Striking changes I'd like considered for UFC 4

[RTSImperator]

Head Movement:

The first change I'm going to cover is head movement, using the image below as an example.



Anderson Silva avoids a Straight > Lead Spinning Backfist by performing a weave, a HALF MOON SHAPED motion of moving his head.
How I think head movement could be implemented to emulate movement like this is for it to be tied to the motion of the right stick, moving
THE MOMENT the stick is beyond it's 'neutral' position.
Allowing for a full 360 degree of motion creates a more true to life experience.





Currently in UFC 3, you have 4 directions Left, Right, Back, Down. While stationary you can hold position
(BTW maintaining a ducking position shouldn't constantly drain stamina) but usually you will be pre-emptively flicking one of the directions based on your abiltity to read your opponents patterns.

The issue I have with this is particularly when playing online under a moderate or heavy delay, where you may have to commit before you can
actually read the animation, you are getting caught in a guessing game if your opponent doesn't have a pattern.
And particularly in heavy lag you can become afraid to commit to moving your head due to making a wrong move.

Introducing a more fluid and responsive system which also provides more freedom of motion for the player would benefit by reducing the burden of having to make a correct read before you can commit. Being able to move your head once you see that uppercut/hook/straight etc, as opposed to predicting your opponent is going to throw a 1,2 - 1,6,3 - 1,1,3 or 1,3,2 etc.

More Free Flow on Punching/combos:

The next thing I'd like to address is the limitations of the current combo system (though I'm more concerned with the ability to string punches together); which is also contributing to a more robotic experience with the game.
With certain fighters, your options to be creative with your strikes and combinations are severely limited. Using Yoel Romero as an example; who has only LVL 1 combos in his arsenal, you can't even throw a 5,2,3 or a
2,3,b2 combination, or even the 'old meta' 1,6,3.

As a result you can fall into repetitive/predictable patterns; allowing a reasonable level of free flow can help to make the striking more dynamic.
What the combo system could do instead is, making fighters less proficient in certain areas to lack finesse and precision. Someone who is less proficient in boxing is bound to be more 'wild' and 'sloppy' with their punches as opposed to an elite boxer.

The stamina and damage system alone should suffice in preventing the game from becoming a combo spamming fest, as whiffs drain a hell of alot of stamina against an aggressive/reckless striker and countering while they're vulnerable can result in that KO blow.



In this image we have Chuck Liddell throwing a barrage of punches as he has his opponent (Tito Ortiz) hurt and is looking to get him out of there.
It is literally a nonstop barrage of punches and seamlessly flows into the 'finish the fight' position, which the game fails to accurately replicate.



The combo Donald Cerrone finished Rick Story with, Jab, Body Straight, Jab/Left hook?, Rear High Kick. Which btw, he cannot throw in UFC 3.

Reduced Input delay:

This issue has been posted in the past, for example you can find a thread by TheUFCVeteran here:
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...-fighters.html



In his video, you can also see just how long the delay is between inputting a jab and then seeing it take motion on screen. This can make tall fighters particularly awkward to use, especially at heavier weights
where everything is slowed down. But it's not just making taller fighters more awkward, it's often making them less feasible overall (This is especially true in ULTIMATE TEAM, where shorter, lower weight fighters are the meta).
For example, avoiding a haymaker from a short fighter (e.g, if your fighter is 6'6 and you're fighting someone who is 5'11) can be made to be more difficult then it needs to be; if it's not entirely impossible to duck, timing the pull counter or side sway can be iffy.

Vulnerability Issues:



As shown in the clip above; BLUE Costa lands a Haymaker on RED Costa, from the Neutral position it damages roughly 40% of his chin health. But only results in a rock while he is leaning to the side, bearing in mind he is stationary while in that position.

Vulnerability seems to behave as though you're moving towards the point of impact simply based on whether it deems your current position vulnerable.

Perhaps a better approach would be to increase the BASE damage of strikes to allow for more damage and stun/KO potential while in a neutral position but toning down the damage of vulnerability to counteract that while also being more influenced by momentum.

Stat Categories:

This is pretty straight forward, bringing back separate Power categories for Left Leg/Right Leg and Left Arm/Right Arm etc would be a step towards a more authentic experience.

Directional Block Break v Arm Damage:

The final thing I'd like to address in this post is the block breaking aspect of the game. In this scenario; let's say I have my opponent my opponent rocked, I throw a 2,1,2 (to bring their guard to the front) and then throw a rear high kick. Depending on their stamina and overall health at the given time this can result in a GUARANTEED KO.

My opponent has no choice but to duck the high kick (well they could always slip the straights but then there's that risk of moving into a round strike), but I then could instead anticipate the duck and throw a lead uppercut instead. Again if they duck into the lead uppercut that could also be a GAURANTEED KO. This is just one example of a 50/50 scenario with the blocking system.

It can be pretty easy to break an opponents block by just simply throwing enough forward strikes to bring their guard to the front before committing on your round strikes.

