away money at HUT because the streamer-bros they follow rip packs 3 times a week in their face and shove the MTX's down their throats. They care about dekes and scoring 6-7 goals a game, even if it's the same move every time. They couldn't breakdown a breakout, a zone entry, a PP, or anything about the sport. These are the fans the tune-in for playoff hockey with the bros, yet know nothing about the sport. They don't care about sliders or anything the "sim" community would.

The hardcore community has always been biased towards 2k due to their in-depth slider offerings giving user's the ability to create their own meta (prior to NHL 16, the sliders available were severely lacking) run more advanced strategies, and 2k has always just been able to get the "feel" and "little things" of hockey right compared to EA. Sure, it wasn't smooth and definitely was the objectively worse video game, but that didn't stop the hardcore community form buying it, nor was it even considered to be less of a "sim" hockey game compared to EA. All you have to do it play 2k8-10 and watch how realistic the goalies play. They actually catch their edges, they get fooled be a deke once or twice but no more than that. They give up first shot goals that actually make sense and feel very "random" in a sense where getting to a certain spot isn't an almost guaranteed goal like the EA series has always been. As a real-life goalie, I can't begin to explain how amazingly cool that "randomness" was to experience, nor can I overstate just how incredible the work was on those goalies. 2k8 had the best goalies any hockey game has ever seen, and probably ever will see, because you can tell there was a deep understanding of the position and the sport that went into them.

Why you're now seeing the increase in "EA hate" when it comes to the NHL series is two-fold. First, the hardcore community is forced to either not play virtual hockey, or play EA's virtual hockey and see just how little they've progressed from an AI perspective. If one actually understands hockey and didn't care about online gaming, they would've never purchased an EA game till 2k died. EA had mundane, unimaginative offline experience due to their limited sliders and horrible AI. To start, their line strategies are the same 3 strategies they've had since like NHL 99. The worst part is, the AI still struggles to run these strategies in a realistic way, yet they haven't been changed in a literal 20 years. Their AI is not dynamic, meaning they won't screen the goalie if the puck goes high..heck, they won't even come dig the puck out of a pin if they're on the user's team. I'll just stop here cause I could write 50,000+ words on why offline NHL is nothing short of frustrating from a "sim" perspective.

The second part is the causal fans who enjoyed 09-15 (well, really only 09-12, then maybe 14) due to the skill stick and EASHL being a fun experience, are now seeing just how poor the online experience has been in this generation compared to last. The skill stick was nerfed, touch passing hasn't been the same since this new gen, more and more over-reaching animations have taken control away from the user, and more and more competitive 6s games have been decided by bad bounces than ever seen on the previous gen. Not to mention the new "World of CHEL" drop-in lobby that's totally killed the drop-in community as well as the "lobby" feature never returning from last-gen, and you're seeing a demographic once filled with EA lovers now turning on the game as well as this generation has been completely dedicated to tweaking the game for a select few streamers, pushing HUT down our throats, and a generally less fun online experience as a whole.

So no, the hate you see from the NHL community isn't limited to disgruntled hardcore fans. There's many casual fans who have also seen their online experiences never live up to their last-gen counterparts who have also started to attack EA every chance they get. This sudden attack on EA hockey that has just "happened because EA" as you say, couldn't be farther from the truth. I was a competitive 6s player from 09-18, and I can tell you that this generation of EASHL has been nothing short of a disaster. To start, NHL 15 omitted EASHL and they tried to cover this fact up till launch, no easy way for outside leagues to host games, captain delay plaguing 1.5 years of EASHL, cookie-cutter builds that all hover around 78 overall which has resulted in only 2-3 of the 12 classes ever being played, inconsistent servers that sometimes lead to goals not counting, terrible meta changes for the worse, and now the sudden addition of clown gear in online NHL has left a considerable amount to be desired in the online world.

