EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

[theoutcast99]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

does anyone know if turning on competitor mode will make the CPU defence more aggressive and less passive?

[illp8989]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

I came in to say the same thing. Using the latest sliders and, while things have improved, there's still the issue (for me at least) underneath that the AI doesn't seem to know how to attack.

I'm playing in the SPFL (on Legendary) and I've got a formation and tactics which suit my players perfectly. Playing against Celtic or Rangers the right amount of challenge is there, because they attack and they're effective.

Every other team in the league gets to the half way line in possession, then passes back to the centre-halves before doing the same thing again, over and over again. I score most of my goals high-pressing until they make a mistake, burst through and score one-on-one.

No teams play long balls, no-one favours wing play, no-one breaks me down. It is BORING. There must be some way to adjust the sim settings/AI sliders so that they actually attempt to play football.

Unfortunately it's a very weak league outside of rangers and Celtic it can be tough to get proper challenge ,last year i played a Scottish league career and won a game 10-0 like I'm far from being that good at the game not at all ,but my best guess would be add some build up speed and some shot frequency might suit more a Scottish league type football ,or as last solution wich could be good is a second controller and make lower team play more like a kick rush style long ball or counter style ,it's unfortunate to have to kinda decide how the team we're facing will play but is still more realistic then having Livingston or like Kilmarnock playing prime Barca 2009 or Man City possession style wich or not at all their level in real life

[Dummett]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

In regard to previous postings I'd say best to increase CPU build up speed? I'm not finding that in bundesliga.2 career mode which makes me think it's a AI team set up? 10 out of the 12 Scottish teams are hardly of the adventurous type..

[Mr_Tayto]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Unfortunately it's a very weak league outside of rangers and Celtic it can be tough to get proper challenge ,last year i played a Scottish league career and won a game 10-0 like I'm far from being that good at the game not at all ,but my best guess would be add some build up speed and some shot frequency might suit more a Scottish league type football ,or as last solution wich could be good is a second controller and make lower team play more like a kick rush style long ball or counter style ,it's unfortunate to have to kinda decide how the team we're facing will play but is still more realistic then having Livingston or like Kilmarnock playing prime Barca 2009 or Man City possession style wich or not at all their level in real life

In regard to previous postings I'd say best to increase CPU build up speed? I'm not finding that in bundesliga.2 career mode which makes me think it's a AI team set up? 10 out of the 12 Scottish teams are hardly of the adventurous type..

Fair(ish) comments, but Scottish teams don't play each other in unadventurous ways, no matter that they might park the bus against Celtic and Rangers (although even that is changing - Sky Sports has Aberdeen play Rangers tomorrow night which will be a good, open game).

And parking the bus is all well and good where a team might be trying to sneak a draw or a counter against a superior team, but most teams are well matched in Scotland; 10 of the 12 are perfectly able to take points off each other, even give each other doings.

I will follow the advice of changing CPU sliders, though. This year at least we have the capability to do this, especially where there seems to be a fix for long term issues like the aggressiveness of challenges, fouls etc.

[V1nn1e]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

I tried adding a photo but it won’t let me, every time I attack the opponent ends up with 7 players in the box defending, it’s impossible to do anything. I know teams have their own tactics and player tactics but it seems to be the same every game.

That’s actually what I’m trying to get. I’m playing as Rangers in cinch Premier and most teams are supposed to be low block. No matter how much I tweak the CPU sliders I can’t get 7 defenders in the box when I score. But a lot of the time in real life highlights you see lots of defenders in the box.

[CR1978]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

You could increase user accell to 51 to start. Raising pass error to like 65 could help make them think more. Try inputting falkens AI sliders a few posts above on legendary and see how that feels.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

Thanks, I'll have to have a look. I don't feel very confident in changing too much incase I break the game more so it's a bit of a puzzle

Also I noticed that the team playing I described had a tiki taka style which makes sense with all the passing around...just they weren't barely attacking and kept passing it around the back way more. It may be interesting to see how other teams styles and formations affect the play too.

