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wwharton · 07-22-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Graphik said:
Only a few of your points mentioned gameplay which is what I may not have a problem with.
But to counter your points I'll just use qoutes.

Quote:

Graphics are stuck in the last millenium. It's 2003 and the player models proportions still resemble what was done on the PS1. That's pathetic and inexcusable. Upgrade.

I still dont see why ppl complaine about the player models. I like them. yes, they may have big *** heads but that totally minor. I can understand why a 2K3 player might not like them because they are spoiled on 2K3s player models, thats understandable. But I see nothing wrong with the player models in terms of size of players, wieght of players and musclular tone. Does'nt bother me a bit.

Quote:

Passing system is still stuck in the 16-Bit era. Madden players say it's fine and it is a challenge, well Madden players maybe you just suck because I have picked this game up after not playing it for very long periods of time, turning it up to it's highest level and still beating the CPU like there is no tomorrow. I also have no trouble completing every pass under the sun in Madden no matter what type of coverage I'm facing. Any game that has Jon Kitna play like Johnny Unitas is not even close to realistic.

Now I dont know what team you play with but you should try using Jim Miller and the bears cause my passing blows ****. I find the passing game quite realistic compared to thos floaty passes in 2K3 which gave the DB just enough time to rock the WR and knock the ball out his hands....frenquently. And the physics of the ball in 2K3 sucked also. Add that to a floaty ball then you've got a passing game thats mediorcore at best. both games had DB AI problems but I sure in hell cant whip on the cpu like you claim you can. You know something I dont know.

Quote:

Tackling blows swinging testes. I've never seen so many stupid tackles in my life. I've yet to see one that resembled realism. This was acceptable in the 16-bit era, and even still in the 32-Bit era, but now it's just a damn shame. EA should be ashamed.

Tackling is'nt as bad as some ppl say. It may have some cheap tackling animations but it still has a decent amount of realistic animations. This once again goes to a player spoiled with 2K3s tackling animations. BUT, in 2K3 a defender can dive at a player from 5 yards away and make a tackle. It seems like they just skip animations and go right into the tackling animation. Or the super dive just works to good.

Quote:

Commentary is light years behind the 2K series, and I would even take Fever's commentary which blows as well over Madden's. It's almost as if they are working with the same amount of memory that was in the PS1. Why does'nt someone tell EA that they can EXPAND it because the systems today can handle a lot more?

No comment on this, I'd be the first to agree that the commentatary on Madden is the most sleep inducing piece of trash I've ever witnessed.

Quote:

Presentation is a step backwards from MADDEN '96 (or was it '97, damn I can't remember). That year Madden had JB in the Fox Studio and John and Pat talking about the games. It was even specific to what time of year and the situation you were in like Playoffs and Super Bowl. It was WAY ahead of it's time. But you know what's funny about that? Visual Concepts produced the Madden game that year!!! It's no coincidence that once VC left, their innovative idea went with them! What does that tell us about EA's lack of intent to bring the consumer the best possible experience?

I dont see nothing wrong with the presentation niether. Both games keep you up to date with player stats throughout the game but I do agree that 2K3 does it better. But I dont like 2K3s interface. Madden beats them in that department IMO.

All in all, you have'nt came up with a legit reason why 2K3 is up with the times as far as football gameplay is concerned and why Madden is behind. Which is the initial question I rasied. Maybe you misinterpreted it but that was the real question.

But dont get me wrong, both games do a good job on the main department that thier sopposed to do good in, and thats play a game of football. Whether Madden has a few hundred less tackling animations, or 2K3 has no running momentum, they both play one good game of football on the field.

Responding only to the intelligent debate (mods are ignoring me

)

Graphik I'll try to generally respond rather than break the points down.

My general problem with madden gameplay is that it doesn't clearly seperate the football experience from the videogame experience. As a novice you can somewhat get the feel of playing football, calling the right play at the right time however I don't even know if this is true on defense. It's more of a feel of learn plays, patterns and techniques to succeed at the game rather than use football knowledge to pick plays and execute proper technique to succeed.

Let me think of some examples. I don't think there are really any Ds in madden that are built for situations besides the extremes (running, hail maries). The others can work but there's no real logic to when and why you use them. This, I think, is one reason many people rely on B&R or want to stay away from playing zone so much. On offense, the best strategy is to find the plays that will get your men open b/c of AI issues and run motion to better succeed with running.

