Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

[Granbyroll]

I sat down the other day and played all the ufcs. All of them have vast improvements over the last. But there does seem to be a loss in responsiveness.

UFC 2 had very responsive denials. I attribute this to the denial windows. But what do I know😂. But when players transitioned I wasn't constantly questioning my reaction time. It made sense. I can understand side control needing a nerf. But each time I strike they receiving full ga makes no sense.

The same goes for top mount. Its very hard to deny in top mount even with full ga. Posture up is hard to deny. And when you do posture up its to easy to be swept and there's no impact momente and its hard to get damage off.

UFC 3 had slightly more responsive denials then 4 but less then UFC 2. But it had undeniable takedowns that required skill to get and you could effortlessly combo into a takedown or clinch attempts. In UFC 2 and UFC 3 you could get a takedown off of a hit stun much easier. These concepts seem virtually non existent in UFC 4 unless its off a jab. The jab is the only thing you can combo into a takedown from. In the clinch it feels like the same story.

I do enjoy the chain wrestling even if I don't understand some aspects like the turns and chaining into power singles and doubles and backturns. I just think the game needs a few slight tweaks to be legendary. I enjoy the career mode. The only thing it needs is interactive press conferences pre and post fight.

[Good Grappler]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

Didn’t read the whole thing, just read the title and immediately agreed, liked your post, and came to reiterate how crucial this is.

Going from a punch to a takedown attempt should be no less fluid than going from a punch to another punch.

As it is now, there is a clear, definitive, obvious pause between a combination and a takedown attempt *(with one partial exception, see below)*. It should not be that way.

The takedown system in the game right now only allows for reactive, or “opportunistic” shots. Think GSP, old school Mendes, Alexander Gustafson. Basically, you need to be patient, setting it up with movement and defense... then you try to time the shot right as the opportunity presents itself.

Now there’s nothing wrong with this - it’s a realistic strategy and I believe it’s reflected quite well in-game.

The problem is that this is NOT the only strategy fighters adhere by. A massive part of offensive wrestling - and thus the MMA gameplay as a whole - is totally missing.

**The most fluid strike —> TD sequence in the game right now is the jab to power single leg (basically just throw the jab - lead body hook combo, but hold the input for the body hook). Ironically, the fastest sequence into a TD is actually a power TD. Go figure.

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

I know some of the GCs have advocated for combos into takedowns .

I have no doubt that it will be added in time.

Sent from my Nokia 2.4 using Operation Sports mobile app

[MeowingForVengeance]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

I've also been feeling like denials are very unresponsive. I don't have the greatest reflexes, so I expect to be late on some, but I have a much harder time denying grapple transitions than I did in UFC 3.

Nothing wrong with my controller, and I play on a gaming monitor with 1ms response time, so it's not TV lag or whatever the proper term is. But I have been playing on PS4 and thus have been stuck at 30fps.

Getting a Series S in a couple days and hoping 60fps animations will help at least make transitions easier to see and deny, but I understand the game's not going to run at a 'true' 60fps.

[ryangil23]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

Grappling is simply unplayable if you’re on the original PS4/Xbox. In ufc 3 I could just about manage without the PS4 pro and 1ms monitor. I could still get into the top 100 but this game makes it impossible to grapple without it.

Even with the monitor and PS5/PS4 pro you still have to be pretty quick when denying posture ups and denying some takedowns. Some takedowns are unstoppable if it’s from a good wrestler even without grapple advantage as well.

[Granbyroll]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

With how well the devs responded before I hope this would have garnered a response too. Still - great job guys.

[BigFan]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

I think the issue is largely the new control scheme.
1. They mapped Takedowns to a strike, which in itself is limiting to setting up TD’s with strikes.
2. It’s also a button hold, which delays the TD attempt.

These decisions are completely baffling to me. It’s not near impossible to time a TD in between your opponents combos as in UFC 2 & 3. Fixing these alone would go a long way to dealing with the endless stamina pressure fighter meta.

