West-coast offense

[DJ]

Guys, I'm looking for some help in running this offense. As a Giants fan, it's a system I'm not used to seeing that much when watching NFL games. And, so far in my APF games I've either had run-heavy teams or run a spread offense and chucked the ball all over the field.

What formations work best? What routes should my WR run? How often does the RB factor into the passing game?

And, when it comes to picking players for my teams, what abilities at the QB/WR/RB/TE positions should I be looking at?

[Mason81Ballin!!!]

Re: West-coast offense

Ask Trojan about it he runs the WCO to a T

[MUSS]

Re: West-coast offense

West Coast offense is a system that attacks the defense more with shorter routes that stretch the field horizontally rather than vertically.

Passing in this offense is based on timing, knowing the route well enough to throw a nice easy catchable pass so the WR or TE or RB can get yards after the catch. So you want those positions to run good short routes, be able to run after the catch, and its nice to have good sized targets as well. Some examples:
Jerry Rice, Charley Taylor, Don maynard, Bobby Mitchel, John Taylor, Rob Moore, Dwight Clark, Ben Coates, ditka....
For RBs it really can vary. You can have a power run game mixed with WCO. In All Pro 2K8 almost all RB can catch well enough, but ones with soft hands can generally also line up at wide out.

[thejackal25]

Re: West-coast offense

The original WCO utilized a short passing game largely in place of a running game. The philosophy was to nickle and dime the defense with horizontal routes. The offense primarily had the QB taking 3 step drops and making quick reads. Though the quarterback did not need a particularly strong arm, he did need excellent accuracy to fit the ball in tight spaces over the middle. Quarterbacks also needed to be able to throw on the run and move around in the pocket, often keeping plays alive far longer than defenses could remain disciplined. Receivers had to be sure handed, able to catch the ball in traffic over the middle. Speed wasn't as desirable as the ability to make good cuts and run flawless routes since separation from the defender is supposed to occur shortly after the snap, and stretching the field vertically was not a priority. Receivers also needed to excel at getting YAC. Players like Jerry Rice excelled in the WCO by turning the 5 yard slant into a homerun play. Tight ends were also excellent receivers that ran solid routes. Runningbacks were expected to be more versatile than the average runningback at the time. Backs were heavily utilized in the passing game, asked to protect the QB, and had to carry the ball once defense's honed in on the pass.

Today, the true WCO is nonexistent. Its derivatives however are running strong. Teams like Seattle, Greenbay, and Philadelphia all operate offenses that are "WCO" oriented. However, today's teams have implemented more vertical passing, more frequent deep drop backs, and often a stronger running game. In Seattle a few years ago, the emphasis was on running the ball heavily with Alexander. In Philadelphia, the Eagles push the ball deep with the likes of Desean Jackson but also split Brian Westbrook out wide and take advantage of his receiving abilities.

The WCO can have many forms, but the absolute necessities imo are an accurate QB, WRs that run excellent routes, and good receivers at the RB and TE spot. Staple routes of the WCO both then and now include the slant, in, out, and anything crossing over the middle. A staple running play is the Trap. Staple formations include basically anything that keeps your base pro set personnel in.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: West-coast offense

The original WCO utilized a short passing game largely in place of a running game. The philosophy was to nickle and dime the defense with horizontal routes. The offense primarily had the QB taking 3 step drops and making quick reads. Though the quarterback did not need a particularly strong arm, he did need excellent accuracy to fit the ball in tight spaces over the middle. Quarterbacks also needed to be able to throw on the run and move around in the pocket, often keeping plays alive far longer than defenses could remain disciplined. Receivers had to be sure handed, able to catch the ball in traffic over the middle. Speed wasn't as desirable as the ability to make good cuts and run flawless routes since separation from the defender is supposed to occur shortly after the snap, and stretching the field vertically was not a priority. Receivers also needed to excel at getting YAC. Players like Jerry Rice excelled in the WCO by turning the 5 yard slant into a homerun play. Tight ends were also excellent receivers that ran solid routes. Runningbacks were expected to be more versatile than the average runningback at the time. Backs were heavily utilized in the passing game, asked to protect the QB, and had to carry the ball once defense's honed in on the pass.

