So.....the lighting

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  • reverend_heat
    MVP
    • Aug 2002
    • 1775

    #1

    So.....the lighting

    In an article posted back on May 17th on ESPN titled "Inside the return of EA sports college football video game", a multiple paragraph portion is dedicated to a brand new toolset created for real time lighting (GIBS Global Illumination Based on Surfels). Excerpt below:

    "As the team started construction, they began to look at innovative ways to solve problems and tech they could borrow from other EA games or create themselves. McLeod said they realized they needed a new lighting system in the game to create the scale they needed -- Global Illumination Based on Surfels, or what they commonly call GIBS. GIBS is a dynamic, real-time lighting system that helps create different atmospheres in the stadium for a noon game, a 3:30 game or a night game, including how light might refract off helmets.

    With GIBS in place, the team created a Stadium Toolkit, which McLeod said allowed designers and developers to almost go brick by brick, section by section to recreate stadiums to make sure the color schemes were correct down to the individual railings, tunnels and walls. It almost, McLeod said, became like a virtual Lego set putting it all together.

    While there were some pieces from NCAA Football 14 they could use, those stadiums and mascots were built on a different engine for a different console. Not much would translate, so they had to start from the beginning.

    Building an empty stadium took about a week depending on the venue, with Syracuse's JMA Wireless Dome among the trickiest because it was indoors and cavernous, so lighting had to be set up a bit differently than other schools. McLeod called it "the perfect storm of stadiums."

    From what has been shown in the videos so far, the lighting and shadows do not move or change throughout the entirety of the game. This is probably most striking in QBJ's video where LSU takes on Oregon in the Rose Bowl. That bowl game in particular is known for starting in the daytime and ending in a night sky. It baffles me EA would tout this new GIBS tool, they themselves referring to it as a "brand new real time lighting system" and then upon release we would be left with a game long static lighting environment. I realize some people don't care about this at all, it just seems odd to me, the lighting looks so great in so many of the videos, but having it not progress or change at all is jarring and immersion breaking imo.
  • Kid OS
    Pro
    • Sep 2016
    • 829

    #2
    Re: So.....the lighting

    If I could like this post 1000 times, I would. It makes no sense how NCAA 08 still has the best lighting... 17 years later. My favorite part of NCAA 14 was playing a 3:30 gme that transitioned into dusk. I used to play games at the High School stadiums just so I could see the sunset better. Off topic, but Idek if we can play games outside of the home stadium anymore.

    This week has had a lot of disappointments for me.

    Comment

    • reverend_heat
      MVP
      • Aug 2002
      • 1775

      #3
      Re: So.....the lighting

      Originally posted by Kid OS
      If I could like this post 1000 times, I would. It makes no sense how NCAA 08 still has the best lighting... 17 years later. My favorite part of NCAA 14 was playing a 3:30 gme that transitioned into dusk. I used to play games at the High School stadiums just so I could see the sunset better. Off topic, but Idek if we can play games outside of the home stadium anymore.

      This week has had a lot of disappointments for me.
      Was it 08 that updated the lighting after every play? Yeah I spent so much time just taking screenshots in that one lol. I'm still hyped about the game for sure and I don't want to seem like I'm being negative, but after finally leaving behind the PS4 Xbox One era and publicly talking about a new real time lighting toolset to then have a static environment seems just insane. I mean Farming Simulator has legit progressive lighting for the love of God. Hopefully it somehow still makes it in but man, not looking great on that front.

      Comment

      • bigwill33
        MVP
        • Jul 2002
        • 2281

        #4
        Re: So.....the lighting

        Yeah, this will bum me out pretty hard. Everyone has their things with this game that are super important to them, and this is probably one of my top ones. Hard to believe it’s 2024 and we are still wanting day-night progression and dynamic weather effects in our sports games. Especially when EA has that technology in their other titles like Battlefield, etc. But here we are.

        Comment

        • stoncold32
          MVP
          • Jul 2002
          • 3588

          #5
          Re: So.....the lighting

          Was this patched into one of the games on PS3?

          Maybe it's possible to do thus time?