[TheGingernator]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Hi all, used these on FC24 and hadn’t considered using them for 25 until being reminded on a EA Sports Forum Post

I won’t copy word for word, but general gist I play:

6 minute halves, Semi settings, advanced defending, manual jockey etc
Arsenal fan, so like playing as Arsenal. Custom AI (all 50s), weather effects off, Simulation sliders (soon to be custom!)

Legendary = constant 1-0, 2-0s, 25 games into the season had conceded 4 goals, not a challenge

Ultimate = CPU gets better, but my team also gets massively worse (missing easy passes, wonky defensive line etc, I’m sure you’re all aware of these things which is why you’re here!)

All of the stuff on here doesn’t include Ultimate difficulty modes, is that because with the right tweaking Legendary should achieve the realism without your team being worse? Or do people use them for Ultimate too?

Thank you again for all the work!

Edit: I’ve spent more of an evening looking through the thread and testing bits myself. Looking at changing up the AI behaviour from all 50s, but just off the sliders and legendary it was much better! Tried it as Arsenal against Everton and Man City. Against Everton dominated possession with chances but not scoring for fun, and they would show glimpses of danger, against Man City a much more back and forth contest.

[BrewCrew16]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Hi all, used these on FC24 and hadn’t considered using them for 25 until being reminded on a EA Sports Forum Post

I won’t copy word for word, but general gist I play:

6 minute halves, Semi settings, advanced defending, manual jockey etc
Arsenal fan, so like playing as Arsenal. Custom AI (all 50s), weather effects off, Simulation sliders (soon to be custom!)

Legendary = constant 1-0, 2-0s, 25 games into the season had conceded 4 goals, not a challenge

Ultimate = CPU gets better, but my team also gets massively worse (missing easy passes, wonky defensive line etc, I’m sure you’re all aware of these things which is why you’re here!)

All of the stuff on here doesn’t include Ultimate difficulty modes, is that because with the right tweaking Legendary should achieve the realism without your team being worse? Or do people use them for Ultimate too?

Thank you again for all the work!

Edit: I’ve spent more of an evening looking through the thread and testing bits myself. Looking at changing up the AI behaviour from all 50s, but just off the sliders and legendary it was much better! Tried it as Arsenal against Everton and Man City. Against Everton dominated possession with chances but not scoring for fun, and they would show glimpses of danger, against Man City a much more back and forth contest.

Everybody should try Falkens cpu ai sliders and see if they like that.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

[Mr_Tayto]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Everybody should try Falkens cpu ai sliders and see if they like that.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

I did, and my God what a difference! So much better, AI teams now actually try to attack! Off the top of my head:

- More direct passing from the AI, which leads to an actual battle in midfield with misplaced passes and offsides!

- Some tackles from the AI, leading to a couple of yellows over three games, but with the side effect (due to the direct passing) that I can snap into sliding tackles instead of running around chasing dribbling and short passing AI

- It's harder to score... Don't ask me how, but somehow wingplay is affected negatively, although this may be from two of my games being at home against same or lower level teams who play a very deep defence

Overall though, it's gone from being frustratingly boring chasing CBs around their own half, to a more open but challenging midfield and possession game.

Thank God, because I uninstalled 24 within about 2 weeks of launch and never touched it again. This I can work with!

[TheGingernator]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Everybody should try Falkens cpu ai sliders and see if they like that.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

Yes i have added these! Started a new career with all the new sliders so going through preseason but shall report back when I’ve got some games in!

[WoodsFC]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Tackle Aggression 85
Buildup Speed 60
Shot Frequency 63
First Touch Pass Frequency 65
Crossing Frequency 90
Dribble Frequency 40
Skill Move Frequency 65

I find it too easy to dribble around the CBs when Tackle Aggression is this high.

[Matt10]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Yeah this is frustrating. The CPU I’m facing are moving so fast even when I switch to my players, they are so clunky and slow reacting. I’m getting destroyed on defense because my CPU defenders don’t do anything. On the flip side when I get the ball their CPUs are magnets. Professional is too easy, I am struggling on WC. Their movement with the ball is insane, my slow CPUs react a second late even when I’m controlling them…

Try raising acceleration for the user and see how that plays. Acceleration can work as a reaction slider at times.