TD’s are mainly effective when out of range in this game.
I wish they’d give us the option to remap the takedown to the Dpad or something else.
A legacy option for TD’s & TD defence would be great.
But even if that was fixed, we’d just have easier access to the horrible ground game which needs complete rework

[xtremeba1000]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

Grappling is simply unplayable if you’re on the original PS4/Xbox. In ufc 3 I could just about manage without the PS4 pro and 1ms monitor. I could still get into the top 100 but this game makes it impossible to grapple without it.

Even with the monitor and PS5/PS4 pro you still have to be pretty quick when denying posture ups and denying some takedowns. Some takedowns are unstoppable if it’s from a good wrestler even without grapple advantage as well.

I’m 80 in the world on quick fight with 2800 wins in 3200 fights but if I face someone with a monitor they can deny every single fake and transition I attempt. It makes me not want to play ranked because I know I’ll lose to serious players with monitors. It sucks because I use my Xbox to watch Netflix and movies in my living room so I don’t wanna move my Xbox just for this game.

[Good Grappler]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

I’m 80 in the world on quick fight with 2800 wins in 3200 fights but if I face someone with a monitor they can deny every single fake and transition I attempt. It makes me not want to play ranked because I know I’ll lose to serious players with monitors. It sucks because I use my Xbox to watch Netflix and movies in my living room so I don’t wanna move my Xbox just for this game.

This is the whole flaw with a grappling system that relies on “denials”. Especially when those denials are extremely OP - rewarding stamina and “grapple advantage” (which needs to go ASAP) - and can contribute directly to the end of the fight.

Like in this example, it’s just disgusting to even think about. I’ve been there so many times. Absolutely gross that it’s even possible for such a situation to take place on this game. “My opponent can deny all my transitions so I can’t do anything once it’s on the ground”. Like, what on earth... that should not be a sentence anyone ever says.

Not only are denials ludicrously easy... they reward automatic reversals, and stamina differentials which effectively end the match. So in your example, where your opponent is just denying everything... you have to sit idly doing nothing, because transitioning will lose the match.

And the worst part is that this is what the entire meta evolves around. We all know denials are super easy, and we all know they’re extremely punishing. So the entire grappling meta is evolved around trying to bypass your opponent’s denials by flicking the analog stick to make it LOOK like you’re transitioning, hoping they deny it... allowing a safe transition afterwards.

Is that even vaguely resemblant of real life? Do fighters pretend to transition one way, only to go another direction? Does faking a transition really make their opponent commit all their attention towards blindly focusing on ONE thing - utterly surrendering their ability to defend ANY other attack? It’s like they applied the same logic of striking feints to transitions.

Not to mention the actual “feel” of this playstyle, physically speaking. It’s so frantic, jumpy... reflex based. That’s not how grappling should FEEL. Look at Makhachev vs Dober. I didn’t see jumpiness. I didn’t see Makhaechev frantically react to each transition with a “denial”. I saw Makhachev squeezing, holding, and shutting down transitions via good positioning.

We shouldn’t need to frantically react to each and every transition/fake our opponent attempts. It’s way too reflex-based... it feels like we’re playing a shooter. Grappling should be more of a constantly engaged game; holding, shifting, turning. Frantic explosions (and corresponding controller inputs which represent such a dynamic) should be reserved for reversals, attempts to escape, etc.

I can’t even imagine being a developer for this game, seeing/feeling how the grappling “feels” in the early stages of development, and thinking “yeah this is great”. I especially can’t imagine seeing how the meta shaped up in live gameplay and STILL thinking “yup this is immersive. We got it right”.

And the worst part is this grappling system has been in place for THREE CONSECUTIVE ITERATIONS NOW. They’ve been using this system since EA UFC 2! So there’s either been an active effort to IGNORE the problems with the grappling, or a startlingly high level of obliviousness. Either way I’ve lost all faith in EA’s ability to get the grappling right.

