Madden NFL 17 Championship Recap

[N51_rob]

I watch this being as open minded as I could be, couple of thoughts.

-This brand of madden doesn't appeal to me personally. I am a "sim" guy. But I am also old enough to know that there is a large(r) community that the sim crowd that loves this and supports this so. Good for them and EA and these guys. I mean that with all sincerity.

-While these guys are obviously skilled and put the time in to learn the ins, outs and limitations of the AI. After a while the games all start to look the same with only 3-4 formations and 5-6 plays being called and then the audibles. But to me that is just boring after a while.

-The one thing EA and the leaders of this community will need to figure out is how to police the toxicity of the community. Mods to a good job, but the chat is just toxic and a huge turn off.

-Lastly, I really hope that with the three different game modes in Madden 18 that each gets the TLC that the MUT/Competative modes have received in years past.

[T4VERTS]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I'd argue the mainstream cultural appeal of Madden has always been the competitive experience, be it couch multiplayer or later online multiplayer. #MaddenSeason, etc. Sure there are plenty of franchise guys or "sim" guys, but the competitive appeal is why Madden has been one of the most popular online console games since online play on consoles was introduced in 2002, and why Ultimate Team has been so wildly successful since it was introduced in 2009. People enjoy competition, and sports games like Madden are by their very nature competitive.

It's competitive in that the game is about two teams competing, but so is any game with a H2H multiplayer mode. That does not mean all can make it as an Esport.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

That's not to say Madden doesn't have to adapt their game to be a wildly successful E-Sports game (as opposed to a niche e-sports game, which it already is and has been for at least a decade); they do, you are correct on that point. The game doesn't offer enough user agency on the field, the game's skill floor is too high, and the game's skill ceiling is too low. That's why we've seeing an increase in not only the number of meaningful and masterable user gameplay mechanics over the past two years - be it the new tackle controls, the new running controls, the new catching controls, and this year apparently new passing controls - but also the breadth and depth of teaching tools in the game - Skills Trainer, on-field visual aids and move prompts, automatic RB controls and one-button modes on lower difficulties, etc. etc.

I can agree they are doing better to "train".

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

You are also correct that the game has to walk the line between user mechanical mastery and player ratings affecting results, lest all the money people spend on new Ultimate Team cards be for naught. The fact that Madden is an NFL game absolutely matters and EA can't lose sight of that. This is an achievable goal, however, and it's something Madden has been balancing since its inception.

This is where I wonder if they are losing course. Your user base of competitive gamer's want the ratings and dice rolls to mean less. If player A and Player B have different names but play the same are is there really anything special about one being called Julio Jones and one being Bob Smith? We know this matters to CFM, Casual play and go users, and some MUT users because the ratings assigned to these guys affect outcome. What we don't know is, does this matter to the competitive set if all players play the same? My hypothesis is that it doesn't, but that is the billion dollar question EA is going to find out with these changes next year.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Clarification question - who are you identifying as Madden's "core customer base"?

The core customer are going to be CFM, and average MUT players. While there is crossover, all competitive players play MUT, but all MUT players are not interested in "competitive" gaming. Obviously, this goes back to your contention that the whole game is "competitive" but let's for the sake of this refer to competitive as the idea of win at all cost with the goal of receiving recognition/prizes (leader board standings, money, giveaways, etc.). For instance I will play MUT, but have no interest in doing anything besides building a team and collecting cards. Using the team against others isn't a big deal to me

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Regardless, I think that expanding the game's competitive appeal, lowering its skill floor, and increasing its skill ceiling will increase its appeal as a video game, regardless of its genre or licensing. Good games with good marketing will find an audience, great games with great marketing will find a bigger one. Madden is probably comfortably in the "good game" group right now, relative to everything else on the market. Making a mechanically better video game will increase the size of the core audience beyond whatever it is today. It literally and figuratively moves the goal posts.

While we may not agree on how they go about it, I agree with the general idea here.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

How would they prove this one way or the other, given that Madden the video game and the NFL licensing go hand-in-hand?

This isn't so much about "proving" as it is understanding the potential future threats to your business. Understanding, and admitting to yourself, part of your dominance has been an exclusive license is the first step. Then understanding that you are POSSIBLY proving the concept for a competitor that licensing isn't needed for a specific mode, by changes your making to your game, could be a detriment down the line. Obviously they can't prove anything, but it should be analyzed going in and as they go.


CM Hooe- Good conversation, we may have to get together on a podcast and do this live. I think it could be a well thought out discussion that some would find entertaining.

[4thQtrStre5S]

I think ratings will always matter to the competitive/tourney players. And when they make their teams, there are many ways to go about choosing which top players to use, but of course, in MUT, if you got SS Paul Krause, you are gonna use him, because he is that good.

There is actually a great deal of difference between players, but they are subtle.

I don't know that "core" players are the future of Madden. No offense, but the game is seeing where it can be most profitable and it is competitive.

I look at it like this example, I am a core Metallica fan; I haven't bought an album from them since "And Justice for All" but yet they are more valuable as a business, than they were back with just their "core" fans.

Strategy is big in competitive play, and regardless of what some may think, using a handful of formations and then hot routing to attacking the defense as it is being shown post-snap, is very much a strategy, and even more so than just choosing a bunch of formations..IMO

[Thunderhorse]

Quote: Originally Posted by T4VERTS

This is where I wonder if they are losing course. Your user base of competitive gamer's want the ratings and dice rolls to mean less. If player A and Player B have different names but play the same are is there really anything special about one being called Julio Jones and one being Bob Smith? We know this matters to CFM, Casual play and go users, and some MUT users because the ratings assigned to these guys affect outcome. What we don't know is, does this matter to the competitive set if all players play the same? My hypothesis is that it doesn't, but that is the billion dollar question EA is going to find out with these changes next year.