Just tried my first Leeds match with v4 sliders on World Class.

First impressions were very good, pass speed and overall game speed is back feeling much more realistic on v4. Unfortunately when I went 2-0 up I got concerned and sure enough ended up winning 4-0 again.

I'm going to have to test out legendary difficulty. Usually world class is my level and I have fair results with a decent challenge which was perfect before the last game update. Since the last update I'm thumping everyone easily and it's killed the game for me yet again.

I only hope legendary is better. My issues seem to be that the keepers again make bad errors. 1 goal I shot from outside the box almost directly down the middle and the keeper didn't react in time. My last goal was a FIFA classic since 23 where I'm coming in diagonally in the box, shoot low and the keeper just kinda flops onto the floor rather than diving and watches it sail past him. He barely had to reach at all to stop it but just dropped.

Aside from that I'm just running rings around defenders. It seems ridiculously easy to just change direction or stop and start whilst the AI either is goaded into a tackle and misses leaving you open, or they just don't even attempt one leaving you to run around them. That's the best way I can describe it. Before the update it was hard work to beat a defence and you felt rewarded when you did. Now I can just run around 3 or 4 players with relative ease and am again feeling like the only way to make it more realistic and challenging is to try hard not to score.

Good explanation of one of the main differences with pre and post patch. I'm a WC player as well and that was one of the sources of my frustrating, just the ease in turning the CPU. Sometimes it's DAA, sometimes it's just over-aggression. It's a tough slider spot as if we increase marking, they are way too aggressive, if we increase aggression, they miss even farther off the mark. This is one of the reasons I had Sprint at 30 because they were more "solid" or "heavier" which meant less frames to run over, or run past the user.

Matt can you comment on my slider experimentation

The problem I see is very robotic like defending , very unrealistic
This creates awkward situations

https://youtu.be/IyVCV-LRmcE

I managed to fix it, to get that individual movement
Not this hivemind defending we are accustom to in default gameplay
This also slows down the gameplay where players have to think and movements become more dynamic
https://youtu.be/-W1pJrJFiqk

I'm not sure what to comment on as there's no slider value you've provided? Unless I missed it. It looks better from Villa's side. Wolves are still standing around for the most part. The frustrating part is someone like Mario Lemina just standing with the ball so close to him. Then Villa there, who are known to have the highest line IRL, are dropping back like a 30 deep.

So the update on switching to legendary...

I selected player based skills and competitor mode too I think they're called and that was quite the adjustment.

Now I can't do a damn thing. It took me 15 minutes of the next game just to touch the ball. Lost 2-0, barely had any chances and every time I did happen to win the ball the AI was on me like a rash. Unfortunately this is now too far the opposite way because the entire game was the AI passing all over the field as I tried desperately to win the ball...they passed back to the keeper about 10 times in the game because they couldn't break me down easily but I couldn't win the ball either...or when I forced a mistake or did miraculously win a loose ball, they shut me down instantly.

This game. Now it's too hard. I guess there's tweaks in there somewhere to balance it hopefully but for now I'm frustrated there's no sweet spot. It's way too easy or way too hard moving between world class and legendary.

The way FIFA has always played makes it ten times more difficult because your own AI players do bugger all to help you, every time I force a loose ball or error my teammates will actually go out of their way to move AWAY from the ball or opposition player until I've selected him...which of course is always that second too late.

Turn off competitor mode for one, that turns them into FUT pro players and removes all realism. Player Based Skills is good for WC, but I understand Legendary tends to over-do it at times.

Don't be afraid to raise pass error (or any error value really) for Legendary as there is more room for error compared to WC.

Teammate AI is tough because yeah, the 1v1 is more enhanced post-patch for some reason. It's the stupid term the FUT crowd thought of called "AI defending", so they dumbed it down so as not to remove the skill gap.

I still recommend to play Legacy defending if the other two options isn't ideal. Legacy allows your secondary teammate AI to actually go into the ball carrier all the way through, rather than jockey into position. I personally don't use Legacy defending anymore as I've gotten too used to the other methods.

Has anybody got an idea on how to deal with teams using a deep defensive line?

