Legitimate gripe with some of the All-Time Legends ratings...

[aakaido]

No, for sure they'd be starters, I don't think there's any doubt about that. Draymond Green is just like Bill Russell. Great a individual and team defense, high bball IQ but not someone you'd run the the offense through or for. I don't know about Russell's assist numbers but I wouldn't be shocked if they were fairly decent for center in his era. Depending on what team he is on this era, he could be an all star DPOY or just a good player who played for defense but never got truly recognized because of his crappy team. I feel the same about Draymond.

Wilt is another story altogether. He could still be a 20&10 player, but I'm not particularly sure. After watching highlights of him, it just stands out that no one could really challenge his height and athleticism, or really tried to for that matter. Yea he's athletic, but it looks s*** ton better than what it really is when no one can really challenge you to begin with.

With zone defense and double teaming no longer illegal, no hand checking, a smaller size paint, defensive/offensive 3 seconds in the key violation, 5 seconds back to basket violation, AND offensive goaltending rules all in place... Jesus that's alot of rules lol. These are the things that made centers completely dominant before they were in place, and practically obsolete with them now in place. Factor in that over half the players are now as athletic as him, and that guards can play defense, block a center's shot from behind, and can dunk on them... It doesn't look so good for him. He could adjust and better, but we'll never know if his game was only suited for the rules in place then as opposed to now.

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[VDusen04]

Quote: Originally Posted by aakaido

Wilt is another story altogether. He could still be a 20&10 player, but I'm not particularly sure. After watching highlights of him, it just stands out that no one could really challenge his height and athleticism, or really tried to for that matter. Yea he's athletic, but it looks s*** ton better than what it really is when no one can really challenge you to begin with. With zone defense and double teaming no longer illegal, no hand checking, a smaller size paint, defensive/offensive 3 seconds in the key violation, 5 seconds back to basket violation, AND offensive goaltending rules all in place... Jesus that's alot of rules lol. These are the things that made centers completely dominant before they were in place, and practically obsolete with them now in place. Factor in that over half the players are now as athletic as him, and that guards can play defense, block a center's shot from behind, and can dunk on them... It doesn't look so good for him. He could adjust and better, but we'll never know if his game was only suited for the rules in place then as opposed to now. Sent from my SM-G925T using Operation Sports mobile app

I suppose there's not really a right answer here because we're never going to find out.

That said, Wilt Chamberlain's freakish all-around athleticism seems as though it'd transcend any era of basketball we've seen up to this point. On top of excelling at basketball, he was also a track star at Kansas and Big Eight high jump champion. This guy was huge, skilled, coordinated, and in great shape (he averaged over 45 minutes per game for his entire career, including one season where he averaged over 48 minutes).

Here's another way I look at it: Andre Drummond is currently averaging 15 points and 17 rebounds per game. As someone who's watched Andre Drummond since his rookie year, I can confirm that he has just about zero offensive game. He's averaging 15 points right now off of rolling to the hoop, offensive rebounds, and an average of three made free throws. He has one post move and it's both predictable and completely unreliable (jump hook). And yet, here he is averaging 15 points per game, all while being one of the worst conditioned players in the league.

Knowing that, I can't imagine someone like Wilt Chamberlain—who actually did know how to play basketball on the offensive end—not dropping at least 20 a night and likely a lot more.

As for who was around to challenge Chamberlain at the time, it seems like we pretty readily forget about guys like Walt Bellamy (6'11'' 225), Nate Thurmond (6'11'' 235), Bob Lanier (6'11'' 265), Elvin Hayes (6'9'' 235) and numerous other bruisers that size and larger (beyond Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Willis Reed). Even today, Wilt would be a giant imposing figure who could and would assert his will upon the game.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who was still almost scraping the top of the backboard off a drop step at 36 years old.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

[jmarcguy]

The league being so perimeter focused would hurt the big guys from years past. Not to further derail the topic but let me throw this out. Shooting is definitely better than ever. Whereas there were perimeter specialists years ago, now nearly every player can shoot the three. What I don't get is how rare players post up. I watched some of a game the other night and one team would miss an outside shot & the other team would race down and then someone would penetrate and kick it out. Then that player missed & the opponent would race up the court and do the same thing. This went on for a few possessions & I thought "why won't someone set up down low to give a different look". The pace was frenetic but shots weren't falling. It's just not entertaining to me. There are plenty of talented players but few use post moves.