          Comment

          • maw0200
            Rookie
            • Jul 2006
            • 66

            #6
            Re: So.....the lighting

            Originally posted by reverend_heat
            In an article posted back on May 17th on ESPN titled "Inside the return of EA sports college football video game", a multiple paragraph portion is dedicated to a brand new toolset created for real time lighting (GIBS Global Illumination Based on Surfels). Excerpt below:

            "As the team started construction, they began to look at innovative ways to solve problems and tech they could borrow from other EA games or create themselves. McLeod said they realized they needed a new lighting system in the game to create the scale they needed -- Global Illumination Based on Surfels, or what they commonly call GIBS. GIBS is a dynamic, real-time lighting system that helps create different atmospheres in the stadium for a noon game, a 3:30 game or a night game, including how light might refract off helmets.

            With GIBS in place, the team created a Stadium Toolkit, which McLeod said allowed designers and developers to almost go brick by brick, section by section to recreate stadiums to make sure the color schemes were correct down to the individual railings, tunnels and walls. It almost, McLeod said, became like a virtual Lego set putting it all together.

            While there were some pieces from NCAA Football 14 they could use, those stadiums and mascots were built on a different engine for a different console. Not much would translate, so they had to start from the beginning.

            Building an empty stadium took about a week depending on the venue, with Syracuse's JMA Wireless Dome among the trickiest because it was indoors and cavernous, so lighting had to be set up a bit differently than other schools. McLeod called it "the perfect storm of stadiums."

            From what has been shown in the videos so far, the lighting and shadows do not move or change throughout the entirety of the game. This is probably most striking in QBJ's video where LSU takes on Oregon in the Rose Bowl. That bowl game in particular is known for starting in the daytime and ending in a night sky. It baffles me EA would tout this new GIBS tool, they themselves referring to it as a "brand new real time lighting system" and then upon release we would be left with a game long static lighting environment. I realize some people don't care about this at all, it just seems odd to me, the lighting looks so great in so many of the videos, but having it not progress or change at all is jarring and immersion breaking imo.
            I think you basically answered your question in the info you copied and pasted. It’s pretty obvious that it took a ton of work to get the lighting right in each of the 140-150 stadiums. Which to me makes it pretty obvious they just didn’t really have time to properly implement progressive lighting.

            Comment

            • TarHeelPhenom
              All Star
              • Jul 2002
              • 7117

              #7
              Re: So.....the lighting

              Originally posted by Kid OS
              If I could like this post 1000 times, I would. It makes no sense how NCAA 08 still has the best lighting... 17 years later. My favorite part of NCAA 14 was playing a 3:30 gme that transitioned into dusk. I used to play games at the High School stadiums just so I could see the sunset better. Off topic, but Idek if we can play games outside of the home stadium anymore.

              This week has had a lot of disappointments for me.
              I would encourage you to hold off until you get the retail copy and see for yourself. Not saying that what we've seen isn't what the retail will look like. But...

              These guys are showing footage from a Beta. We've seen in Madden Beta's where the lighting is off, only to be fixed in the final copy. Again, not saying this is the case with the college game. Just saying, we're about to find everything we want to know out in 3-4 days. If we don't want to buy right now, there is the 10 hour trial. I'd at least give that a shot.
              "Dunks are tough, but when a 35 footer come rainin out the sky...it'll wire you up"

              Comment

              • jbd345
                MVP
                • Apr 2011
                • 2437

                #8
                Re: So.....the lighting

                Welp, as a Syracuse fan this has me mildly concerned.

                Comment

                • Kid OS
                  Pro
                  • Sep 2016
                  • 829

                  #9
                  Re: So.....the lighting

                  Originally posted by TarHeelPhenom
                  I would encourage you to hold off until you get the retail copy and see for yourself. Not saying that what we've seen isn't what the retail will look like. But...

                  These guys are showing footage from a Beta. We've seen in Madden Beta's where the lighting is off, only to be fixed in the final copy. Again, not saying this is the case with the college game. Just saying, we're about to find everything we want to know out in 3-4 days. If we don't want to buy right now, there is the 10 hour trial. I'd at least give that a shot.
                  I don't think it'll be fixed because they never fixed it on Madden 24. I've already spent $170 on this game, so I'll play it regardless, but EA has me scratching my head (as expected) lol.

                  Comment

                  • reverend_heat
                    MVP
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 1775

                    #10
                    Re: So.....the lighting

                    Originally posted by maw0200
                    I think you basically answered your question in the info you copied and pasted. It’s pretty obvious that it took a ton of work to get the lighting right in each of the 140-150 stadiums. Which to me makes it pretty obvious they just didn’t really have time to properly implement progressive lighting.
                    If that's the case they should have never mentioned the words real time lighting then, because in it's current state it seems much more like baked lighting. Regardless of whether technically that's right or wrong, real-time lighting to me suggests shadow and lighting progression in a football game.