Conversly, with 2k3 on D I know situations or patterns in play calling to make it better for me to call a Cover 2, Cover 3, different zone and man plays. I also know that if I think one way and my opponent crosses me up I can get burned with ANY of these plays b/c I guessed wrong. That's realistic. On offense, I can read the D on all pass plays before and after the snap and determine who will be open and why. On run plays my blocking occurs realistically based on the type of D and whether they call a pinch, twist, base, etc. making the open lanes change constantly.

In terms of execution, I feel most madden players play on the D line not only b/c they want to sack the QB but b/c you can get lost playing mostly as an LB or DB. Also, humans do have momentum but most DBs are as fast or faster than RBs and get ran over rather than just overpersue. DEs/DTs/LBs may get faked on a natural juke but not many DBs. The momentum makes every player run like Olinesmen and also makes the special moves almost unnecessary in the game. Not to mention getting in perfect position with a DB many times does you no good. On offense, there's little reason to run short to medium routes and there aren't many that I remember anyway. Running the ball, many plays can easily be bounced outside and have to be on all out blitzes.

Conversly, in 2k3, playing as an LB or Safety is as much if not more fun than playing offense. There are some AI glitches as well but for the most part if you call a play you can see from the diagram where your players will be and they play how they're supposed to in the play. Making a play on the ball is much easier and much more fun. Offensively, you can easily take what the D gives you just as you should. Running is very realistic the way holes open up and close and when it's appropriate to try to avoid a tackle rather than take the contact and break it with a stiff arm, shoulder charge or spin (players in the NFL spin out of tackles, not to avoid them).

One thing I realized recently is though madden has more momentum (yes 2k3 does have some, just not enough) the biggest difference is how things work. For instance in madden the speed burst controls the momentum. Meaning you hold A and build it up effecting how well you can turn and change directions. In 2k3 this is done with the analog stick. If you don't push all the way on the analog stick you run a more controlled style and save some "momentum" for naturally avoiding tackles. A in 2k3 is for speed burst not momentum building. The running style is also geared more to making you pick the best option for the situation (juke, stutter, spin, stiff arm, speed burst, shoulder charge) rather than madden's style geared towards just avoiding tacklers really. Yes it needs more momentum but the style is more realistic in my opinion.

There are other gameplay differences that I can think of but I'm sure that's more than enough for now.

Anyone besides Graphik (since this is in direct response to you and I don't think I have to worry about you in terms of this) please don't respond to my post at all unless you have something intelligent to say.

