Denials are the reason grappling sucks on EA’s games

[Good Grappler]

Bare with me a second here and I’ll explain why.

I know that there are plenty of issues with the grappling, such as the bland wrestling system and repetitive ground game, for starters. But in my opinion, all these issues are tied to the denial system (and grapple advantage, but denials and GA are tied together, as I’ll explain).

Let me start by explaining the problem with the grappling, in clear terms, for anyone who doesn’t know.

The grappling is extremely stagnant when both players know what they’re doing. On the ground or in the clinch, transitions are remarkably easy to deny. When your transition gets denied, your opponent gains grapple advantage, which can be terrible. As a result, you see players stagnating in positions, faking transitions and throwing rabbit punches, not wanting to give their opponent GA. It’s an extremely repetitive, dull waiting game... but it’s necessary, because the only way to be offensive or active on the ground is by first gaining GA. You don’t want to be the first to transition, only to get denied and lose GA.

It’s the lamest grappling meta of all time, as it encourages stagnation, and punishes activity/action. It’s no wonder nobody grapples in competitive matches. Look at the ESFL, you’d think this is a kickboxing game. It’s not just the fact that takedowns and clinch entries are extremely easy to deny on reaction. It’s also the fact that the grappling is just so lame, people would rather stand.

Add in the rapid fast referee standup timer, and it just doesn’t work at all.

We need to completely overhaul how denials work. Because denials right now are too easy, AND too punishing. They completely and utterly shut down any hope of being active, all it does is encourage stagnation. If I get my transition denied, I should NOT have to resort to utter inactivity for 10 seconds. That KILLS any hope of having an active grappling game.

A denial system in an MMA game should serve one purpose: prevent a specific transition. THAT’S IT. If I know my opponent is attempting a specific transition, I can deny that by pressing the appropriate input. THATS IT. A denial should NOT do anything else. Denials don’t need to have some added “bonus”, where I’m awarded a temporary transition speed boost or stamina advantage. Not only is it (mostly) unrealistic, but it makes for a horrible meta - and that’s the most important thing.

I get the idea behind GA, and rewarding successful denials. Really, I do. But we’ve seen now that it just doesn’t work. It destroys any hope of an active grappling system.

Now, reversals, or counter transitions... those can all have some awards attached to them (such as gaining a dominant position or standing up). But those should be SEPARATE inputs... there’s no way inputting a denial should reward you with a reversal. A denial should stop a specific transition, and that’s it.

[johnmangala]

True it would be better if the recovery frames on denials were lowered, that way we’d have more active grappling.

The denials then would feel more like blocking strikes without the freezing.

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

True it would be better if the recovery frames on denials were lowered, that way we’d have more active grappling. The denials then would feel more like blocking strikes without the freezing.

For sure. Denials are just log-jamming the activity right now.

Getting denied shouldn’t put you in a position where you need to be fully defensive for several seconds. And it shouldn’t give your opponent a temporary speed boost. This makes denials way too significant to the grappling.

People are just looking for denials instead of actually grappling. Denials dominate the grappling.

The issue is that they’re way too powerful. A single transition denial can literally be the pivotal moment of a fight (and often is)... it shouldn’t be that way.

If transition denials weren’t so powerful and significantly intertwined with the meta, the grappling would be far more active and approachable. You wouldn’t see players sitting around relying on denials as a first line of defense. They’d have to actually be active, and grapple.

Denials have created a grappling system where the emphasis is on REACTING. Watch the TV carefully, then flick the stick as soon as your opponent moves. The better your reaction time, the better you can keep them in place, and gain GA. Atrocious.

Imagine a grappling system where the emphasis is on activity; movement; flowing. A grappling system where you can immerse yourself in the positions, and impose your will. A grappling system where holding your opponent in place is achieved by pushing or holding, as opposed to frantically flicking an analog stick.

