Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

[Playmakers]

This is a Fantastic read BTW

https://venturebeat.com/2021/06/17/how-madden-21s-ai-makes-better-use-of-nfl-next-gen-stats/

1st off I'm a off line player and prefer playing vs the CPU. In recent years the CPU AI simply hasn't reacted on the field the way most of us would like.

Thank about all the hours every year we have to spend editing CPU QB's to behave properly or have to wait on a patch to fix the issue....

Wouldn't you agree?

EA had something similar to Next Gen stats in NBA Live called Player DNA (Synergy) if I'm not mistaken which was supposed to bring NBA Live Player tendencies to life so that each Player would perform and react differently on the court.

Needless to say I think that was all a smoke screen because Live IMO never truly felt like Player DNA/Synergy was the backbone of gameplay because it was fighting against the actual player ratings side of the game which really dictated gameplay as opposed to Synergy.

Fast Forward to Madden and these comments from Clint Oldenburg makes me worry that Next Gen Stats might not truly change the gameplay in Madden the way I was hoping it would especially for OL/DL play

Madden NFL 22 will have improvements to catching, tackling, and blocking. Tiburon uses Next Gen Stats for player movement and tendencies, Madden designer Clint Oldenburg said in a clarification email. “So that data will have an indirect impact on the types of interactions that play out based on the speed, acceleration, and momentum of the players entering the interaction,” Oldenburg said. “But we are not using Next Gen Stats in our ratings system right now, thus it will not impact the outcome of the play.”

As for blocking, Oldenburg said, “We’re not using robust Next Gen Stats data in the blocking space quite yet, but it could have an indirect impact based on the movement of the players.”

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

I will say the next gen stats movement alone has taken this game to a new level. I know comp people do not like it, but sim gamers, I kid you not when I say it is that good. Of course my opinion, but movement itself is to the next level, the rest has to catch up of course.

[canes21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

Next gen stats had an incredibly noticeable impact in the overall movement of 21 as well as the route running in particular. If the rest of the game can attain the quality level through next gen stats then Madden would be seen in a much brighter light by me. I hope they continue to use it to make the gameplay more authentic like they used it for the movement and route running in 21.

Anyone who played NG 21 couldn't deny the clear difference there was in look and feel.

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[Playmakers]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

I will say the next gen stats movement alone has taken this game to a new level. I know comp people do not like it, but sim gamers, I kid you not when I say it is that good. Of course my opinion, but movement itself is to the next level, the rest has to catch up of course.

So, I saw a video that shows Next Gen Stats for QB's doing gameplay.

In one video it had Justin Herbert with the following stats:

Last Season Deep Passing

Deep Pass QBR 104.7
Deep Pass Att Freq 10.3%
Deep Pass Completion Rate 37.7%

What I would like to know is since Herbert had a 10.3% deep pass Attempt Frequency would those percentages translate over to his in game playing style?

Is Herbert based on Next Gen Stats going to take deep shots when I play the Chargers roughly 10% of the time.

I've read up on Next Gen Stats and how it impacts player movement but I haven't seen EA really talk about how the Next Gen Stats will translate to their player tendencies on the field.

I'd like to see those types of numbers play out for Herbert when I'm playing the Chargers and not have him dump off every pass short to drive up completion % doing gameplay.

I'm hoping that these next gen stats aren't just something we see pop up doing games just for presentation alone. I want them to greatly impact or be a driving force as to how the actual player will perform on the field.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

So, I saw a video that shows Next Gen Stats for QB's doing gameplay.

In one video it had Justin Herbert with the following stats:

Last Season Deep Passing

Deep Pass QBR 104.7
Deep Pass Att Freq 10.3%
Deep Pass Completion Rate 37.7%

What I would like to know is since Herbert had a 10.3% deep pass Attempt Frequency would those percentages translate over to his in game playing style?

Is Herbert based on Next Gen Stats going to take deep shots when I play the Chargers roughly 10% of the time.

I've read up on Next Gen Stats and how it impacts player movement but I haven't seen EA really talk about how the Next Gen Stats will translate to their player tendencies on the field.

I'd like to see those types of numbers play out for Herbert when I'm playing the Chargers and not have him dump off every pass short to drive up completion % doing gameplay.

I'm hoping that these next gen stats aren't just something we see pop up doing games just for presentation alone. I want them to greatly impact or be a driving force as to how the actual player will perform on the field.

