Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

He was hurt most his rookie season, and Singletary straighted his attitude out in year 3... so after his 2nd year in the NFL people were calling him a bust. Talk about knee jerk.

That's the way it works. You come out as the sixth overall pick and put up three very average seasons heading into the highest paid years of your contract and it's going to garner that kind of reaction. Obviously, it didn't turn out to be that way but at the time I'm sure there were plenty of people feeling like it was a bust at that time.

[gjneff]

I'd like to see Rookies across the board have lower ratings. I think M12 did a good job with it. I don't think anybody should be entering the league at much higher than an 80. I think they should change how potential works as well and let them progress or digress based on age and production.

Why can't a rookie come in and be good? Suh was THE most dominating interior lineman his rookie year. They should be rated as what they feel their skills are. If that means they come in as one of the best in the game then so be it.

Also, physically and skill wise, top rookies aren't much if any worse than vets. It is the mental ratings that need to have the most difference. Luck for example probably won't get much more accurate after being in the league, but he will learn his offense and where to go with the ball better.

[gjneff]

That's the way it works. You come out as the sixth overall pick and put up three very average seasons heading into the highest paid years of your contract and it's going to garner that kind of reaction. Obviously, it didn't turn out to be that way but at the time I'm sure there were plenty of people feeling like it was a bust at that time.

He had 52 catches in 14 games his 2nd season. How is that a bust for a TE? In 2010 he had 56 catches in 16 games, nobody called him a bust then.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

Why can't a rookie come in and be good? Suh was THE most dominating interior lineman his rookie year. They should be rated as what they feel their skills are. If that means they come in as one of the best in the game then so be it.

Also, physically and skill wise, top rookies aren't much if any worse than vets. It is the mental ratings that need to have the most difference. Luck for example probably won't get much more accurate after being in the league, but he will learn his offense and where to go with the ball better.

I didn't say they can't come in and be good but at this point we don't know anything about who's going to be good or bad. For every Ndamukong Suh there's probably ten plus Ryan Sims out there. Rookies, especially QB's, are generally going to struggle a bit. Luck as highly touted as he is, is more than likely going to throw a bunch of picks this year, as is Griffin. I'm not saying you give Griffin 60 for speed just because he's a rookie but AWR and even pass accuracy should be tapered a bit to compensate for him being a rookie.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

He had 52 catches in 14 games his 2nd season. How is that a bust for a TE? In 2010 he had 56 catches in 16 games, nobody called him a bust then.

Because he followed that up with a whopping 31 catches in his third season. And in 2010 he was coming of a season where he caught 13 TD's and went to the Pro Bowl. Then in 2011 he had almost twice the amount of yards with those 56 catches than he did with the 52 catches in his second season.

[KBLover]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

I'm not saying you give Griffin 60 for speed just because he's a rookie but AWR and even pass accuracy should be tapered a bit to compensate for him being a rookie.

AWR is a mental rating - so that makes a lot of sense to have it lower to start.

Accuracy - maybe somewhat, but AWR should take care of the INTs he throws (bad decisions/telegraph throws). S/M/DAC should be completion percentage/place ball on the spot. Whether or not that spot is a good one should be based on AWR, imo. To me, it shouldn't be "because he's a rookie", but does he have the skill to place the ball on a spot vs the speed of the NFL game.

Also, consistency could be 1-2 star, DPP might start off lower (especially Sense Pressure until/unless he has a grasp of dealing with an NFL pass rush). Could also use Force Passes to account for the INTs too.

But I agree with those who think it should be mental and technique ratings (AWR, PRC, Coverages, Traits, etc) but whatever it does to OVR should be irrelevant. OVR doesn't matter to how the players play - it shouldn't be a factor in the ratings (don't just lower/increase something so the OVR stacks up a certain way, for example, don't give someone a 15 AWR just to "keep his OVR from being too high").

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

But I agree with those who think it should be mental and technique ratings (AWR, PRC, Coverages, Traits, etc) but whatever it does to OVR should be irrelevant. OVR doesn't matter to how the players play - it shouldn't be a factor in the ratings (don't just lower/increase something so the OVR stacks up a certain way, for example, don't give someone a 15 AWR just to "keep his OVR from being too high").