                    Comment

                    • reverend_heat
                      MVP
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 1775

                      #11
                      Re: So.....the lighting

                      Originally posted by TarHeelPhenom
                      I would encourage you to hold off until you get the retail copy and see for yourself. Not saying that what we've seen isn't what the retail will look like. But...

                      These guys are showing footage from a Beta. We've seen in Madden Beta's where the lighting is off, only to be fixed in the final copy. Again, not saying this is the case with the college game. Just saying, we're about to find everything we want to know out in 3-4 days. If we don't want to buy right now, there is the 10 hour trial. I'd at least give that a shot.
                      This issue isn't going to sway me from buying the game or dampen my hype for it, just pointing out it's kinda like buying a brand new car and realizing once you get home there is a chip in the paint. The lighting itself looks amazing, was just anticipating with all the issues Madden has had w progressive lighting in the last few years this would be for sure ironed out.

                      Comment

                      • green94
                        MVP
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 3131

                        #12
                        Re: So.....the lighting

                        If this is the progressive lighting therapy group please save a seat for me

                        Comment

                        • kasa
                          Rookie
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 185

                          #13
                          Re: So.....the lighting

                          Terrible if this isn’t in as older sports games have had it. It seems this generation of consoles sometimes has less of these kind of features somehow

                          Comment

                          • TarHeelPhenom
                            All Star
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 7117

                            #14
                            Re: So.....the lighting

                            Originally posted by reverend_heat
                            This issue isn't going to sway me from buying the game or dampen my hype for it, just pointing out it's kinda like buying a brand new car and realizing once you get home there is a chip in the paint. The lighting itself looks amazing, was just anticipating with all the issues Madden has had w progressive lighting in the last few years this would be for sure ironed out.

                            Would love for it to be like MLB The Show where the lighting literally changes every inning. Sometimes during the inning it seems.
                            "Dunks are tough, but when a 35 footer come rainin out the sky...it'll wire you up"

                            Comment

                            • canes21
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 22930

                              #15
                              Re: So.....the lighting

                              Originally posted by reverend_heat
                              If that's the case they should have never mentioned the words real time lighting then, because in it's current state it seems much more like baked lighting. Regardless of whether technically that's right or wrong, real-time lighting to me suggests shadow and lighting progression in a football game.
                              Real-time doesn't mean progressive lighting in tech terms. Baked lighting just means the lighting is static and every object has lightmaps and shadows that are "baked" into place.

                              In a baked scene like a room with a box under a light. If you pick the box up and rotate it 180 degrees. The side that originally was facing the light will still show as being lit up and the side that was originally not facing the light will still remain dark despite it facing the light now. And if you move the box 5 feet to the left, the shadow will remain in place since that is where it was "baked" into.

                              Baked lighting was popular back in the day because it was significantly less stressful on the hardware and most games had no need for day/night cycles and stuff of that sorts. They built out their levels, the lighting would never change, so they'd bake it in place to take stress off the graphics card.

                              Real-time lighting just means all that is calculated above in real-time and updates in real-time. If a box moves, the shadows update in real-time. If you spin the box, the lighting updates in real-time on the box so that the side facing the light is the lit up side.

                              Real-time doesn't guarantee that progressive lighting will be a feature, but it should make it easier to implement. That makes it puzzling that we're not seeing it in clips.

                              With real-time lighting they should be able to go in and make it so that after each play, or at least after each quarter, the sun's coordinates change to get it moving through the sky like the real sun, and as a result, the shadows and angles of rays and everything involved will update.

                              It should, in theory, also make it easier on them to have the coordinates change based on time of year so that the lighting is different in August compared to November just like it is in real life due to the earth's orbit around the sun.

                              One of the main benefits of real-time lighting is that it all updates in real-time, as the name suggests, so it's quicker and easier to work with. More expensive on the hardware, but these systems are strong enough to where that's not really a worry anymore.

                              With baked lighting, it was less taxing on the hardware, but you literally had to update it every time you made a change and you'd have to sit there and let the engine calculate the lighting, so even if you simply moved one prop 5 feet to the right, if you wanted to see how it looked now, you'd have to bake the lighting, let it all get calculated out, then you'd see the end result. If you didn't like it, you'd have to go through that process over and over until things where were you wanted them. It could take minutes to hours to update the lighting depending on the scene, so you can see how that was a headache and how real-time lighting is so much easier to work with.
                              “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                              ― Plato

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