These games are the worst, defenders are literally standing around on the penalty spot and let you shoot from the edge of the box. No matter what I tried with sliders or CPU behavior, this thing seems unfixable (unless you use a second controller and edit the opponents team tactics before every game).

Probably one of the toughest tests. If you get an aggressive defending team, it's not bad, but as soon as you have a balanced one, they just back off and stand outside the six-yard box.

The updates in V4 are excellent imo - reverting back to 35 Sprint, 50 Acc and 40 Pass Speed was necessary and is effective. I’m still playing around with the Line Height/Length as I do think there are still some issues with teams that use the “Deep” defensive line tactic.

There’s one final value I’d like to shill to you all at present, and that’s Shot Speed. Personally, I’ve found that dropping it down by just one point to 49/49 has led to much smoother, more realistic shots (and headers). Please give it a try and let me know what you think. Also open to suggestions on how this impacts GKs - I know the two sliders are very closely linked and even small adjustments can have a big effect. I’m still testing 49/50/51 GK Ability to see how the animations pair up but would appreciate wider feedback.



I’m also firmly in the “Custom” camp when it comes to CPU behaviour sliders. I also think these are completely down to individual preference and there should not be a “one size fits all” set that is shared; rather we should be helping each other to understand what changing these values does to the gameplay so we can all find our sweet spot.

One thing I would say on this - try not to let the tail wag the dog, i.e. don’t let stats dictate the sliders. We all want realistic gameplay, that’s why we’re here. But there are limitations - you’re not going to match real-life possession, xG, pass accuracy % etc. Last year with the introduction of xG as an in-game stat (which I thought was a great addition), I became fixated on trying to get it to be realistic according to real-life matches, constantly tweaking shot error etc. Eventually I realised it just wasn’t possible and I ended up making the gameplay feel worse just to try and get the numbers looking right. As long as the game feels good to play, don’t worry too much about the post-match stats.

Higher Tackle Aggression, Shot Freq and Crossing Freq seems to be the general consensus - however I think Buildup Speed and Pass/Dribble/Skill Freq are all down to the individual’s discretion. I’ve seen some people prefer Buildup/Skill Freq as low as 30 and others like yourself bumping them up to 60+. It’s interesting because personally I find 45-50 Buildup and 35-40 Skill Freq much more realistic, which just shows how much variation there’s going to be.

The biggest issue I've seen with lowering shot speed is the GK can still "set" the ball to themselves after making a diving save. It's such a terrible animation, and happens even on shot speed 50. 50 also has some terrible shot animations though, where the ball just randomly speeds up on shots, etc.

It's difficult because some of the best save animations have happened on shot speed 51, while the best looking shot speeds have happened on 48-49 range.

Another great update guys, can see where you are going with this.

My own personal preference is the v3 sprint & acceleration, like the way they follow the player better but I’m definitely on board with the new pass speed & error, far, far better.

Also as per my fellow Liverpool fan said g98smith I have also gone with short speed 49 & goalkeeping at 51.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I think less frames (Sprint 30) is always better in theory, but application we saw what the feedback was referring to about players not sprinting. These are the sacrifices of course. Pre-patch 30,31,32 were perfect for me. I get that we wanted players to sprint but in the FIFA world, sprinting off the ball is just as fast as sprinting with the ball, and everyone can perfectly control the ball when sprinting somehow. On lower Sprints at least you can feel the difference from a dribbler and non-dribbler.

Everybody should try Falkens cpu ai sliders and see if they like that.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

I'll take a look. We know we need to have this as the 4th option (tactical, dynamic, custom-50s, custom) at some point. Of course some of those values are going to play completely different on difficulty, tactics and roles, not to mention leagues.

[CR1978]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Try raising acceleration for the user and see how that plays. Acceleration can work as a reaction slider at times.



Good explanation of one of the main differences with pre and post patch. I'm a WC player as well and that was one of the sources of my frustrating, just the ease in turning the CPU. Sometimes it's DAA, sometimes it's just over-aggression. It's a tough slider spot as if we increase marking, they are way too aggressive, if we increase aggression, they miss even farther off the mark. This is one of the reasons I had Sprint at 30 because they were more "solid" or "heavier" which meant less frames to run over, or run past the user.