I think this is such a great topic.

I put Madden down for years because I was competitive and the lack of control that I felt playing that game was infuriating. When the AI would let me down in Madden, in those ways all of us are intimately familiar with, it made the experience incredibly negative. Eventually I figured out I would probably be happier avoiding the experience all together, and I stopped playing Madden after 2013.

Without getting to deep into the subject, when looking at a competitor's title (such as 2K's) I ask myself is EA too far behind.

I can play a full basketball game entirely with other users without ever having to hold anything other than myself or another human user accountable. I didn't even like basketball before I started playing 2K15, now I buy 2K every year because I've yet to find another experience where I can play with my friends as teammates in a competitive environment since I played sports.

As I've gotten older, the player names mean less to me personally but the competitive spirit within myself has not waned. My experience with the park and Pro-Am in 2K have showed me that perhaps a football game that incorporates those same principles (teamwork, fundamentally sound mechanics, etc.) could work without NFL players, at least for me personally.

As the game is now, I don't know if it's possible to create that experience. I get the vibe OTP is back this year and it will be interesting to see how that works. I think the game has a lot more mechanics that simulate fundamentals than it used too, and it's probably possible to really illustrate that with multiple users on one side of the ball, but these animations still don't do enough and there is an insufficient number to create a game environment where the user can always trust their eyes, or even accurately simulate differences between skill types.

2K really has something going with the park and pro-am. EA has got to figure out how to match that. Football is the greatest team sport in our society bar none.

[TTD71]

EA's best chance to make anything related to Madden a true competitive e-sport would be to develop a 7-on-7 mode and allow users to play each of the on-field positions.

http://aaufootball.org/Rules/7on7.aspx

These are all the rage with kids and college recruiters and it offers a real opportunity for EA to attach a true competitive E-sport to the Madden franchise. Allow the users to control the QB and all 5 eligible receivers. If you really wanted to make it a team-based event, require a volleyball like rotation, where each team member would rotate through the positions, including one play every 7 where they would play as either a DT or the C and be ineligible for a pass...

Hell, you could take the concept down to 3 man teams really easy too....each play one person is QB, one person is WR and one person is lineman...or any combination in between. The idea is a competitive e-sport is nothing to do with real football anyway, so why try to force 11-on-11 action anyway?

The disgrace to EA Sports' Madden developers is not the play style of the players or the tactics that break the AI and the game that were on full display. It was the fact that something as fundamental to football as control of the Line of Scrimmage was a total after thought in "Salary Cap" mode. If all of the competitors were obsessed with getting high dollar QBs and WRs and CBs (as they all were because that was what mattered for a successful offense), then someone should have been able to dominate their offensive or defensive lines by getting highly rated linemen and a dependable running back to control the clock and win the whole thing.

Problem was closest I saw to doing this, but ultimately even he had the QB/WR/CB dominate most of his cap space. If EA built a game that allowed competitors to actually choose different tactics and compete on a level field, THEN they could stay with 11-on-11 "football" as the basis for their e-sport game...as it is, they made a game where linemen essentially mean nothing and the rest flows from there.

Go full 7-on-7 or make the line of scrimmage meaningful to strategy and success but stop trying to have it both ways....

[Culture Rot]

Most of these guys dont even strike me as football fans. Its more a video gamer crowd.

[bigboyc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thunderhorse

I think this is such a great topic. I put Madden down for years because I was competitive and the lack of control that I felt playing that game was infuriating. When the AI would let me down in Madden, in those ways all of us are intimately familiar with, it made the experience incredibly negative. Eventually I figured out I would probably be happier avoiding the experience all together, and I stopped playing Madden after 2013. Without getting to deep into the subject, when looking at a competitor's title (such as 2K's) I ask myself is EA too far behind. I can play a full basketball game entirely with other users without ever having to hold anything other than myself or another human user accountable. I didn't even like basketball before I started playing 2K15, now I buy 2K every year because I've yet to find another experience where I can play with my friends as teammates in a competitive environment since I played sports. As I've gotten older, the player names mean less to me personally but the competitive spirit within myself has not waned. My experience with the park and Pro-Am in 2K have showed me that perhaps a football game that incorporates those same principles (teamwork, fundamentally sound mechanics, etc.) could work without NFL players, at least for me personally. As the game is now, I don't know if it's possible to create that experience. I get the vibe OTP is back this year and it will be interesting to see how that works. I think the game has a lot more mechanics that simulate fundamentals than it used too, and it's probably possible to really illustrate that with multiple users on one side of the ball, but these animations still don't do enough and there is an insufficient number to create a game environment where the user can always trust their eyes, or even accurately simulate differences between skill types. 2K really has something going with the park and pro-am. EA has got to figure out how to match that. Football is the greatest team sport in our society bar none.

Cleverly disguised: "2k needs to make football" post....lol. 2k has YET to figure out how to make a sports game that is not a LAG fest online. They have had YEARS to figure it out. Their online head to head is just bad.

[SolidSquid]

Quote: Originally Posted by xlatinoheatx

Most of these guys dont even strike me as football fans. Its more a video gamer crowd.

They are gamers, they game the AI with swerve running and play calls(corner routes always open) but when you're playing for money that is to be expected. My only issue with it isn't with the competeive/tourney gamers themselves but the fact that the game, atleast up until 18s release, just seems to be catered to them. Case and point is swerve running, why are 11 defenders reacting the same way to the ball carrier whether they are 2 yards or 22 yards away? Why is there no inertia/momentum? It's just leads to the AI being exploited which isn't exactly football.