And what really needs to be said, reiterated time and time again... as each new game seemingly REGRESSES in the grappling department... is that UFC Undisputed 3 had it right. They had more positions, more control within those positions, and more abilities to navigate between said positions. Ground and pound had more options, offensively and defensively. The cage was more involved in wrestling and BJJ. Strikes and TDs flowed seamlessly.

And most importantly - it was immersive, and the meta wasn’t corny or repetitive (assuming a patch was released to address punchflick and other minor reversal based exploits). You actually felt like you were squeezing or “holding” a position. There was no such thing as “my opponent denies everything so I can’t do anything”. You could work off your back all day, elbowing them bloody, with like fifty different transitions from full guard alone. You didn’t have or need the “auto reversals” EA uses, because you had so much control over your fighter, you could do whatever you want. You felt like you had full control over the every movement of your fighter’s body - without lengthy animations, automatic functions, and forced scenarios.

[Granbyroll]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

This is the whole flaw with a grappling system that relies on “denials”. Especially when those denials are extremely OP - rewarding stamina and “grapple advantage” (which needs to go ASAP) - and can contribute directly to the end of the fight.

Like in this example, it’s just disgusting to even think about. I’ve been there so many times. Absolutely gross that it’s even possible for such a situation to take place on this game. “My opponent can deny all my transitions so I can’t do anything once it’s on the ground”. Like, what on earth... that should not be a sentence anyone ever says.

Not only are denials ludicrously easy... they reward automatic reversals, and stamina differentials which effectively end the match. So in your example, where your opponent is just denying everything... you have to sit idly doing nothing, because transitioning will lose the match.

And the worst part is that this is what the entire meta evolves around. We all know denials are super easy, and we all know they’re extremely punishing. So the entire grappling meta is evolved around trying to bypass your opponent’s denials by flicking the analog stick to make it LOOK like you’re transitioning, hoping they deny it... allowing a safe transition afterwards.

Is that even vaguely resemblant of real life? Do fighters pretend to transition one way, only to go another direction? Does faking a transition really make their opponent commit all their attention towards blindly focusing on ONE thing - utterly surrendering their ability to defend ANY other attack? It’s like they applied the same logic of striking feints to transitions.

Not to mention the actual “feel” of this playstyle, physically speaking. It’s so frantic, jumpy... reflex based. That’s not how grappling should FEEL. Look at Makhachev vs Dober. I didn’t see jumpiness. I didn’t see Makhaechev frantically react to each transition with a “denial”. I saw Makhachev squeezing, holding, and shutting down transitions via good positioning.

We shouldn’t need to frantically react to each and every transition/fake our opponent attempts. It’s way too reflex-based... it feels like we’re playing a shooter. Grappling should be more of a constantly engaged game; holding, shifting, turning. Frantic explosions (and corresponding controller inputs which represent such a dynamic) should be reserved for reversals, attempts to escape, etc.

I can’t even imagine being a developer for this game, seeing/feeling how the grappling “feels” in the early stages of development, and thinking “yeah this is great”. I especially can’t imagine seeing how the meta shaped up in live gameplay and STILL thinking “yup this is immersive. We got it right”.

And the worst part is this grappling system has been in place for THREE CONSECUTIVE ITERATIONS NOW. They’ve been using this system since EA UFC 2! So there’s either been an active effort to IGNORE the problems with the grappling, or a startlingly high level of obliviousness. Either way I’ve lost all faith in EA’s ability to get the grappling right.

And what really needs to be said, reiterated time and time again... as each new game seemingly REGRESSES in the grappling department... is that UFC Undisputed 3 had it right. They had more positions, more control within those positions, and more abilities to navigate between said positions. Ground and pound had more options, offensively and defensively. The cage was more involved in wrestling and BJJ. Strikes and TDs flowed seamlessly.