Maybe bringing back the Arm damage system or combining elements of both systems could reduce scenarios like this.

This can be made worse in ULTIMATE TEAM where you could have all your strikes lvl 4/5 with 100 SSTA and END, while Ranked delivers a more authentic MMA experiece. How the game mechanics function within UT should also be taken into account.

[TheJamesKraus]

I like the idea but why did you use a boxing GIF as an example for head movement? and specifically Mike Tyson... if that happened in MMA he would get kneed in the head.

[RTSImperator]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheJamesKraus

I like the idea but why did you use a boxing GIF as an example for head movement? and specifically Mike Tyson... if that happened in MMA he would get kneed in the head.

You're right, the Anderson Silva one I had to add as a link because I couldn't get the embed to work for some reason. It's just to show the kind of fluidity I'd like to see in the head movement though getting that low would be a risky move in MMA for sure.

[SxxthPxw]

I agree and think this thread needs more attention!

[1212headkick]

Neutral stance shuffle step footwork buffe td feints into strikes

[Lakers 24 7]

Quote: Originally Posted by RTSImperator

Head Movement: (BTW maintaining a ducking position shouldn't constantly drain stamina)

Why not? It's a more tiring position than standing straight/neutral.

Quote:

but usually you will be pre-emptively flicking one of the directions based on your abiltity to read your opponents patterns. The issue I have with this is particularly when playing online under a moderate or heavy delay, where you may have to commit before you can actually read the animation, you are getting caught in a guessing game if your opponent doesn't have a pattern.

The solution there is for them to fix online play, instead of applying something to mask the core issue.

Also, let's keep in mind, there are very few MMA fighters who actually bob and weave to the level you're depicting. Having everyone do this would be a bit unrealistic imo.

Quote:

The next thing I'd like to address is the limitations of the current combo system (though I'm more concerned with the ability to string punches together); which is also contributing to a more robotic experience with the game.

Combos are limited, in large part, to match what fighters actually do in real life.

Quote:

With certain fighters, your options to be creative with your strikes and combinations are severely limited. Using Yoel Romero as an example; who has only LVL 1 combos in his arsenal, you can't even throw a 5,2,3 or a 2,3,b2 combination, or even the 'old meta' 1,6,3.

But can you point me to one fight where Yoel has thrown a 5 2 3? If he's not doing it in real life, I struggle to see why he should do it in the game.

Quote:

As a result you can fall into repetitive/predictable patterns; allowing a reasonable level of free flow can help to make the striking more dynamic. What the combo system could do instead is, making fighters less proficient in certain areas to lack finesse and precision. Someone who is less proficient in boxing is bound to be more 'wild' and 'sloppy' with their punches as opposed to an elite boxer.

The problem with that is a lot of fighters have predictable and repetitive patterns in real life. So we need to decide whether or not we want the game to simulate their real life counter parts, or ignore realism to be more open. Personally, I'm always going to lean on the side of realism.

In the case of Yoel again, he's typically not a wild and sloppy striker, relatively anyway. He just doesn't have the combination repertoire that some other guys have. So I believe introducing strikes he doesn't perform, in a manner in which he doesn't strike would be adding something unrealistic in an attempt to balance him performing combinations that are unrealistic for him. You're adding 2 things that are unrealistic to make an unrealistic addition, more realistic. Just leave the unrealistic combination (for him) out to begin with. The fights would look and feel more authentic this way.

But, again I'm operating on the basis of realism being more important than player creativity. Preference will dictate how things "should" be.

Quote:

The stamina and damage system alone should suffice in preventing the game from becoming a combo spamming fest, as whiffs drain a hell of alot of stamina against an aggressive/reckless striker and countering while they're vulnerable can result in that KO blow.

I have to disagree again. For starters, stamina is already set too high. Stamina isn't drained enough on whiffs, hits, anything. While damage is far over-done, not enough fights go to a decision. Too many end in KO/TKO, to the point it's very unrealistic. Secondly, being able to counter something doesn't mean that the game has become more realistic. In this case, you're countering things that shouldn't have been possible in the first place. Moving the game further away from what an actual fight would look like in real life.

Quote:

In this image we have Chuck Liddell throwing a barrage of punches as he has his opponent (Tito Ortiz) hurt and is looking to get him out of there. It is literally a nonstop barrage of punches and seamlessly flows into the 'finish the fight' position, which the game fails to accurately replicate.

In real life these type of finishes are a big risk, because if you don't put him out, you've basically emptied your gas tank for the rest of the round, possibly the rest of the fight. I personally would like to see these risk vs reward situations replicated in the game. Once an opponent goes into a stun state, you should be able to unload on him (boost of adrenaline) without stamina instantly depleting.

However, if you fail to put him out there should be a very severe hit to your stamina for at least the rest of the round. Whether or not it carries over into the next round should depend on the cardio level of the specific fighter.