Today, the true WCO is nonexistent. Its derivatives however are running strong. Teams like Seattle, Greenbay, and Philadelphia all operate offenses that are "WCO" oriented. However, today's teams have implemented more vertical passing, more frequent deep drop backs, and often a stronger running game. In Seattle a few years ago, the emphasis was on running the ball heavily with Alexander. In Philadelphia, the Eagles push the ball deep with the likes of Desean Jackson but also split Brian Westbrook out wide and take advantage of his receiving abilities.

The WCO can have many forms, but the absolute necessities imo are an accurate QB, WRs that run excellent routes, and good receivers at the RB and TE spot. Staple routes of the WCO both then and now include the slant, in, out, and anything crossing over the middle. A staple running play is the Trap. Staple formations include basically anything that keeps your base pro set personnel in.

Wow! Good write up! I run more west coast oriented plays than I thought!

[DJ]

Re: West-coast offense

Thanks for the tips, Jackal. I've got a WCO team going now that I'm getting good results with; well, aside from me losing both games

[RogueHominid]

Re: West-coast offense

Wow! Good write up! I run more west coast oriented plays than I thought!

Yeah, chances are if you've watched a lot of football post-Walsh you've been subliminally ingesting versions of the WCO. The Walsh-Seifert coaching tree includes Sam Wyche, Denny Green, Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan, Jon Gruden, Andy Reid, Steve Mariucci, and Tony Dungy.

[thejackal25]

Re: West-coast offense

Thanks for the tips, Jackal. I've got a WCO team going now that I'm getting good results with; well, aside from me losing both games

I think the WCO is difficult to execute. Since the emphasis is on the passing game, you can often find yourself going 3 and out when things just aren't clicking. And even when things do click, it can take forever to dink and dunk your way down the field if you're not getting good YAC and the D isn't creeping up to open up deeper shots down field. I believe the Tampa 2 D was largely created to shut down the WCO, and I am afraid to say that a lot of people are rolling with Tampa 2 style Ds.

Who do you have on your current WCO team, what does your D look like, and how are you losing games? Shoot outs? Low scoring bouts?

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: West-coast offense

Great post, Jackal.

[DJ]

Re: West-coast offense

I think the WCO is difficult to execute. Since the emphasis is on the passing game, you can often find yourself going 3 and out when things just aren't clicking. And even when things do click, it can take forever to dink and dunk your way down the field if you're not getting good YAC and the D isn't creeping up to open up deeper shots down field. I believe the Tampa 2 D was largely created to shut down the WCO, and I am afraid to say that a lot of people are rolling with Tampa 2 style Ds.

Who do you have on your current WCO team, what does your D look like, and how are you losing games? Shoot outs? Low scoring bouts?

Well, the first game I lost to Trojan, who ran a squad similar to mine. I had the lead the entire game but Trojan rallied for 10 points in the final minute; he scored a TD then recovered the onsides kick and made the FG to send it to OT. I couldn't score on my possession and Trojan did to win it. Second game I again faced a team similar to mine and lost largely due to Sayers running back the opening kickoff of the 2nd half.

Offensively in both games I've moved the ball very well. I think playing in the spread offense that I have in Season 2 has helped me read the field better as I transition to the WCO.

I've got Montana, Watters, Jones, Dw. Clark, J. Taylor and Wisniewski on offense and defense has Singletary, Van Pelt, Robinson, Butler and J. Marshall.

[RogueHominid]

Re: West-coast offense

You played a really nice game, DJ, and I like your personnel.

If I could recommend just one change, it would be to drop Wisnewski for either Macintyre or Cross. The reason is that in the WCO you want good pass blockers at G so that you have pocket integrity on those 1 and 3-step drops. Wisnewski is good as a run blocker, but he gives up the inside shoulder too often. Macintyre will give you excellent protection, as will Cross, and Macintyre is a decent run blocker as well. He was known for being one of the elite pulling guards, and he's good at it in the game. Just my .02.

