Out of the Park 13 Review

[ey215]

Quote: Originally Posted by thevaliantx

Let's be honest here. Anyone that's played more than of the OOTP series in the past knows that this edition was more about changing the way things look in the interface. I hear some say that the player development model has gotten better, but if you hit the OOTP forums you find that not to be the case. I'm glad the reviewer mentioned the possibility of having more animations than the ball moving. The reality is that it's not going to happen. I disagree with the reviewer's notion that any added animations would be a bonus and not a necessity. Markus WAS going to have someone code 2D animations into OOTP 13, but it didn't happen. Why? Because too many folks on the OOTP forums trashed the idea and suggested that OOTP 13 would be nothing more than another console game if it it had any more animations. OOTP players, in general, hate the idea of having animations in OOTP. How did Markus manage to avoid the issue of not having animations in this version? By claiming that his ... uh ... other programmer had other obligations and didn't have the time to make the 2D engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be arguing that 2D animations are a necessity. I completely disagree. I've been playing text based sports games since MicroLeague baseball back on my Apple IIgs and have messed around in most of the genres (even pro wrestling).

I wasn't crazy about the idea of an animation engine when they put it into FM, but it has worked out well. I just don't think it would add enormously to the OOTP experience. The difference between the two games essentially is that in a game like soccer it's good to get a visual representation of where your players are on the pitch and how various tactics interact with the opposing team. Baseball is not a sport that really needs that.

Would I take a 2D engine? Sure. Is it a necessity? Not at all, and I'd rather the OOTP team spends valuable time and resources on other things.

[Jukeman]

Quote: Originally Posted by ey215

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be arguing that 2D animations are a necessity. I completely disagree. I've been playing text based sports games since MicroLeague baseball back on my Apple IIgs and have messed around in most of the genres (even pro wrestling). I wasn't crazy about the idea of an animation engine when they put it into FM, but it has worked out well. I just don't think it would add enormously to the OOTP experience. The difference between the two games essentially is that in a game like soccer it's good to get a visual representation of where your players are on the pitch and how various tactics interact with the opposing team. Baseball is not a sport that really needs that. Would I take a 2D engine? Sure. Is it a necessity? Not at all, and I'd rather the OOTP team spends valuable time and resources on other things.

Its def not a necessity but it will be a big bonus even if it was just 2d models running the bases and fielders moving towards the ball (ball animated better)

Graphics could be a plus, look at what facegens bring.

But I love the play by play text and it so detailed compare to other pbp text I've seen, it sucks me in with suspense so It really doesn't matter if they add some kind of graphics.

I was marking out when my team was in a 10th inning battle at home against the D'Backs.

Our lead off hitter for the inning gets a base hit, which was then followed by another base hit as our guy on 1st gambled his way to 3rd on a fly ball that dropped in for a single.

Next at-bats was a fly out followed by a strike out.

Pitcher up, so I called for a pinch hitter. Pinch hitter down on the count 0-2 with two foul balls.

But the 3rd pitch was a wild pitch that hit the backdrop which ended up bringing in the winning run for a 5-4 victory!

[thevaliantx]

Quote: Originally Posted by ey215

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be arguing that 2D animations are a necessity. I completely disagree. I've been playing text based sports games since MicroLeague baseball back on my Apple IIgs and have messed around in most of the genres (even pro wrestling). I wasn't crazy about the idea of an animation engine when they put it into FM, but it has worked out well. I just don't think it would add enormously to the OOTP experience. The difference between the two games essentially is that in a game like soccer it's good to get a visual representation of where your players are on the pitch and how various tactics interact with the opposing team. Baseball is not a sport that really needs that. Would I take a 2D engine? Sure. Is it a necessity? Not at all, and I'd rather the OOTP team spends valuable time and resources on other things.

Yeah, you're wrong. I never said that 2D animations are a necessity. I implied, correctly so, that there is a segment of the OOTP community that wants SOME SORT of animation (beyond a silly looking ball that just glides in a linear path across the screen), and that Markus (lead developer of the OOTP series) caved because posters on the OOTP forum that have thousands upon thousands of posts cried that it's not a necessity. Look, you can try and spin it any way you want, but this is not about what's a necessity and what isn't. It's about what the gamers WANT. You may not want 2D animations, and that's perfectly fine, but whether you want something or not does not by definition make something a necessity, or not.

