EA/Madden Likeness Lawsuit Moving Forward...

[roadman]

As for a business losing money over lawsuits, depends on the size of the lawsuit, but some jobs could be at stake, which is never a good thing for anyone.

Plus, it takes two to tangle for a business partnership to develop, so, the NFL is just as much to blame as anyone else.

I want competition as much as the next person does, but until the NFL abandons their business model, things will be status quo for awhile.

[Junior Moe]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

As long as one game has access to the shield I doubt this happens. Casuals will take the game that has the real stadiums and replicated unis. The generic game won't be authentic enough to get their attention. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see this as a positive at all. It makes it riskier to do generic games for fear of being sued over likenesses, if anything. Safer to just stick to professional leagues and real players you can get a license for and pay them accordingly.

I think that a licensed game with clearly generic rosters could work, provided it has authentic schools, teams, arenas and stadiums. NFL is out of the question, though. Look at how safe 2K was with college players and non signed legends in NBA 2K. The college players were generic as heck, but they looked real. Some even looked like spliced, younger hybrids of NBA players. Their names and numbers were generic as could be. But we had the real teams and courts and a collegiate atmosphere. I think that's what most people want. The nonlicensed players on the classic teams are given numbers 99, 98 or 97. Then are named "John Smith". In both cases it would be hard to sue for likeness. Now is a game like that a worthy investment? That's the question. I think NCAA Football would be; NCAA Basketball, not sure.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by Junior Moe

I think that a licensed game with clearly generic rosters could work, provided it has authentic schools, teams, arenas and stadiums. NFL is out of the question, though. Look at how safe 2K was with college players and non signed legends in NBA 2K. The college players were generic as heck, but they looked real. Some even looked like spliced, younger hybrids of NBA players. Their names and numbers were generic as could be. But we had the real teams and courts and a collegiate atmosphere. I think that's what most people want. The nonlicensed players on the classic teams are given numbers 99, 98 or 97. Then are named "John Smith". In both cases it would be hard to sue for likeness. Now is a game like that a worthy investment? That's the question. I think NCAA Football would be; NCAA Basketball, not sure.

That's the question, and I'm not sure I think even NCAA football would be. EA used the foundation of madden for their college game and truth is that it didn't sell tons of copies. A stand alone college game that had to pay for all its development cost with just its own sales might not be a worthy investment. When you add the chance of getting sued over likenesses that can be anything from jersey numbers, to height/weight, to some other vague similarity and it gets really dicey.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by purplerat

You can complain about the people doing the suing all you want but this is all on EA and their exclusive license.

EA had used the likenesses of historic players as far back as Madden NFL 2001, likely earlier. In fact, someone can spot check me on this but I don't recall any recent Madden game (from Madden NFL 06 on, when the exclusive license kicked in) even having historic teams in the game for retired players to sue about. Finally, since retired players are not members of the NFL Players Association, they are free to license their likeness to anyone they choose.

This literally has nothing to do with the exclusive license.

[tril]

Quote: Originally Posted by Junior Moe

I think that a licensed game with clearly generic rosters could work, provided it has authentic schools, teams, arenas and stadiums. NFL is out of the question, though. Look at how safe 2K was with college players and non signed legends in NBA 2K. The college players were generic as heck, but they looked real. Some even looked like spliced, younger hybrids of NBA players. Their names and numbers were generic as could be. But we had the real teams and courts and a collegiate atmosphere. I think that's what most people want. The nonlicensed players on the classic teams are given numbers 99, 98 or 97. Then are named "John Smith". In both cases it would be hard to sue for likeness. Now is a game like that a worthy investment? That's the question. I think NCAA Football would be; NCAA Basketball, not sure.

you're right. I think on the college level, generic rosters could work as long as teh schools are authentic.

CH2k8 shipped with generic rosters, and that didnt diminish the game one bit.
College football might be different, becasue of a biger more hardcore fan base. But again I think as long as the schools and conferences are authentic then it wont make a difference.