[Jizamurai]

I believe what this game needs is more uniqueness to the fighters. Reflect stats, power left hand, power right hand, power left leg ,power right leg and so much more to make fighters feel different. We also don’t need 400 fighters ,just give me top prospects, few legends , and the top 15. Idc to play a journeymen.

[RTSImperator]

Quote: Originally Posted by Lakers 24 7

The solution there is for them to fix online play, instead of applying something to mask the core issue. Also, let's keep in mind, there are very few MMA fighters who actually bob and weave to the level you're depicting. Having everyone do this would be a bit unrealistic imo.

Lag/delay is always going to be part and parcel with online play, especially when it's based on a peer 2 peer connection (Which the devs have been adamant in the past is the best approach for these games). There's very little they can do about it, even with dedicated servers and regional matchmaking.

In UFC 3, we already have a head movement stat to separate the fighters ability to bob and weave. But in the next game, I'd like to see fighters with HMVT to be able to move more fluently and seamless as opposed to a fighter with low HMVT which would feel more slow and stiff.

And circular motion is more true to life than the robotic and pre-emptive 4 directional movement we have currently.

Quote:

Combos are limited, in large part, to match what fighters actually do in real life.

But there is a difference between what the fighter chooses to do and what they're physically capable of doing. For example, put a fighter on a heavy bag and they will throw a tremendous variety of combinations. But against a live opponent; they will want to conserve their stamina, maintain defence and make reads etc.

If we use the Romero example again, he is a patient fighter that will save his energy for short and explosive bursts. He may not throw alot of combinations; but if the player tries to be aggressive and throws alot of strikes they should pay the price for doing so.

Where as someone who is using him properly will reap the benefits for doing that.

I believe it is better to give the player OPTIONS; e.g if Player B wants to be come in swinging for the fences then they should have that option but the game needs to provide Player A with the means/tools to be able to deal with that.

Quote:

The problem with that is a lot of fighters have predictable and repetitive patterns in real life. So we need to decide whether or not we want the game to simulate their real life counter parts, or ignore realism to be more open. Personally, I'm always going to lean on the side of realism. In the case of Yoel again, he's typically not a wild and sloppy striker, relatively anyway. He just doesn't have the combination repertoire that some other guys have. So I believe introducing strikes he doesn't perform, in a manner in which he doesn't strike would be adding something unrealistic in an attempt to balance him performing combinations that are unrealistic for him. You're adding 2 things that are unrealistic to make an unrealistic addition, more realistic. Just leave the unrealistic combination (for him) out to begin with. The fights would look and feel more authentic this way. But, again I'm operating on the basis of realism being more important than player creativity. Preference will dictate how things "should" be.

Alot of it for me is about fighter viablity, we have a large roster of fighters to choose from but very little ever get picked in online ranked (in my experience). Let's look at Welterweight; you have 'Meta' fighters like Nick Diaz, GSP and to a lesser extent Masvidal and Thompson.

The same could be applied to all weight classes, where you will only ever see a select few for the most part and end up playing against the SAME fighters OVER AND OVER again. Personally I find this to be dull and repetitive.

I also feel like the limitations of the current combo system is one of the culprits for this; for example, very rarely have I come across a Yoel Romero in ranked despite how strong he is in terms of attributes and I personally find his lack of striking arsenal to be unappealing (I prefer to use Strikers with high boxing ability, such as Cody Garbrandt, Robbie Lawler, Dustin Poirier etc).

Quote:

I have to disagree again. For starters, stamina is already set too high. Stamina isn't drained enough on whiffs, hits, anything. While damage is far over-done, not enough fights go to a decision. Too many end in KO/TKO, to the point it's very unrealistic. Secondly, being able to counter something doesn't mean that the game has become more realistic. In this case, you're countering things that shouldn't have been possible in the first place. Moving the game further away from what an actual fight would look like in real life.

Yes, in UFC 3, I'd agree that it is set to high. You can maintain a very high volume of strikes especially as long as you're landing on your opponents block. Which is also one of my gripes with the blocking system vs damage done etc.

Guess it also depends on what's being countered; if I pull counter an uppercut by landing a Straight > Left Hook I'm typically not getting a KO unless my opponent has sustained alot of damage to their head and/or is tired. I also do find it quite absurd how often you can get KOd by a single uppercut while throwing a body punch.

Also footwork is an issue with defensive play too, people can very easily stick to you like glue if they wish and you will need to use Teep kicks and pushes etc to keep them off.

Alot of the KOs in this game are a result of the block breaking mechanics vs vulnerability also, like the example I mentioned in that section of my post.

Quote:

In real life these type of finishes are a big risk, because if you don't put him out, you've basically emptied your gas tank for the rest of the round, possibly the rest of the fight. I personally would like to see these risk vs reward situations replicated in the game. Once an opponent goes into a stun state, you should be able to unload on him (boost of adrenaline) without stamina instantly depleting. However, if you fail to put him out there should be a very severe hit to your stamina for at least the rest of the round. Whether or not it carries over into the next round should depend on the cardio level of the specific fighter.

I agree with this and would like to see this implemented.