[DJ]

Re: West-coast offense

You played a really nice game, DJ, and I like your personnel.

If I could recommend just one change, it would be to drop Wisnewski for either Macintyre or Cross. The reason is that in the WCO you want good pass blockers at G so that you have pocket integrity on those 1 and 3-step drops. Wisnewski is good as a run blocker, but he gives up the inside shoulder too often. Macintyre will give you excellent protection, as will Cross, and Macintyre is a decent run blocker as well. He was known for being one of the elite pulling guards, and he's good at it in the game. Just my .02.

I'll give that a shot.

I tried Lambert for the 2nd game at MLB but think I'll go back to Singletary.

[thejackal25]

Re: West-coast offense

Well, the first game I lost to Trojan, who ran a squad similar to mine. I had the lead the entire game but Trojan rallied for 10 points in the final minute; he scored a TD then recovered the onsides kick and made the FG to send it to OT. I couldn't score on my possession and Trojan did to win it. Second game I again faced a team similar to mine and lost largely due to Sayers running back the opening kickoff of the 2nd half.

Offensively in both games I've moved the ball very well. I think playing in the spread offense that I have in Season 2 has helped me read the field better as I transition to the WCO.

I've got Montana, Watters, Jones, Dw. Clark, J. Taylor and Wisniewski on offense and defense has Singletary, Van Pelt, Robinson, Butler and J. Marshall.

I agree with Trojan on the oline suggestion. Though I do believe you might be able to even get by with an all generic oline set to pass block. With the quick passing game of the WCO, most defenses shouldn't be able to get to you, unless they're crashing the interior line pretty hard, in which case a few designed roll outs and utilizing Montana's ability to throw outside of the pocket can keep the dline honest.

How is your production with Watters and Jones? I only ask b/c I've never been able to get the production out of them that warrants the silver picks, and to be honest I am regretting picking Watters in season 2. In my experiences I've been just as successful with guys like Bienemy (sp) at HB and Metz at TE. If I were going to have a silver TE as a primary threat I'd have to go with Coates simply b/c he has the ability to take an pass to the house with his break away speed and ability to shake tacklers. If you're getting very good production out of Watters and Jones then by all means stick with them, but if they're only making a handful of plays for you per game, then I'd consider picking guys that offer more value. In general I feel the WCO can be ran rather inexpensively, especially when Montana is at the helm, allowing for a more imposing defense to be put in place.

[DJ]

Re: West-coast offense

I agree with Trojan on the oline suggestion. Though I do believe you might be able to even get by with an all generic oline set to pass block. With the quick passing game of the WCO, most defenses shouldn't be able to get to you, unless they're crashing the interior line pretty hard, in which case a few designed roll outs and utilizing Montana's ability to throw outside of the pocket can keep the dline honest.

How is your production with Watters and Jones? I only ask b/c I've never been able to get the production out of them that warrants the silver picks, and to be honest I am regretting picking Watters in season 2. In my experiences I've been just as successful with guys like Bienemy (sp) at HB and Metz at TE. If I were going to have a silver TE as a primary threat I'd have to go with Coates simply b/c he has the ability to take an pass to the house with his break away speed and ability to shake tacklers. If you're getting very good production out of Watters and Jones then by all means stick with them, but if they're only making a handful of plays for you per game, then I'd consider picking guys that offer more value. In general I feel the WCO can be ran rather inexpensively, especially when Montana is at the helm, allowing for a more imposing defense to be put in place.

Thanks for the suggestions, Jackal. I'll keep that in mind and will try some different configurations.

We need to run a game together soon; I haven't played you since Season 1.

[s38s38s]

Re: West-coast offense

Fellas I definitely feel you on the O-Linaman love, but since Day 2 of playing online I've rolled with Genereics on all my teams. O-Line can definitely clear wholes I've done test, but I like I'll get more production via a legend pic in another skill position.