[NEWSS]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

For sure. Denials are just log-jamming the activity right now. Getting denied shouldn’t put you in a position where you need to be fully defensive for several seconds. And it shouldn’t give your opponent a temporary speed boost. This makes denials way too significant to the grappling. People are just looking for denials instead of actually grappling. Denials dominate the grappling. The issue is that they’re way too powerful. A single transition denial can literally be the pivotal moment of a fight (and often is)... it shouldn’t be that way. If transition denials weren’t so powerful and significantly intertwined with the meta, the grappling would be far more active and approachable. You wouldn’t see players sitting around relying on denials as a first line of defense. They’d have to actually be active, and grapple. Denials have created a grappling system where the emphasis is on REACTING. Watch the TV carefully, then flick the stick as soon as your opponent moves. The better your reaction time, the better you can keep them in place, and gain GA. Atrocious. Imagine a grappling system where the emphasis is on activity; movement; flowing. A grappling system where you can immerse yourself in the positions, and impose your will. A grappling system where holding your opponent in place is achieved by pushing or holding, as opposed to frantically flicking an analog stick.

Just to clarify, you say denials are too easy (not for most imo) to achieve but at the same time you wish you'd be able to hold a position by holding the stick (like in UD3), wouldn't that make denying transitions even easier?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your general point of the grappling being not very dynamic, I'm really curious to see what they'll come up with, if they change anything at all

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Operation Sports mobile app

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

For sure. Denials are just log-jamming the activity right now. Getting denied shouldn’t put you in a position where you need to be fully defensive for several seconds. And it shouldn’t give your opponent a temporary speed boost. This makes denials way too significant to the grappling. People are just looking for denials instead of actually grappling. Denials dominate the grappling. The issue is that they’re way too powerful. A single transition denial can literally be the pivotal moment of a fight (and often is)... it shouldn’t be that way. If transition denials weren’t so powerful and significantly intertwined with the meta, the grappling would be far more active and approachable. You wouldn’t see players sitting around relying on denials as a first line of defense. They’d have to actually be active, and grapple. Denials have created a grappling system where the emphasis is on REACTING. Watch the TV carefully, then flick the stick as soon as your opponent moves. The better your reaction time, the better you can keep them in place, and gain GA. Atrocious. Imagine a grappling system where the emphasis is on activity; movement; flowing. A grappling system where you can immerse yourself in the positions, and impose your will. A grappling system where holding your opponent in place is achieved by pushing or holding, as opposed to frantically flicking an analog stick.

I agree denials really make for a stop and start feel. Pushing or holding for transitions would be better since there would be no freeze. Even if they dont change the denial mechanic as long as they reduce the recovery frames we get a more active grappling game.

Quote: Originally Posted by NEWSS

Just to clarify, you say denials are too easy (not for most imo) to achieve but at the same time you wish you'd be able to hold a position by holding the stick (like in UD3), wouldn't that make denying transitions even easier? Don't get me wrong, I agree with your general point of the grappling being not very dynamic, I'm really curious to see what they'll come up with, if they change anything at all Sent from my SM-A505FN using Operation Sports mobile app

Imo the problem isnt that denials are easy to get (they are tho) its the freeze from denials that suck. Denials like UD3 would be better since it would feel like blocking strikes where there's no freeze. This way you could fluidly chain transition attempts.

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by NEWSS

Just to clarify, you say denials are too easy (not for most imo) to achieve but at the same time you wish you'd be able to hold a position by holding the stick (like in UD3), wouldn't that make denying transitions even easier? Don't get me wrong, I agree with your general point of the grappling being not very dynamic, I'm really curious to see what they'll come up with, if they change anything at all Sent from my SM-A505FN using Operation Sports mobile app

Yeah the denials are too easy for what they achieve. If they just stopped transitions, it would be fine. But a denial right now is a stamina drainer, GA meter filler, and auto reversal crammed into one.

And UD 3 didn’t really have an “easy” denial system. It was very balanced aside from punch flick exploit, which was going to be patched (and if it was, the grappling would have been nearly perfect).

Yes, holding was “easy” in that you could deny any transition while holding the stick. But functionally, it was very different - and far less OP - than denials in EA UFC 3.

First off, “holding” would only deny three transitions before the fourth would break through - less than that if your stamina was low. So “holding” was only a very temporary solution. You couldn’t just stay in a position and deny every transition indefinitely, like you can on EA UFC 3. You had to be active.

Second, “holding” provided no stamina advantage or grapple advantage. It provided no benefit at all, aside from temporarily stopping a few transitions. Players weren’t penalized for having a transition denied while being “held”, nor were they awarded for holding.