The beauty of college sports game legacy modes are that the player turn over rate is high. ts 4 years years so rosters become generic quickly anyways.
In addition, the EA college football title and 2k College hoops had more than solid gameplay and a robust recruiting mode, which keeps the game fresh.

just give users the option to edit and customize rosters.
with the popularity of college sports on teh increase, these games will sell.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by tril

CH2k8 shipped with generic rosters, and that didnt diminish the game one bit.

In the eyes of the case law established in these recent court cases involving EA Sports NCAA Football, College Hoops 2K8 absolutely did not ship with generic rosters, rather it shipped with the likenesses of some 3600 players on disc (rough estimate of 12 players per team * 300 teams).

According to the precedent established by these cases, the white UNC PF #50 who was 6'9" and 250 lbs with great ratings in the game was the likeness of Tyler Hansbrough. To that end, should former college players sue Take 2 Interactive about their likenesses appearing in College Hoops 2K games, they'd win.

Your point about roster turnover rate in college sports is valid, especially for career-mode oriented customers, but the games still leveraged the star power of the most prominent college athletes to sell copies, and without that any truly generic college game would struggle in ways that NCAA Football and College Hoops 2K did not. I also think that, given the graphical expectations of console video games nowadays, a generic college game would struggle a bit, especially as the pro counterparts are including real-life faces for every player, and in some cases tattoos as well.

[Junior Moe]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

That's the question, and I'm not sure I think even NCAA football would be. EA used the foundation of madden for their college game and truth is that it didn't sell tons of copies. A stand alone college game that had to pay for all its development cost with just its own sales might not be a worthy investment. When you add the chance of getting sued over likenesses that can be anything from jersey numbers, to height/weight, to some other vague similarity and it gets really dicey.

That's why I think that it's EA or bust with regards to college football. Same with 2K and NCAA Basketball. They are the only ones with the resources, and an engine already. Plus, they only recently ended the NCAA series. The NCAA Football series sold 3 to 4 million copies, IIRC (not sure though). So there's a market there. Especially now with the playoffs. As far as lawsuits, I would imagine that they could include a disclaimer like "none of the players in this game are meant to represent any current or former collegiate athlete". And actually make them not. Like how Madden was before they got the NFLPA license.

[Junior Moe]

Quote: Originally Posted by tril

you're right. I think on the college level, generic rosters could work as long as teh schools are authentic. CH2k8 shipped with generic rosters, and that didnt diminish the game one bit. College football might be different, becasue of a biger more hardcore fan base. But again I think as long as the schools and conferences are authentic then it wont make a difference. The beauty of college sports game legacy modes are that the player turn over rate is high. ts 4 years years so rosters become generic quickly anyways. In addition, the EA college football title and 2k College hoops had more than solid gameplay and a robust recruiting mode, which keeps the game fresh. just give users the option to edit and customize rosters. with the popularity of college sports on teh increase, these games will sell.

Yep. But they would have to be generic. Like totally! Not facsimiles or anything cute. For Legacy people like myself it's not a problem. But I won't lie, I did like having the "real" players in CH2K and NCAA Football and drafting them into NBA2K and Madden, respectively. The lawsuits killed that and I do believe that the collegiate players are being exploited in a sense. But that's neither here nor there. I'm fine with not being able to edit the default stock players. As long as my Bulldogs play a pro style offense and run the rock I don't care that the RB is an 81 overall White guy named Caleb Brooks instead of Nick Chubb. Like you said, both games had great gameplay (and better features to me) and both engines (Madden and NBA 2K) have only gotten better. I think NCAA Football would be a smash with Madden's engine tuned and that collegiate atmosphere with our appetite for college football. CH2K with the latest 2K engine would be special. But would it sell enough to justify the costs? I don't know. Not unless it was packed with micro-transactions.