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[aakaido]

Quote: Originally Posted by jmarcguy

The league being so perimeter focused would hurt the big guys from years past. Not to further derail the topic but let me throw this out. Shooting is definitely better than ever. Whereas there were perimeter specialists years ago, now nearly every player can shoot the three. What I don't get is how rare players post up. I watched some of a game the other night and one team would miss an outside shot & the other team would race down and then someone would penetrate and kick it out. Then that player missed & the opponent would race up the court and do the same thing. This went on for a few possessions & I thought "why won't someone set up down low to give a different look". The pace was frenetic but shots weren't falling. It's just not entertaining to me. There are plenty of talented players but few use post moves. Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Post moves for big men are becoming obsolete because of double teams. I see it every time Demarcus Cousins posts up and he's stripped nearly every time. Guys that post up nowadays take way too long to get established for their shots and with everyone now being so fast, it becomes almost liability. Pau Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge, Cousins, Blake Griffin (especially him), Zach Randolph, all take too long to make their moves.

What's funny about that is that small forwards and guards are starting to post up alot more like Bradley Beal, Westbrook, LeBron, KD, Wade, Shabazz Mohammad, etc., and literally NO ONE double teams them when they are really good at it. Maybe it's because they're not as big and quicker to get their shot off.

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[aakaido]

Quote: Originally Posted by VDusen04

I suppose there's not really a right answer here because we're never going to find out. That said, Wilt Chamberlain's freakish all-around athleticism seems as though it'd transcend any era of basketball we've seen up to this point. On top of excelling at basketball, he was also a track star at Kansas and Big Eight high jump champion. This guy was huge, skilled, coordinated, and in great shape (he averaged over 45 minutes per game for his entire career, including one season where he averaged over 48 minutes). Here's another way I look at it: Andre Drummond is currently averaging 15 points and 17 rebounds per game. As someone who's watched Andre Drummond since his rookie year, I can confirm that he has just about zero offensive game. He's averaging 15 points right now off of rolling to the hoop, offensive rebounds, and an average of three made free throws. He has one post move and it's both predictable and completely unreliable (jump hook). And yet, here he is averaging 15 points per game, all while being one of the worst conditioned players in the league. Knowing that, I can't imagine someone like Wilt Chamberlain—who actually did know how to play basketball on the offensive end—not dropping at least 20 a night and likely a lot more. As for who was around to challenge Chamberlain at the time, it seems like we pretty readily forget about guys like Walt Bellamy (6'11'' 225), Nate Thurmond (6'11'' 235), Bob Lanier (6'11'' 265), Elvin Hayes (6'9'' 235) and numerous other bruisers that size and larger (beyond Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Willis Reed). Even today, Wilt would be a giant imposing figure who could and would assert his will upon the game. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was still almost scraping the top of the backboard off a drop step at 36 years old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

Yea I've seen this video and today's game would call almost all of those blocks a goaltend. It looks like he caught most of them on the way down. So his defense would've gone down just because of that rule.

But no, you're right that he'd definitely be still a 20 & 10 guy. But if teams are allowed to double team him like they do Cousins, we'll never know he'd adjust his game to be the monster he was back then.



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[CaseIH]