Go read the gridiron notes if you get a chance, it covers this. Yes, their tendency will be based on next gen stats and will even change through live player updates through the real nfl season in play now and other modes that are live roster based. Franchise mode will update based on how their playing in your seasons.

Not sure if you played the beta but I’ve posted examples earlier in other threads of this actually working through what they call Star Driven AI. Not only do players behave as you would expect, teams do. Ravens will be run heavy finally where a team like the Bills will be more pass heavy. It’s much improved.

[gausec]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

Go read the gridiron notes if you get a chance, it covers this. Yes, their tendency will be based on next gen stats and will even change through live player updates through the real nfl season in play now and other modes that are live roster based. Franchise mode will update based on how their playing in your seasons.

Not sure if you played the beta but I’ve posted examples earlier in other threads of this actually working through what they call Star Driven AI. Not only do players behave as you would expect, teams do. Ravens will be run heavy finally where a team like the Bills will be more pass heavy. It’s much improved.

I am definitely interested how this will work for Franchsie mode. When I read the note, I can see this working really well for play now, and versus real opponents. But when we are year 2 or 3 will of Franchise and have fictional rookies will they have unique tendencies or feel similar. While they will change on how they're playing from a sim perspective will that work? In past madden's QB's like Lamar barely had any rushing attempts. Obviously, you can't answer that, and they state it will be unique but saying and doing are two different things.

[Iteachpercussion]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

For me the big question mark for Next Gen Stats driving gameplay and tendencies is dealing with franchise mode as things change in YOUR franchise. I am not just talking about drafted players but what about a current player who ends up with a new coach or on a new team. The tendencies could/should change based on system. QB is the easiest example to discuss.

If a current QB is in a vertical passing system now, chances are he is taking more shots downfield. His real life stats show indicate that and impact that QB in Madden in your franchise. That is great and all, but... 3 years into your franchise, the coaching staff changes and the new offense is a West Coast system. How does that impact that same QB? Will he still take the shots based on real life NGstats? He probably should not as the offensive system has changed and therefore the QBs tendencies should change.

Now I know that to a certain extent, QBs are going to be themselves regardless of the system they play in, but the system should impact the QBs tendencies. Perhaps that is done simply through playcalling and thus not allowing the QB to match those tendencies. Or will, regardless of playcalling, will the NGstats impact force the QB to make throws they should no longer make simply because of how the NGstats impact the game?

There are so many variables in this.

Now, EA did mention that stats from your own franchise will drive tendencies as well. This adds yet another layer onto the process.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

For me the big question mark for Next Gen Stats driving gameplay and tendencies is dealing with franchise mode as things change in YOUR franchise. I am not just talking about drafted players but what about a current player who ends up with a new coach or on a new team. The tendencies could/should change based on system. QB is the easiest example to discuss.

If a current QB is in a vertical passing system now, chances are he is taking more shots downfield. His real life stats show indicate that and impact that QB in Madden in your franchise. That is great and all, but... 3 years into your franchise, the coaching staff changes and the new offense is a West Coast system. How does that impact that same QB? Will he still take the shots based on real life NGstats? He probably should not as the offensive system has changed and therefore the QBs tendencies should change.

Now I know that to a certain extent, QBs are going to be themselves regardless of the system they play in, but the system should impact the QBs tendencies. Perhaps that is done simply through playcalling and thus not allowing the QB to match those tendencies. Or will, regardless of playcalling, will the NGstats impact force the QB to make throws they should no longer make simply because of how the NGstats impact the game?

There are so many variables in this.

Now, EA did mention that stats from your own franchise will drive tendencies as well. This adds yet another layer onto the process.

The gridiron notes literally tell you that real players will change based on how they're doing in YOUR seasons as you play. Playcalling, player tendency will all update as you play. How much, how quick, how good? Only time will tell when we get to play the full build and sink time in it.

[Iteachpercussion]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

The gridiron notes literally tell you that real players will change based on how they're doing in YOUR seasons as you play. Playcalling, player tendency will all update as you play. How much, how quick, how good? Only time will tell when we get to play the full build and sink time in it.

Yes, I know that the gridiron notes made that statement and even acknowledged that in my post, it was the last two lines of my post. And you are right, we will not know the extent to how any of it works until we get to play it.

My point is that there are so many variables included in all of this, it will be nearly impossible to point to nextgen stats making a difference vs some other variable.
We have also been told in multiple versions of Madden that team playcalling and tendencies will change for teams as rosters change in your franchise. Again, that is often hard to see how much that actually occurs.