07-22-2003, 10:44 PM	#49
wwharton ll Str OVR: 28 Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 26,978	Re: player movement in ESPN Football Quote: *Graphik said:* Only a few of your points mentioned gameplay which is what I may not have a problem with. But to counter your points I'll just use qoutes. Quote: Graphics are stuck in the last millenium. It's 2003 and the player models proportions still resemble what was done on the PS1. That's pathetic and inexcusable. Upgrade. I still dont see why ppl complaine about the player models. I like them. yes, they may have big * heads but that totally minor. I can understand why a 2K3 player might not like them because they are spoiled on 2K3s player models, thats understandable. But I see nothing wrong with the player models in terms of size of players, wieght of players and musclular tone. Does'nt bother me a bit. Quote: Passing system is still stuck in the 16-Bit era. Madden players say it's fine and it is a challenge, well Madden players maybe you just suck because I have picked this game up after not playing it for very long periods of time, turning it up to it's highest level and still beating the CPU like there is no tomorrow. I also have no trouble completing every pass under the sun in Madden no matter what type of coverage I'm facing. Any game that has Jon Kitna play like Johnny Unitas is not even close to realistic. Now I dont know what team you play with but you should try using Jim Miller and the bears cause my passing blows **. I find the passing game quite realistic compared to thos floaty passes in 2K3 which gave the DB just enough time to rock the WR and knock the ball out his hands....frenquently. And the physics of the ball in 2K3 sucked also. Add that to a floaty ball then you've got a passing game thats mediorcore at best. both games had DB AI problems but I sure in hell cant whip on the cpu like you claim you can. You know something I dont know. Quote: Tackling blows swinging testes. I've never seen so many stupid tackles in my life. I've yet to see one that resembled realism. This was acceptable in the 16-bit era, and even still in the 32-Bit era, but now it's just a damn shame. EA should be ashamed. Tackling is'nt as bad as some ppl say. It may have some cheap tackling animations but it still has a decent amount of realistic animations. This once again goes to a player spoiled with 2K3s tackling animations. BUT, in 2K3 a defender can dive at a player from 5 yards away and make a tackle. It seems like they just skip animations and go right into the tackling animation. Or the super dive just works to good. Quote: Commentary is light years behind the 2K series, and I would even take Fever's commentary which blows as well over Madden's. It's almost as if they are working with the same amount of memory that was in the PS1. Why does'nt someone tell EA that they can EXPAND it because the systems today can handle a lot more? No comment on this, I'd be the first to agree that the commentatary on Madden is the most sleep inducing piece of trash I've ever witnessed. Quote: Presentation is a step backwards from MADDEN '96 (or was it '97, damn I can't remember). That year Madden had JB in the Fox Studio and John and Pat talking about the games. It was even specific to what time of year and the situation you were in like Playoffs and Super Bowl. It was WAY ahead of it's time. But you know what's funny about that? Visual Concepts produced the Madden game that year!!! It's no coincidence that once VC left, their innovative idea went with them! What does that tell us about EA's lack of intent to bring the consumer the best possible experience? I dont see nothing wrong with the presentation niether. Both games keep you up to date with player stats throughout the game but I do agree that 2K3 does it better. But I dont like 2K3s interface. Madden beats them in that department IMO. All in all, you have'nt came up with a legit reason why 2K3 is up with the times as far as football gameplay is concerned and why Madden is behind. Which is the initial question I rasied. Maybe you misinterpreted it but that was the real question. But dont get me wrong, both games do a good job on the main department that thier sopposed to do good in, and thats play a game of football. Whether Madden has a few hundred less tackling animations, or 2K3 has no running momentum, they both play one good game of football on the field. Responding only to the intelligent debate (mods are ignoring me ) Graphik I'll try to generally respond rather than break the points down. My general problem with madden gameplay is that it doesn't clearly seperate the football experience from the videogame experience. As a novice you can somewhat get the feel of playing football, calling the right play at the right time however I don't even know if this is true on defense. It's more of a feel of learn plays, patterns and techniques to succeed at the game rather than use football knowledge to pick plays and execute proper technique to succeed. Let me think of some examples. I don't think there are really any Ds in madden that are built for situations besides the extremes (running, hail maries). The others can work but there's no real logic to when and why you use them. This, I think, is one reason many people rely on B&R or want to stay away from playing zone so much. On offense, the best strategy is to find the plays that will get your men open b/c of AI issues and run motion to better succeed with running. Conversly, with 2k3 on D I know situations or patterns in play calling to make it better for me to call a Cover 2, Cover 3, different zone and man plays. I also know that if I think one way and my opponent crosses me up I can get burned with ANY of these plays b/c I guessed wrong. That's realistic. On offense, I can read the D on all pass plays before and after the snap and determine who will be open and why. On run plays my blocking occurs realistically based on the type of D and whether they call a pinch, twist, base, etc. making the open lanes change constantly. In terms of execution, I feel most madden players play on the D line not only b/c they want to sack the QB but b/c you can get lost playing mostly as an LB or DB. Also, humans do have momentum but most DBs are as fast or faster than RBs and get ran over rather than just overpersue. DEs/DTs/LBs may get faked on a natural juke but not many DBs. The momentum makes every player run like Olinesmen and also makes the special moves almost unnecessary in the game. Not to mention getting in perfect position with a DB many times does you no good. On offense, there's little reason to run short to medium routes and there aren't many that I remember anyway. Running the ball, many plays can easily be bounced outside and have to be on all out blitzes. Conversly, in 2k3, playing as an LB or Safety is as much if not more fun than playing offense. There are some AI glitches as well but for the most part if you call a play you can see from the diagram where your players will be and they play how they're supposed to in the play. Making a play on the ball is much easier and much more fun. Offensively, you can easily take what the D gives you just as you should. Running is very realistic the way holes open up and close and when it's appropriate to try to avoid a tackle rather than take the contact and break it with a stiff arm, shoulder charge or spin (players in the NFL spin out of tackles, not to avoid them). One thing I realized recently is though madden has more momentum (yes 2k3 does have some, just not enough) the biggest difference is how things work. For instance in madden the speed burst controls the momentum. Meaning you hold A and build it up effecting how well you can turn and change directions. In 2k3 this is done with the analog stick. If you don't push all the way on the analog stick you run a more controlled style and save some "momentum" for naturally avoiding tackles. A in 2k3 is for speed burst not momentum building. The running style is also geared more to making you pick the best option for the situation (juke, stutter, spin, stiff arm, speed burst, shoulder charge) rather than madden's style geared towards just avoiding tacklers really. Yes it needs more momentum but the style is more realistic in my opinion. There are other gameplay differences that I can think of but I'm sure that's more than enough for now. Anyone besides Graphik (since this is in direct response to you and I don't think I have to worry about you in terms of this) please don't respond to my post at all unless you have something intelligent to say.