Quote: Originally Posted by VDusen04

I suppose there's not really a right answer here because we're never going to find out. That said, Wilt Chamberlain's freakish all-around athleticism seems as though it'd transcend any era of basketball we've seen up to this point. On top of excelling at basketball, he was also a track star at Kansas and Big Eight high jump champion. This guy was huge, skilled, coordinated, and in great shape (he averaged over 45 minutes per game for his entire career, including one season where he averaged over 48 minutes). Here's another way I look at it: Andre Drummond is currently averaging 15 points and 17 rebounds per game. As someone who's watched Andre Drummond since his rookie year, I can confirm that he has just about zero offensive game. He's averaging 15 points right now off of rolling to the hoop, offensive rebounds, and an average of three made free throws. He has one post move and it's both predictable and completely unreliable (jump hook). And yet, here he is averaging 15 points per game, all while being one of the worst conditioned players in the league. Knowing that, I can't imagine someone like Wilt Chamberlain—who actually did know how to play basketball on the offensive end—not dropping at least 20 a night and likely a lot more. As for who was around to challenge Chamberlain at the time, it seems like we pretty readily forget about guys like Walt Bellamy (6'11'' 225), Nate Thurmond (6'11'' 235), Bob Lanier (6'11'' 265), Elvin Hayes (6'9'' 235) and numerous other bruisers that size and larger (beyond Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Willis Reed). Even today, Wilt would be a giant imposing figure who could and would assert his will upon the game. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was still almost scraping the top of the backboard off a drop step at 36 years old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

Your exactly right, Wilt would be a dominant force no matter what era he played in. Sure there are some rules in place in todays game, that you wouldnt see him put up some of the crazy stats he put up back int he day, but he still would be a force no matter what era.

Is todays players better, as in more more skilled, as a whole yes, back in the older era's, teams didnt have as deep of bench's back then, but greatness is greatness, regardless of era they played in.

Obviously there is no way to prove this or disprove prove it either, but its ignorant to think that all players today are better than previous era's. I guess the best way to say it is today we have more quantity of quality players, than of those older era's. But to discount previous era's great players, makes zero sense.
Also todays players, have it so much easier these days, so they should be more skilled, because they dont need offseason jobs to make ends meet

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by VDusen04

As for who was around to challenge Chamberlain at the time, it seems like we pretty readily forget about guys like Walt Bellamy (6'11'' 225), Nate Thurmond (6'11'' 235), Bob Lanier (6'11'' 265), Elvin Hayes (6'9'' 235) and numerous other bruisers that size and larger (beyond Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Willis Reed). Even today, Wilt would be a giant imposing figure who could and would assert his will upon the game.

You can throw a lot of names out there but the reality is those guys didn't all play at the same time, most of those players showed up well after Wilt's prime. Like maybe 15% of Wilt's career came in the Jabbar era.

Starting Centers in 1962
Wilt Chamberlain: 7'1" 275 lbs (31.7 PER) - All-Star, MVP
Walt Bellamy: 6'11" 225 lbs (26.3 PER) - All-Star, Rookie of the Year
Bill Russell: 6'10" 215 lbs (19.5 PER) - All-Star
Clyde Lovelette: 6'9" 234 lbs (19.5 PER)
Wayne Embry: 6'8" 230 lbs (17.9 PER) - All-Star
Red Kerr: 6'9" 230 lbs (17.4 PER)
Bob Ferry: 6'8" 230 lbs (17.0 PER)
Jim Krebs: 6'8" 230 lbs (12.3 PER)
Phil Jordon: 6'10" 205 lbs (9.8 PER)

Wilt had a clear size/athletic/talent advantage and played in an era where that held a great deal of significance. This is measurable in his statistics where he averaged a paltry 2.4 APG to his whopping 50.4 PPG (39.5 FGA and 17.0 FTA) - a ratio which is basically unheard of and simply impossible in the modern NBA. While Wilt had a degree of selfishness to him, there was simply no strategic reason for him to pass the ball once he got it.

Rules changes merely two years later significantly impacted his game. Increasing the size of the lane by three feet meant he had to establish position further from the basket, which helped make double-teams more effective. Beyond his scoring rate dropping (35 PPG from 50 PPG, a 30% decrease) his FG% dropped a bit and he had to pass the ball more (leading to a marked increase in his assist rates).

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by CaseIH

Obviously there is no way to prove this or disprove prove it either, but its ignorant to think that all players today are better than previous era's.

I think it's more ignorant to deny human evolution.

Most people who use these arguments are stuck in nostalgia. When people argue that defenses were so much better in the 80s (the best OFFENSIVE era of basketball), it's emotion that is clouding their judgement. We are human, after all.