The game just isn't as fun as it used to be online, and the game has only marginally improved it's offline experience from an AI perspective this entire generation (if it's even improved, it might be worse than NHL Legacy tbh). That's all they have to show in six whole years (including skipping porting 14 to "make sure 15 was solid") of development? Oh, and let's also not fail to mention the legends in 19 advertising scandal where they also tried to cover up the limitations of legends to launch. The NHL series has had two MASSIVE blunders where they tried deceiving their offline and online customers (once each respectively), and have failed to make the game more fun, immersive, or realistic in this entire generation. That's why there's a rapid increase of "EA hate" when it comes to the NHL series. People aren't just hating on the series to hate lol, that's just simply untrue.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

Right The more fun game saw its sales slide, and 2K canceled it. Now we are stuck with game that sold better and has the features sports gaming fans actually like.

I mean, you are making my point for me. Thank you.

[The EVHL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

Right The more fun game saw its sales slide, and 2K canceled it. Now we are stuck with game that sold better and has the features sports gaming fans actually like.

I mean, you are making my point for me. Thank you.

Well no. I actually was pointing out that people aren't hating the game because of EA, they're hating the game because the consumers have been purposely deceived twice this generation, and there's massive groups within the NHL community that haven't seen their game experience improve in an entire generation of hockey games (that's why I bolded that part...that's usually how forums work. You bold parts you're wanting to reply to). You also seem to blame the hardcore community for not keeping 2k afloat, but I'd argue most offliners who actually understand the sport bought 2k. It's not our fault that there's not many of us, but it surely wasn't us who didn't buy their games.

Stating that people hate NHL "because EA" implies that the game is near perfect and that the complaints are largely nitpicking. I just explained to you that there's some serious fundamental flaws with the game and that even casual fans (you know, the ones you claim EA caters to, and should cater to) are starting to turn sour due to how terrible the online experience has been this entire generation. Again, I mentioned a ton of examples of how EA has COMPLETELY dropped the ball this entire generation when it comes to online play, so that only adds to the amount of people who will willingly give EA a hard time about their NHL games.

So my point that I apparently need to literally write out is, people don't hate NHL games because EA makes them lol. People hate them because the experience continues to decline, the developers seem tone-deaf, and their company literally deceived two massive groups of users this generation which has left a very bad taste in the mouths of many current/would-be NHL gamers.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like.

But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with.

Now you hate on EA because they don’t make a game like 2K, whose game didn’t sell well enough to exist. The logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it.

But because you are a hockey fan, you are entitled to a sports game designed to your preference, even if it is not profitable to the people actually investing in the game.

You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed?

The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two.

People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made.

I like NHL 20 because Chel and Threes are a ton of fun, and play now is pretty great. But I’m “just a casual” so why should my opinion count, right. I should be embarrassed, right?

Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough.

Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody?

Me, if they made their game like 2K hockey, I would do the same thing I did with The Show and NBA 2K, move on and play something more fun.

If 2K football is is more fun than Madden, I’ll switch in a second. I rarely play more than one sports game at a time. I definitely preferred 2K football and baseball to the more popular games for those sports. I didn’t take to Madden for a decade after 2K got screwed. I kinda liked Madden 10, but pretty much hated every other release. But Madden 15 was the first game that was more fun than 2K5 or 2K8 for me.

How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you.

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

[capnlarge]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

I'm pretty sure NHL's sales have been steadily declining for a while.

I think a bunch of people bought 15 and dropped off the series because that game was a turd

[Swingking77]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

But I feel the timing of this is what brings up questions. If the non-simulation license has been up for grabs for years, then why wait now right before Madden's exclusive deal is almost up?

I really do believe that the NFL has suffered a great deal over the past 15 years as a result of the (largely false) CTE moral panic. People forget that the whole thing came out at the before last bargaining agreement, where retired players were lobbying for continuation of health coverage after playing. The NFL refused, and so all of a sudden you have people coming out of the woodwork and claiming that football = CTE.