I must chuckle at your assertion that soccer is so much more complex than baseball that it needs animations. Looks to me like it's a case of you wanting animations in your favorite game, but that its not okay if someone wants animations in their favorite game. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as how the OOTP spends their "valuable time", I believe that would be up to Markus & Gang. At this point, especially at the rate that MLB: The Show is going, Markus might want to evaluate whether redesigning the interface adding the ability to hold a a 500 team league (slight exaggeration there, but not off by much) are the sorts of things that are going to keep the OOTP series going strong. Reading the comments on the OOTP forums, playing MLB: The Show this year (it's a HUGE improvement over last year), and looking back at all my years of baseball gaming experience and my knowledge of the sport, I'd say that things don't look so rosy for OOTP. Yes, I've bought the last five versions of OOTP so I know what I'm talking about. ;-)

[ey215]

Quote: Originally Posted by thevaliantx

Yeah, you're wrong. I never said that 2D animations are a necessity. I implied, correctly so, that there is a segment of the OOTP community that wants SOME SORT of animation (beyond a silly looking ball that just glides in a linear path across the screen), and that Markus (lead developer of the OOTP series) caved because posters on the OOTP forum that have thousands upon thousands of posts cried that it's not a necessity. Look, you can try and spin it any way you want, but this is not about what's a necessity and what isn't. It's about what the gamers WANT. You may not want 2D animations, and that's perfectly fine, but whether you want something or not does not by definition make something a necessity, or not.

Ok, you weren't saying it's a necessity. That's fine, I guess I misread the post. Also, no it's not what "the" gamer want, it's what "some" gamers want, let's not blow this out of proportion. Game development is all about priorities. There are other things that I'd rather see fixed, but hey to each their own.

Quote: Originally Posted by thevaliantx

I must chuckle at your assertion that soccer is so much more complex than baseball that it needs animations. Looks to me like it's a case of you wanting animations in your favorite game, but that its not okay if someone wants animations in their favorite game. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't make that assertion, I actually really enjoyed CM/FM before even the basic circle engine, much less the 3D one. The point I was making is that in a sport like soccer (or for that matter football, basketball, or any sport where you have players in fairly constant movement) some type of graphics engine is more important than a sport like baseball where fundamentally a ground ball to short involves the pitcher, batter, shortstop and first baseman all making routine repetitive moves. It's actually a large reason that baseball translates to radio better than any other sport.

Quote: Originally Posted by thevaliantx

As far as how the OOTP spends their "valuable time", I believe that would be up to Markus & Gang. At this point, especially at the rate that MLB: The Show is going, Markus might want to evaluate whether redesigning the interface adding the ability to hold a a 500 team league (slight exaggeration there, but not off by much) are the sorts of things that are going to keep the OOTP series going strong. Reading the comments on the OOTP forums, playing MLB: The Show this year (it's a HUGE improvement over last year), and looking back at all my years of baseball gaming experience and my knowledge of the sport, I'd say that things don't look so rosy for OOTP. Yes, I've bought the last five versions of OOTP so I know what I'm talking about. ;-)

I'll have to disagree here, the markets for the The Show or 2k, while intersecting some are fairly different and with 13 by far being the best version of OOTP yet, and with more mainstream interest in the statistical side of baseball that the future of OOTP looks very bright.

I will say it again, when Markus & Co decide that it is a priority I'm fine with a graphics engine in the game. I just don't think we're at that point yet. With that being said, with the big improvements this year it's getting close to the point that we're more likely to see a graphics engine in the next couple of versions than ever before.

[thevaliantx]

Quote: Originally Posted by ey215

Ok, you weren't saying it's a necessity. That's fine, I guess I misread the post. Also, no it's not what "the" gamer want, it's what "some" gamers want, let's not blow this out of proportion. Game development is all about priorities. There are other things that I'd rather see fixed, but hey to each their own. I didn't make that assertion, I actually really enjoyed CM/FM before even the basic circle engine, much less the 3D one. The point I was making is that in a sport like soccer (or for that matter football, basketball, or any sport where you have players in fairly constant movement) some type of graphics engine is more important than a sport like baseball where fundamentally a ground ball to short involves the pitcher, batter, shortstop and first baseman all making routine repetitive moves. It's actually a large reason that baseball translates to radio better than any other sport. I'll have to disagree here, the markets for the The Show or 2k, while intersecting some are fairly different and with 13 by far being the best version of OOTP yet, and with more mainstream interest in the statistical side of baseball that the future of OOTP looks very bright. I will say it again, when Markus & Co decide that it is a priority I'm fine with a graphics engine in the game. I just don't think we're at that point yet. With that being said, with the big improvements this year it's getting close to the point that we're more likely to see a graphics engine in the next couple of versions than ever before.