I'm not sure what to comment on as there's no slider value you've provided? Unless I missed it. It looks better from Villa's side. Wolves are still standing around for the most part. The frustrating part is someone like Mario Lemina just standing with the ball so close to him. Then Villa there, who are known to have the highest line IRL, are dropping back like a 30 deep.



Turn off competitor mode for one, that turns them into FUT pro players and removes all realism. Player Based Skills is good for WC, but I understand Legendary tends to over-do it at times.

Don't be afraid to raise pass error (or any error value really) for Legendary as there is more room for error compared to WC.

Teammate AI is tough because yeah, the 1v1 is more enhanced post-patch for some reason. It's the stupid term the FUT crowd thought of called "AI defending", so they dumbed it down so as not to remove the skill gap.

I still recommend to play Legacy defending if the other two options isn't ideal. Legacy allows your secondary teammate AI to actually go into the ball carrier all the way through, rather than jockey into position. I personally don't use Legacy defending anymore as I've gotten too used to the other methods.



Probably one of the toughest tests. If you get an aggressive defending team, it's not bad, but as soon as you have a balanced one, they just back off and stand outside the six-yard box.



The biggest issue I've seen with lowering shot speed is the GK can still "set" the ball to themselves after making a diving save. It's such a terrible animation, and happens even on shot speed 50. 50 also has some terrible shot animations though, where the ball just randomly speeds up on shots, etc.

It's difficult because some of the best save animations have happened on shot speed 51, while the best looking shot speeds have happened on 48-49 range.



I think less frames (Sprint 30) is always better in theory, but application we saw what the feedback was referring to about players not sprinting. These are the sacrifices of course. Pre-patch 30,31,32 were perfect for me. I get that we wanted players to sprint but in the FIFA world, sprinting off the ball is just as fast as sprinting with the ball, and everyone can perfectly control the ball when sprinting somehow. On lower Sprints at least you can feel the difference from a dribbler and non-dribbler.



I'll take a look. We know we need to have this as the 4th option (tactical, dynamic, custom-50s, custom) at some point. Of course some of those values are going to play completely different on difficulty, tactics and roles, not to mention leagues.

Thanks Matt, I'm glad that my feedback was useful still despite others usually being able to go into more detail or technical analysis.

I tried another match last night just putting my own acceleration up 1 point to 51 and notching down a couple of the AI sliders by a couple of points (not sure which they were now unfortunately) but the game still played much the same so I switched off from boredom and frustration.

Today I'll put the sliders back to what they were and try with the competitor mode switched back off along with the other one. Maybe default sliders but those being off will be enough. I want the challenge where it takes work to win but not me chasing the team around the pitch just to get on the ball for 85 minutes!

The defending changes they've made on that last update have ruined the game so badly I feel. I know there's so much depth and detail in this career mode and I love the new tactical things and bits of how the game plays this year before these issues, so I just hope it can actually be worked into a great game this year but I'm on the fence at the moment. I just want to enjoy a game I paid for rather than thinking I may get a few weeks fun out of it in a whole year by keep having to work to enjoy it.

Whereabouts were these AI tactics sliders again? I feel those are the other key here potentially. Do you set them this way then leave them for all matches though? I still don't know what to do with those and whether tactical or dynamic is better. Personally I'm not going to change values for every match as that's a ridiculous amount of a chore for me just to enjoy a game that should play well itself.

To be honest I keep feeling like I should just give up and start playing other games that I don't have to work on but then I miss football and being a manager etc.

[Mister MikTo]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Good morning. I play Full Manual, WC 10 minutes. To have the best performance and difficulty of the v4 set, is it advisable to use “DYNAMIC or CUSTOM 50”? Do you have any other advice to suggest? Thanks in advance…

[StattoX17]

Re: EA SPORTS FC25 OS Community Sliders

Good explanation of one of the main differences with pre and post patch. I'm a WC player as well and that was one of the sources of my frustrating, just the ease in turning the CPU. Sometimes it's DAA, sometimes it's just over-aggression. It's a tough slider spot as if we increase marking, they are way too aggressive, if we increase aggression, they miss even farther off the mark. This is one of the reasons I had Sprint at 30 because they were more "solid" or "heavier" which meant less frames to run over, or run past the user.