Fast-forward, and the NFL's numbers have been in constant decline in terms of viewers and product value. Markets are collapsing where previously they were strong, etc. Couple all of this with the continued issues the league has had with PR from drugs and domestics, along with the nearly annual New England scandals, and its no wonder people think the league is a joke... Because it is. Despite what a lot of people believe because of marketing, Skygate 1 & 2 let the cat out of the bag; "Professional Football is Sports Entertainment"... They even lobbied several times in court to prove this very fact (once against the Jets fan post Spygate, and then again against American Needle).

So the reality is that the NFL isn't worth as much as it was over a decade ago. At this point, the NFL is just happy that "someone" is still making NFL games... They don't care who it is. As such, they've no doubt been soliciting tenders and putting feelers out, but in reality, nobody is buying. Why would they? Invest millions to sell 9 million games? I don't think so.


Right now, the NFL is locked into the EA contract. But that doesn't include "non-sim football", which is just a loophole the NFL's lawyers are exploiting to test the market and see what they can get out of people. That being said, I'm sure having signed such a long term deal with EA was a venture which has caused a least some buyers remorse from the NFL. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to discover that the focus on MUT was a big part of it. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that the NFL probably didn't profit much, if anything, from the MUT transactions as it wasn't even a "thing" when the initial deals were made out (though NFLPA probably did).

Or why not just wait for the exclusive license to open up for bidding?

Because luck favours the prepared. Do you really want to leave things up to the last minute? Also, do you really want another studio making a crap game because they weren't able to develop at least certain aspects of it prior to all of this? A 7 v 7 game still allows for the development of passing, running, blocking, catching, tackling, etc., without. Now if it fails, it's easily deflected and dismissed by all parties by claiming "it wasn't a SIM game". The risk in here is on 2K though, as EA did a great job of implementing ALL of their innovations the last time (hit/juke stick being the major one, proper hot routes, along with presentation style... They still didn't manage the various aspects of the defensive game though). But time will tell how it all plays out... But if "we" want variation from EA, we'd better sell out hard on that other game and send a message.

The best case is that Madden really steps it up now. Hopefully Madden sees it as competition and rises to occasion. Since start of 7th generation, Madden has had tendency to re-invent the wheel and strip everything down. Madden 06 when they did a full overhaul to next gen and took years to recover. Then in Madden 13 when they stripped down game modes for Connected Franchise. Madden is in need of a positive overhaul in gameplay and game modes.

It's because as a studio, they've always been uninspired. EA "stepping it up" means waiting to see what others have done well, then taking it for themselves, often with mixed results (PES features now found in FIFA, NBA 2K features which had found their way into NBA Live games, etc.). The only problem is that with the NFL, there are no others and EA has been left to it's own devices. The closest that EA has gotten to a perfect football game was NCAA '14... But that franchise died too, and unfortunately, nearly none of the positives from it made it into future Madden games. Not to start an aside debate, but I've always felt like if they could meld everything from Head Coach, NCAA dynasty mode, and Madden Franchise, they just might make a great and complete football game. But not having any competition means they never had to... So we never did. Instead, we got MUT, which I refuse to play because 1) I can't afford it, 2) I already bought the game, 3) it has always been juvenile to me (like trading cards) and isn't why I play sports games (a sim experience on equal footing as everyone else).

[Swingking77]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like. But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with.

That last part is false, it was profitable to make, but exclusivity made it futile. Just to be clear as those are two different statements.

Now you hate on Madden [...] the logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it.

A perfect statement and potentially the truest statement that applies in this very scenario... I never understood paying $100 for a game I knew I was going to hate. It never made sense to me, and based on the lack of innovation, it was obvious it was all in vein. 1000% agree with this logic.

You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed?

But back into fallacy we go... 2K didn't fail because it was bad. It failed because of exclusivity. And as far as changing is concerned, EA changed (stole a metric **** ton of stuff from 2K) as a result; hit stick, presentation style, announcing style, and they even tried (and failed) to implement a lot of the defensive adjustments, as well as franchise mode, as well as stats tracking of 2K. They changed a ton of stuff and anyone who compares Madden '05, to Madden '06 on the same generation can see it and knows it.

The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two.

People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made.

100% spot on again here... I'm the same way.

Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough.

Well again, this gets kind of gray because it's the only football game out there... Not the only NFL game, but the ONLY football game. If football is your thing, you're either left with Madden or nothing. So it becomes a bit of a muddy situation. It still doesn't excuse people who buy to bitch.

Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody?

... In reality though, all things being the same, functional sliders that actually impact how the game plays can achieve a lot in this regard. But no matter what, the framework will remain the same. Play experience can somewhat be changed (ironically as is the case in the NHL series which offers SIM settings and Casual settings), but the bear bones of the game won't. If that's the issue people have (bear bones framework) then it makes zero sense for them to pay for it.

How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you.

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

This one is 50/50... The visual guys drive me f'ing nuts. We all know the type, those who have an issue with OCD who fetishize certain aspects of the game like "Mahomes has exactly 4 red cleats, 3 yellow, and 1 white... why isn't that in there" in like five subsequent posts, despite the fact that the game makes him throw the ball with his face while his arms are flailing around all loosy goosy... As though proper cleat colour would make the game playable or "improve the experience that much".

That being said, there is a certain give and take which can occur I believe. And FIFA is a really good example of that on most accounts. The devs generally have a really good relationship with the fans and do try to implement a lot of the things that fans ask for in terms of playability... But there is a give and take. Some ****** who spams cleat references, or the slightest colour variance (another of my peeves "It's supposed to be salmon pink, you have just plain pink") won't get as much ear time as someone who brings forward a really good suggestion... Though this has been changing a bit as of late and that franchise is also becoming stale. Oddly, it started at about the same time that FUT started to come out... Not sure if there is a connection there.

But then again, the FIFA devs are mainly working with Europeans, where as Madden's are dealing with Americans, I suspect largely from the South, who based on their posts are pretty stupid and/or entitled... And who react pretty harshly when their stupidity is insulted. So that might also be the difference.

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

So true... A true story. We had a family member who had developed both dementia and Alzheimers. One day they were left alone for a few minutes and decided they were thirsty, so they went into the fridge and found a bottle of salad dressing. Took a swig, gagged and put it back, only come back and do it again... and again... and again. Only once the care giver came back did they see that the whole bottle had been drank. Our relative then got sick and puked it all back up because of the acidity and the oil.

And this, to your point, is what SIM Madden players do every... single... year.

[kennylc321]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

See this is my thing.

Like all of you, I am ready to see another football game. I don't subscribe to the "I hate EA; EA has ruined my life" mantra that many of you do. For me, it is simpler... I prefer options. Had 2k won the exclusive license 15 years ago, I have no doubt we would all hate 2k. Back when there were two games, when I got bored with one, I played the other.

Anyway, many of you, in your excitment to have another game, are overlooking the "sim" aspect. I highly suspect that this game is going to be like Head Coach... you will have your real teams and players and all of that but you're not actually playing the game...

Is that going to be good enough for you?

[ijumpedthegun]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

See this is my thing.

Like all of you, I am ready to see another football game. I don't subscribe to the "I hate EA; EA has ruined my life" mantra that many of you do. For me, it is simpler... I prefer options. Had 2k won the exclusive license 15 years ago, I have no doubt we would all hate 2k. Back when there were two games, when I got bored with one, I played the other.

Anyway, many of you, in your excitment to have another game, are overlooking the "sim" aspect. I highly suspect that this game is going to be like Head Coach... you will have your real teams and players and all of that but you're not actually playing the game...

Is that going to be good enough for you?

Is it going to be good enough for me? That's my dream.

[ijumpedthegun]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

You'll have to explain to me one more time but... why are you so personally offended that other people like doing different things in video games than you?

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

You'll have to explain to me one more time but... why are you so personally offended that other people like doing different things in video games than you?

I don’t mind doing people doing different things. But I draw the line at requiring people to provide those other things if they view it as either not profitable, or just not in line with what they want to create.

You all act like EA is unaware of all this stuff, but I know you know better. If you complain about an aspect of a sports game for three years in a row, you just don’t get that they don’t care. And all EA wants to do is make money.