And most importantly - it was immersive, and the meta wasn’t corny or repetitive (assuming a patch was released to address punchflick and other minor reversal based exploits). You actually felt like you were squeezing or “holding” a position. There was no such thing as “my opponent denies everything so I can’t do anything”. You could work off your back all day, elbowing them bloody, with like fifty different transitions from full guard alone. You didn’t have or need the “auto reversals” EA uses, because you had so much control over your fighter, you could do whatever you want. You felt like you had full control over the every movement of your fighter’s body - without lengthy animations, automatic functions, and forced scenarios.

Undisputed 3 had a complex ground game but very very simple to control. Up on the stick for major transitions. Down on the stick for minor transitions. There was inherent benefits to both. I think its not so much the mechanics fully in the game as it is a lack of minor transitions.

When EA bought yukes what happened to all the mocap from the undisputed games. Does it still exist? Can any of it be used? Is it compatible with the current engine? I just think its not a bad idea or an expensive one to use what you can.

As far as subs go - stamina doesn't matter at all on the ground. You can get a rear naked choke with full stamina. When I played ufc 3 stamina and subs felt like they made more sense.

As a grappler myself I dont feel immersed by the ground game. You don't just shove all your weight one way in real life and get half guard. There are lots of small things you have to do to work yourself to another position. This is represented by minor transitions. The D-pad and left stick aren't used at all on the ground. Maybe in UFC 5 this can be a possibility.


I'm not a yukes fan boy. I enjoyed ea mma as well. Both games had a better ground game then the current version. I understand covid probably through a monkey wrench in things. But this game wasn't ready for release in my opinion and still isn't.

For a guy named granbyroll imagine my frustration at only enjoying the striking. I grew up on ea games. Madden was suppose to be a true simulation of what football was. It taught you real football concepts. I hope someday that EA UFC can accomplish the same thing. EA has the talent with people like skynet. But the ground and the clinch must be looked at with some serious humility if its ever to improve.


The clinch from eas previous iterations were easier IMHO for casuals to grasp. Every time I have couch battles all my non martial arts friends despise the clinch game. They ask if I have UFC 3 or undisputed 3. I like the idea of takedowns being stopped with high or low block. But where it fails as far is skill is it doesn't convey the choices properly.


Is it a level change? Is it a jab? Is it a takedown. The takedown feints need serious work. They don't sell a takedown and even if a player bites you can't fluidly feint takedowns into strikes like you can feint strikes into other strikes. I should be able to fluidly feint a takedown into an overhand and a jab into a double leg. My solution would be move taunts to another input and have the dpad be for takedowns.or maybe have r2 and the dpad be for taunts and l2 and the dpad be for takedowns. Or click the left stick for takedowns. There has to be another input that would work. I despise throwing body punches and shooting only to be koed for something I wasn't even going for.

[TheUFCVeteran]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

Undisputed 3 had a complex ground game but very very simple to control. Up on the stick for major transitions. Down on the stick for minor transitions. There was inherent benefits to both. I think its not so much the mechanics fully in the game as it is a lack of minor transitions

Just wanted to say that up and down for major/minor transitions was only for amateur controls. Pro controls used the traditional Undisputed system, quarter circle for a minor transition and a semi circle for a major transition. It also allowed you to fake transitions, whereas on amateur, you couldn’t.

[Abstrakt fists]

Re: Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

Just wanted to say that up and down for major/minor transitions was only for amateur controls. Pro controls used the traditional Undisputed system, quarter circle for a minor transition and a semi circle for a major transition. It also allowed you to fake transitions, whereas on amateur, you couldn’t.

It was the fakes and the undeniable transitions that made it so much more immersive. Even against the best ground players you knew you could set up a transition by out thinking them.

The current game there is no strategic chess match. You just hope you don’t get denied. If you do your only option is to wait a second and try again. No setting it up, you can fake but the twenty second animation just lets them deny the fake and the transition, then you have no stamina. You need at least a Rock, Paper, Scissors type scenario. Right now it’s just rock, paper.