Exactly. I think they should either just do away with the OVR altogether or hide it. And then on top of that only give guys ratings that actually pertain to their position. It makes no sense for anybody other than K/P to have a KPW and KAC rating. Same goes for DL with pass blocking attributes and such.

[mpeterso]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

I didn't say they can't come in and be good but at this point we don't know anything about who's going to be good or bad. For every Ndamukong Suh there's probably ten plus Ryan Sims out there. Rookies, especially QB's, are generally going to struggle a bit. Luck as highly touted as he is, is more than likely going to throw a bunch of picks this year, as is Griffin. I'm not saying you give Griffin 60 for speed just because he's a rookie but AWR and even pass accuracy should be tapered a bit to compensate for him being a rookie.

I agree that before the season starts it's hard to justify having rookie ovr's much higher than 80-83. However, once the season starts I think some guys warrant 90+ ovr ratings. For example, I'd argue guys like Earl Campbell, Lawrence Taylor, Randy Moss, Dick Lane, Eric Dickerson etc could be pegged as 90-95+ ovr players by week 5 of their rookie seasons. In fact, some all time greats, guys like Campbell and Gayle Sayers, who really only dominated their first 3-4 seasons in the NFL before fading, would've been worthy of 95+ ovr right out of the box.

[btemp]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, its incredibly silly that Madden doesn't utilize the full range of possible numbers (0-99). In all categories (OVR, SPD, THP, etc.) the useful range is only 30 pts (70-99). Ratings would be more relevant, and interesting, if it was worthwhile having players in the 40s on the team. As it stands there is a huge glut of players in that 70 and 80 range.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, its incredibly silly that Madden doesn't utilize the full range of possible numbers (0-99). In all categories (OVR, SPD, THP, etc.) the useful range is only 30 pts (70-99). Ratings would be more relevant, and interesting, if it was worthwhile having players in the 40s on the team. As it stands there is a huge glut of players in that 70 and 80 range.

I did this with the FBG ratings to pretty solid results. Utilization of the 0-99 scale is key in achieving player differentiation.

[mpeterso]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, its incredibly silly that Madden doesn't utilize the full range of possible numbers (0-99). In all categories (OVR, SPD, THP, etc.) the useful range is only 30 pts (70-99). Ratings would be more relevant, and interesting, if it was worthwhile having players in the 40s on the team. As it stands there is a huge glut of players in that 70 and 80 range.

How many 0 SPD players are there in the NFL? How many 5 STR players? How many qbs have 10 accuracy?

A 1 OVR player would literally be 50 times worse than a 50 OVR player - is that even possible? A 10 OVR player would be 9 times worse than a 90 OVR player? Even that seems like a stretch. Same goes with player attributes; how many players are 9 or 10 times stronger, faster, quicker, better than their professional peers?

I think there are limits to how much attributes can be stretched and still be realistic. I mean, as it is now there are defensive players with TKL less than 30, FMV, PMV, AWR, PRC, CTH, POW etc less 40. Same goes with offensive players with blocking less than 25, AWR and route running less than 40. These players are almost useless as it is.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

How many 0 SPD players are there in the NFL? How many 5 STR players? How many qbs have 10 accuracy?

A 1 OVR player would literally be 50 times worse than a 50 OVR player - is that even possible? A 10 OVR player would be 9 times worse than a 90 OVR player? Even that seems like a stretch. Same goes with player attributes; how many players are 9 or 10 times stronger, faster, quicker, better than their professional peers?

I think there are limits to how much attributes can be stretched and still be realistic. I mean, as it is now there are defensive players with TKL less than 30, FMV, PMV, AWR, PRC, CTH, POW etc less 40. Same goes with offensive players with blocking less than 25, AWR and route running less than 40. These players are almost useless as it is.

I think that if the data dictates a wide variance, the game should reflect it. Strength is one attribute that I agree with you on, however. Are Ps and Ks REALLY in the 20s and 10s for STR in comparison to other positions? Don't you think a punter who is 6-2, 220 would have a decent amount of strength to not warrant such a low STR rating? Did you know that Alex Zendejas can squat 600lbs!? Jay Feeley and Sean Landeta have both squatted 500! That is NOT weak by any stretch of the imagination. For comparison, Adrian Peterson only boasts a squat of 550 (530 in college). So to say that these Ks and Ps are so much weaker than some of these other players is unrealistic.

[khaliib]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

How many 0 SPD players are there in the NFL? How many 5 STR players? How many qbs have 10 accuracy?