I think less frames (Sprint 30) is always better in theory, but application we saw what the feedback was referring to about players not sprinting. These are the sacrifices of course. Pre-patch 30,31,32 were perfect for me. I get that we wanted players to sprint but in the FIFA world, sprinting off the ball is just as fast as sprinting with the ball, and everyone can perfectly control the ball when sprinting somehow. On lower Sprints at least you can feel the difference from a dribbler and non-dribbler.

I'll take a look. We know we need to have this as the 4th option (tactical, dynamic, custom-50s, custom) at some point. Of course some of those values are going to play completely different on difficulty, tactics and roles, not to mention leagues.

Long one so bear with me. As I mentioned to Matt on Twitter, this was the thing I found on V2 when the height was around 75. The gap between defence & midfield became too easy to exploit, coupled with a defence unwilling to tackle. I have the same issue on V4 now & it appears to be SS/ACC linked because dropping the ACC last time helped get shape back sooner where as this time I’ve reverted back to V3 with the SS back to 30 & ACC back to 51/52. However, couple 35 with that ACC 51/52 & it’s gone again. Unfortunately as you can imagine, very fast paced & too fast for my liking V3 standard it is.

I’d advise anyone to make a note of changes in difficulty each time the version changes as it may not be in your best interest re difficulty to go with it just yet but may also help Matt & the team pin down what is affect difficulty with each change (if they haven’t already). After multiple testing yesterday I have stayed on V3 because the SS just feels more solid even though I dislike the added speed of the ACC.

On the custom note, I also think ACC, SS & Aggression AI Behaviour have a link. I tried Falkens but am still using a post used a few weeks back by crewtuah but have since made a few tweaks.

Aggression 80 now 90. This won’t be for everyone because the CPU do occasionally make a few lunges when you don’t want them to. However, as we know we have to compromise in places & my finding is the AI make some great standing but also sliding tackles at 90 (appears to be the tipping point). Personally, I’d rather the CPU where making tackles & missing a few than not making tackles & letting user run riot, especially in that defence / midfield central space.

Pass build up 45 - tried 40 but appears to over play in situations where it becomes illogical. Think dribbling & first touch all linked so tricky to get the balance. I did try 65 as I’m sure someone recommended custom 65’s. Although you got some great through balls & direct play, teams all played the same. Fast, direct & it lost any calmness.

Shot frequency 63 - I know for a few people this is the sweet spot & is the one AI slider I haven’t felt the need to change once.

First touch frequency 46 - I tried this at 10 & 90 but for whatever reason really struggled to see a huge difference either way. Again because I think this, dribbling & buildup is impacting one another.

Crossing 52 now 80 - as Falken mentions, what is the harm? However, I would proceed with caution as I have had weird crossing where the ball goes across the other side & backwards. It isn’t a switch, it’s an incredible poor cross but all feels very speed up. I think again, ACC discrepancy helps with allowing CPU into positions to cross, coupled with first touch frequency low meaning less time to think you get crosses in good areas.

Dribble 53 - one I haven’t tried to touch much because the AI does dribble in final third which is what it affects. However, you’ll get tricky wingers go back & fourth in the agile dribble animation. Something I turn off for user. Whether this is link to skills moves?

Skill moves 37 - I did bump this up to 60 & 49. At 60 you get a few skills which is nice as players don’t just simply dribble but it comes at a cost & even at 49. Players do trick passes, mainly backwards. It creates that weird animation we try to avoid where a player is forcing the ball the wrong direction of travel. Again, it results in illogical decision making when you want the winger to burst down the wing but instead pass backwards.

Thanks again to the team for the sliders, the fact I’m playing FC25 to this point is a good sign as the last 3 years have resulted in stopping after only a few days / weeks or not even purchasing after trial. It means the game is in a fairly good state & the sliders are certainly contributing massively towards that! hopefully my feedback here will provide more information how we can all work together to get the best out of the game.