If they needed the demographic here to buy the game, they would do things differently. They don’t need us to buy the game. They would like to manage us, though, to keep us from crapping on the game publicly in an effort to force them to change their priorities.

But that is an immature way to deal with something like that. You can see that they only want to make money, and they don’t want to cater to this demographic. Regardless of truth, they believe you are asking them to make the game you want for less profit than they will make by making the game they want.

That’s your right to ask. But it’s a really jerk thing to do to anyone. And you aren’t just doing it to EA, you are also doing it to all the gamers that would have bought the game, but won’t if you get your way.

Maybe you believe in the undeniable truth that that your vision is more profitable. But, since EA is the one with skin in the game, THAT’S what you have to prove to them. And they are a million more times more committed to the true answer. They spend a ton of money on focus groups and researching telemetry data.

[The EVHL]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like.

But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with.

Now you hate on EA because they don’t make a game like 2K, whose game didn’t sell well enough to exist. The logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it.

But because you are a hockey fan, you are entitled to a sports game designed to your preference, even if it is not profitable to the people actually investing in the game.

You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed?

The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two.

People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made.

I like NHL 20 because Chel and Threes are a ton of fun, and play now is pretty great. But I’m “just a casual” so why should my opinion count, right. I should be embarrassed, right?

Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough.

Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody?

Me, if they made their game like 2K hockey, I would do the same thing I did with The Show and NBA 2K, move on and play something more fun.

If 2K football is is more fun than Madden, I’ll switch in a second. I rarely play more than one sports game at a time. I definitely preferred 2K football and baseball to the more popular games for those sports. I didn’t take to Madden for a decade after 2K got screwed. I kinda liked Madden 10, but pretty much hated every other release. But Madden 15 was the first game that was more fun than 2K5 or 2K8 for me.

How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you.

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

Bolded what I'll reply to. Boy was that an exhausting list of assumptions and generalizations I had to read though, but that was to be expected...

1st: Never hated on EA because it's not 2k, I've hated on EA for their unique product not being up to par. Having stated that I've always bought both, I clearly have found pros and cons in both games for many years. EA was always my online game, but when you have net-code issues over the span of two consecutive years where your online performance was greatly impacted on the competitive scene due to it, then yes, I'm going to give them negative feedback. And again, I'm going to give them negative feedback for deceiving the community about omitting EASHL from a game and not making that information available till mere weeks before release.

2nd: I've bought almost every NHL game imaginable. I've made long posts about how NHL Hitz Pro is arguably the greatest hockey game ever made. I'm not "entitled" to a game of my preference, but since my preference starts and ends at "decent representation of the sport" I tend to always have a game to play. I will continue to provide feedback and stand-up for people who continue to provide constructive feedback, and I will always encourage everyone to list their pros and cons to sports games, as the more feedback the better. I will never be bullied by people like you into not speaking my mind, not asking for improvements, and not engaging with people who also have opinions on what would make the game better. Just because I'm not in-love with NHL like you, doesn't mean I should be slandered, bullied, and shouted-down on a forum designed to discuss sports video games.

3rd: Here's your unverified "fact" you like to bring up about the "sim" community whenever they call you out for trying to bully people into being quiet. I've never claimed to get zero enjoyment out of this game, but I sure do run into a lot of immersion-breaking scenarios that have existed for years. I will continue to provide feedback on those scenarios, and will continue to get enjoyment out of this game as well. These aren't mutually exclusive. I will also continue to discuss with other forums members who notice these lingering issues and discuss how awesome it would be if they were ever fixed. Like anyone who is passionate about something, there will be some harsh criticism when the same problems are never addressed. Providing harsh criticism does not equal hate, nor does it disqualify me from still finding the game worthy of a purchase. I also find it rich that the "sim" community is the only one with an agenda. So, you like the modes built for you in the game, everyone else doesn't get to provide any feedback on the modes built for them? Are offline gamemodes not built for everyone? I mean, they give 4 different presets ranging from "Arcade" to "Full-Sim" so it looks like offline game modes are built for me, you, and everyone in-between right? Are you sure you don't have an agenda here? Because there's a pretty noticeable pattern in the way you approach people who don't agree with you...you rope them into the "sim" community, and call them a "toxic complainer" just because they have the audacity to provide feedback on a non-perfect game which you've admitted all sports games are lol. Talk about an agenda...