Overall, I am just skeptical of the true impact of nextgen stats outside of player movement and control. I am hoping that the impact is larger, but again, there are so many variables to deal with, are we going to be able to see the actual impact of the nextgen stats?

Further, as someone who makes classic season rosters and plays classic rosters almost exclusively, I am much more concerned about the impact that nextgen stats will have in my franchise than what it has in live updates of current players.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

Yes, I know that the gridiron notes made that statement and even acknowledged that in my post, it was the last two lines of my post. And you are right, we will not know the extent to how any of it works until we get to play it.

My point is that there are so many variables included in all of this, it will be nearly impossible to point to nextgen stats making a difference vs some other variable.
We have also been told in multiple versions of Madden that team playcalling and tendencies will change for teams as rosters change in your franchise. Again, that is often hard to see how much that actually occurs.

Overall, I am just skeptical of the true impact of nextgen stats outside of player movement and control. I am hoping that the impact is larger, but again, there are so many variables to deal with, are we going to be able to see the actual impact of the nextgen stats?

Further, as someone who makes classic season rosters and plays classic rosters almost exclusively, I am much more concerned about the impact that nextgen stats will have in my franchise than what it has in live updates of current players.

Missed that part in your post. I get what you are saying, but I also think, if you have not tried it, you will be surprised how good the Star Driven AI (this is their name for it) is working. I played more of the BETA than I should have and definitely enjoyed franchise mode and play now. Not near enough to see how it will work over many seasons though.

[Iteachpercussion]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

Missed that part in your post. I get what you are saying, but I also think, if you have not tried it, you will be surprised how good the Star Driven AI (this is their name for it) is working. I played more of the BETA than I should have and definitely enjoyed franchise mode and play now. Not near enough to see how it will work over many seasons though.

I am hoping you are right, and do not get me wrong, I am really excited about M22. More so than I have been in quite a long time. I did not get to play the BETA this year and I did not get M21 on Next Gen until Spring.

There is no doubt that things are moving in the right direction. This is one feature that I am concerned about its full implementation, but I am hopeful!

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

Hopefully it’ll just keep being expanded on, I’d be lying if I said it’s perfect. You can easily spot issues (qb dropping back into oblivion, bad late game calling still), but I’m confident in their current direction. Never would’ve said that before this year.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

To me, it’s still unclear how next-gen stats affects player movement. If next-gen stats says a player moves at speed X, BUT he has a speed rating of Y, how is his speed really determined?

[canes21]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

To me, it’s still unclear how next-gen stats affects player movement. If next-gen stats says a player moves at speed X, BUT he has a speed rating of Y, how is his speed really determined?

Think of it like this. In the past a 99 speed player may have ran 26 mph in game. Now with next gen stats EA can see exactly how fast NFL players actually run and tune their movement in game to reflect it.

Maybe next gen stats show the fastest players in the league only ever reach 21.2 mph with the league. Now EA can tune it to where a 99 speed player runs around 21.2 mph at their max speed instead of the 26 before. This makes the movement immediately more authentic.

Next EA can look at how fast every player has run and what they consistently run around and get them rated more accurately moving forward. Maybe player X had 94 speed in the past, but next gen stats show he was actually the 5th fastest player in the NFL the last 2 years. Now EA fan raise his speed rating to be more accurate.

With the speed ratings resulting in more accurate player movement and the players being more accurately rated it leads to the overall movement and speed of the game being the most authentic it's ever been.

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[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Next Gen Stats: Is it capable of taking Madden to the Next Level

When they incorporate it into blocking, YES. But that can’t happen until QB AI makes significant strides. Not just generic pocket navigation, but what actually separates the great QBs from the not so great: pocket movement, sure, but also vision, mental quickness, REAL inaccuracy (slightly off, ball placement, all that), etc.

When they get those things sorted out, THEN they can add in NGS for linemen. Because right now they are simulating time to pass by nerfing the pass rush and pocket distortion by pass rush, instead of increasing QB pocket awareness and movement, while making pass rush as chaotic and dominant as it really is. In the real NFL, linemen don’t play patty cake for three seconds. You have push and pull, redirection, movement backwards caused by bull rushes, and so on. Like a sumo match. It’s the QB stepping up and around pressure that increases pocket time, not pass rushers being stonewalled for a couple of seconds every play.

That is why QB AI must be fixed first. Because if pass blocking/pass rush is made realistic without fixing QB AI, we’ll see QBs taking 100 sacks a season.