A 1 OVR player would literally be 50 times worse than a 50 OVR player - is that even possible? A 10 OVR player would be 9 times worse than a 90 OVR player? Even that seems like a stretch. Same goes with player attributes; how many players are 9 or 10 times stronger, faster, quicker, better than their professional peers?

I think there are limits to how much attributes can be stretched and still be realistic. I mean, as it is now there are defensive players with TKL less than 30, FMV, PMV, AWR, PRC, CTH, POW etc less 40. Same goes with offensive players with blocking less than 25, AWR and route running less than 40. These players are almost useless as it is.

This is were the confusion seems to be at.

It's not about trying to correlate the attributes to Real Life numbers, can't do it because we do not control coding the under-the-hood thresholds for each rating.

I see this being mentioned alot on here and much confusion going on here.

It's about trying to get AI player's to perform Gameplay wise with how they've coded a rating to react to give the "Perception" of movements.

We say Realism, and try and match ratings with Real Life numbers thinking the game's AI will perform accordingly and it simply will/does not.

Examples:
Speed Rating -> people try and match real 40 times with EA's ratings system while missing some very important facts as to why this doesn't work.

-player's don't run faster just because we give them a 95 SPD rating to match his real life 40.

-at 95 SPD, player's "Slide/Glide" covering 5 yrds in about 3 steps from start to finish, giving the perception that they are covering ground.

-what is getting lost are animations/movements within the game.
-any SPD rating over 78, you start to lose animations and get the Slide/Glide.

-also, because animations are playing out on such a small field, SPD ratings above 78 minimize greatly the possibility of running after-the-catch/in space because there is no room for animations to play out properly.

I could go deeper, but in a nutshell, it's about knowing what rating thresholds drive what particular animation to play out by the "AI", because these thresholds aren't coded/programmed to mimick Real Life tendencies.

Therfore, we must take the current ratings system and how it is coded/programmed to drive animations and adjust player's/positions to try and force the AI to trigger those animations accordingly.

Side note:
The way ratings are weighted into the OVR, it would be impossible for your example of a 1 OVR player existing in this game.
-They end it at 12 within a specific position when the position ratings are dropped to the lower end of the 0-99 scale.

-A 12 OVR player will animate in certain area's no different than a 50 OVR rated player at the same position.

-The only difference is the AI response to the direction the (Hum) stick is pushed to run and/or the button we push to catch/tackle give the perception the player is performing worse at such a low rating.

I"ve adjusted the QB Accuracy Slider to 100, and edited QB Accuracy Ratings (short-med-long) from 35-60 and it seems to give more control towards creating a difference in QB's (accuracy wise) than utilizing the reverse method of adjusting the Slider down to 5-15 as some have done.
-AWR rating and Force Pass Tendency impacts this area also.

Another rating that causes animations to play out more Realistic is setting LB Tackling from 45-60 with Hit Power at 75.
-It seems to cause RB's with high Truck rating to animate lowering their shoulder more often and RB's with high Elusiveness to animate more Spins/Juke animations to break tackles while LB's still animate Agressive tackle attempts.

The way animations are coded/tied to EA's ratings structure is just wacky.
The animation you think is driven by a certain rating, turns out to be driven by another rating or combination of ratings.

Just wacky on all fronts, really!!!

[gjneff]

Re: Charting the Change in Rookie Ratings in Madden

Because he followed that up with a whopping 31 catches in his third season. And in 2010 he was coming of a season where he caught 13 TD's and went to the Pro Bowl. Then in 2011 he had almost twice the amount of yards with those 56 catches than he did with the 52 catches in his second season.

Well this isn't the thread for this, but as someone that watches every game he's played that is a bad way to judge him. With his 31 catches, he was still a pro bowl alternate. He was/is one of, if not the best, blocking TE in the league. The reason he had 31 catches is because Martz rarely used him and when they did, they didn't use him correctly for his skill set. He was an extra pass blocker most of the time that season.

[majesty95]

I think it is dependent on how the ratings impact the game and how the progression is. If the core ability still allow a rookie to be pretty good, then the overall doesn't matter. Also, if the progression allows a 72 OVR rookie to develop into a 90 OVR starter occasionally that seems realistic. Now, if those things were still the same as in Madden 07 then we would have an issue.