4th: I've never tried to discredit your opinion of the game due to your causal following of hockey. I have openly called you out for generalizing the sim community for showing frustrations based on our ability to see flaws in the AI that you may not (and you do this in every single sub-forum on this site. You can't stand that people don't agree with you and you're quick to suggest that passionate people should give up video games for good, simply because they don't find the game as amazing as you). When you see the sim community discussing these legacy issues, it feels nothing short of a flame or a troll to pop-in and say "why'd you buy it then? If you bought it, you can't complain. They don't care about you and shouldn't so just go away and whine on your own" when you could easily ignore the post and live your life, just as you suggest other's do when they don't find a flawed game 100% flawless like you. I find your tone to be arrogant and dismissive, and I take exception to your combative approach to people you've labeled as "sim" just because we like to give feedback on what would make our experience better, like every single other demographic openly does. Why can't we discuss what we find lacking? Why do you take that as a personal insult?

5th: I don't think a "fully" custom experience has to be a "myth" for much longer. I mean, we already have custom sliders in the game, wouldn't it be great if we could use those online in private matches/lobbies? Seems like that'd solve a ton of issues for every demographic, no? Also, why wouldn't that be the goal of sports games? Sports are inherently subjective which is why every single game that offers sliders has so many different slider offerings. Lastly, why would you want this to be a myth if you didn't have an agenda? "logical" people (thanks for calling me illogical by the way, you're just so down to Earth) would see that the more a game experience can be customized, the more enjoyable the game experience will be for all parties. Seems like you have a grudge against this mythical "sim" community everyone who doesn't agree with you is part of. I just want every demographic to be able to speak their mind, unlike you.

6th: If NHL is a game that I find to be the most fun despite it's flaws, then I will continue to play it. I will also continue to provide feedback. Maybe I'm overly-optimistic, but I love interacting with the developers and other community members, as staying quiet has never gotten anyone anything. Again, I'm not going to let someone bully me out of buying a game I like, or discussing a game I like, or providing feedback for a game I like just because I don't like it as much as you.

7th: I don't need a game completely catered to me. Again, they've made some great animation improvements that I found to be worthy of a release (19 skating/hitting, 20 goalie deflections/shot animations). When I put over 500 hours into the game a year, little features like goalie deflections goes a long way when it comes to getting enjoyment out of a game. Unlike you, I don't find my opinion to be the most valuable opinion on the internet. I don't believe developers or marketing teams care about me personally. I don't have to find a game flawless to be worhty of a purchase, nor will my purchase disqualify me from discussing legacy issues and areas that need improvement.

8th: If you think only "sim" crowds in sports games are toxic, then you have a server bias/grudge towards the "sim" community and you need to take a step back and approach these forums in a more objective way. This paragraph clearly showed your bias and agenda. Thank you for showing the world how quickly you generalize and attack people who don't agree with you.

9th: Being a developer doesn't mean you understand the sport better than people who play, study, or coach it lol. Most developers would probably admit they aren't "experts" but that they love the sport and are up for the challenge of creating a good game. This had to be one of most laughably stupid statements I've ever read, but because I'm a good guy, I'll partially agree with this paragraph. There's no reason devs should cater to non-constructive complainers. Having a constructive discussion doesn't make someone a complainer though, and that's where you get it wrong. You conflate the two because of your heavy bias.

TL;DR: You have an irrational hate for people who disagree with you, and I'm sick of reading your posts filled with generalizations, assumptions, and bias that continuously derail threads. You are a troll.

[seaside24]

Re: The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 20

I'm just glad we will finally have more than one option in terms of football games.

Always enjoyed the 2k games just as much if not more than Madden.