I'm trying to take you seriously, but I just can't. It's not a priority, in your opinion, that 2D animations make their way into the OOTP series as of current, but you will be happy if Markus puts them in. Which is it?

I've been following sports for MANY years, and I've listened to many games of football, basketball and baseball over the radio, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that it is the talking mouthpiece (and his knowledge of said sport) that determines whether something happening on the field (or court) translates to radio broadcast or not.

Exactly what "big improvements" in OOTP 13 do you see, that warrants adding animations into the game? Yet another makeover of the bazillion buttons and textual links to click doesn't qualify.

Gamers DO want 2D animations in OOTP, not all of them, of course.

[injury log]

Quote: Originally Posted by thevaliantx

Let's be honest here. Anyone that's played more than of the OOTP series in the past knows that this edition was more about changing the way things look in the interface. I hear some say that the player development model has gotten better, but if you hit the OOTP forums you find that not to be the case. I'm glad the reviewer mentioned the possibility of having more animations than the ball moving. The reality is that it's not going to happen. I disagree with the reviewer's notion that any added animations would be a bonus and not a necessity. Markus WAS going to have someone code 2D animations into OOTP 13, but it didn't happen. Why? Because too many folks on the OOTP forums trashed the idea and suggested that OOTP 13 would be nothing more than another console game if it it had any more animations. OOTP players, in general, hate the idea of having animations in OOTP. How did Markus manage to avoid the issue of not having animations in this version? By claiming that his ... uh ... other programmer had other obligations and didn't have the time to make the 2D engine.

I volunteer as an OOTP beta tester, and what thevaliantx says above is a complete fabrication. Improving in-game animations is a high priority for the game's developers, but is also a complicated coding task. It was intended to be a major feature for this version of the game, but only if it was possible to do it properly. Real life obstacles intervened, and for that reason alone, priorities shifted for this version. The opinions of people on the OOTP forums had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And the player development model saw some significant changes this version, and the changes are obvious, so I don't know what the first paragraph of your post means. In the Amateur Draft, it is no longer the case that many High School pitchers are 2-pitch relievers. Most High School draftees now have at least some chance to develop into starting pitchers.

It's entirely fair to criticize OOTP, and in a game as complex as OOTP is, there will always be flaws. But I find it pretty disgusting to simply make things up and use your invented version of reality as the basis of your criticisms, especially on a public forum where many people won't be aware of what is true and what is not. If you were attacking McDonalds or Coca Cola, that would be one thing, but OOTP is a small business that needs all the sales it can get just to get by year after year. It shouldn't have to contend with people lying about the game on public forums.

[injury log]

I volunteer as an OOTP beta tester, and what thevaliantx says above is a complete fabrication. Improving in-game animations is a high priority for the game's developers, but is also a complicated coding task. It was intended to be a major feature for this version of the game, but only if it was possible to do it properly. Real life obstacles intervened, and for that reason alone, priorities shifted for this version. The opinions of people on the OOTP forums had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And the player development model saw some significant changes this version, and the changes are obvious, so I don't know what the first paragraph of your post means. In the Amateur Draft, it is no longer the case that many High School pitchers are 2-pitch relievers. Most High School draftees now have at least some chance to develop into starting pitchers.

It's entirely fair to criticize OOTP, and in a game as complex as OOTP is, there will always be flaws. But I find it pretty disgusting to simply make things up and use your invented version of reality as the basis of your criticisms, especially on a public forum where many people won't be aware of what is true and what is not. If you were attacking McDonalds or Coca Cola, that would be one thing, but OOTP is a small business that needs all the sales it can get just to get by year after year. It shouldn't have to contend with people lying about the game on public forums.

[injury log]

Sorry for the double-post