Because of this, “holding” didn’t end up with some corny prevalence in the meta. It was only used in realistic scenarios where “clamping down” felt suitable.

Third, “holding” ONLY denied transitions - reversals were an entirely separate mechanic, performed by an entirely different controller input. On EA UFC 3, denials and reversals are one and the same. Denials automatically become reversals when timed quickly enough.

This is ridiculous, and strongly favors UD3’s grappling for a few reasons.

First off, and most obviously, there’s no way denials and reversals should be blended together, and executed via the same controller input. Denials are all about stifling activity and maintaining your position, whereas reversals are an extremely active attempt to change your position entirely. They’re extremely different things, with extremely different strategic implications - you could argue they’re polar opposites!

Whoever at EA decided players should be “rewarded” with a reversal, for a well-timed denial... seriously dropped the ball! That’s like automatically turning my punch into a flying knee, because I timed the punch perfectly. Seriously wtf!! What if I want to keep my opponent wrapped up in my guard, then work a submission? How am I supposed to do that, if denying their transition will automatically make me sweep them and take top position? Ridiculous.

Secondly, because they’re such different strategic things, having their own input simply doubles the depth of the meta. On UD3, “denying” was achieved by holding. This was its own strategy entirely, with its own “mini meta” surrounding it, regarding hold breaks, patience battles, etc. But then, you could also reverse your opponent by flicking the RS as they transition. This had its own mini meta as well, such as mixing up the timing on your transitions, or stalling mid-transition*.

*UD3 used a two stage “swoop” input to perform transitions, and as such, all transitions had two stages, which would be performed at the pace by which the player inputted it. So you could perform half the “swoop”, which would show your fighter beginning the transition, then delay for as long as you want before performing the second half of the swoop.

For example, a foot on hips “push off” escape from bottom guard would work like this: first half of swoop - feet go to hips, second half of swoop, push opponent away. And if you stalled half way between, your feet would stay on the hips until you finished the swoop. Or a pass to half guard would look like this: first half of swoop, elbows goes to inner thigh and begins trying to break the guard open, second half of swoop, pass over the leg into HG.

[1212headkick]

I agree while I do find alot of times denials to not be very responsive. I'll 100 percent deny the right way and they still get the transition. Makes no sense. Grappling on ps4 is completely broken as transitions and fakes hang when they shouldnt giving your opponent a free deny and the only safe way to fake is undeniable fakes. Another issue in this game is attacking with submissions isnt a thing. You get punished if it goes to the 3rd gate and you dont get the flick and completely lose position. I get position before submission. But even that is poorly translated. And the lack of so many positions in this game quickly makes it redundant. If theres not at least 5 new positions on the ground I'm not buying and noone else should either. Wheres knee on belly. Wheres cage seated. Wheres delariva. Wheres deep half. Wheres butterflyguard. Wheres high guard. Wheres backside crucifix. Where are the rocked states on the ground. It makes no sense.

[MacAttack33]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

Yeah the denials are too easy for what they achieve. If they just stopped transitions, it would be fine. But a denial right now is a stamina drainer, GA meter filler, and auto reversal crammed into one. And UD 3 didn’t really have an “easy” denial system. It was very balanced aside from punch flick exploit, which was going to be patched (and if it was, the grappling would have been nearly perfect). Yes, holding was “easy” in that you could deny any transition while holding the stick. But functionally, it was very different - and far less OP - than denials in EA UFC 3. First off, “holding” would only deny three transitions before the fourth would break through - less than that if your stamina was low. So “holding” was only a very temporary solution. You couldn’t just stay in a position and deny every transition indefinitely, like you can on EA UFC 3. You had to be active. Second, “holding” provided no stamina advantage or grapple advantage. It provided no benefit at all, aside from temporarily stopping a few transitions. Players weren’t penalized for having a transition denied while being “held”, nor were they awarded for holding. Because of this, “holding” didn’t end up with some corny prevalence in the meta. It was only used in realistic scenarios where “clamping down” felt suitable. Third, “holding” ONLY denied transitions - reversals were an entirely separate mechanic, performed by an entirely different controller input. On EA UFC 3, denials and reversals are one and the same. Denials automatically become reversals when timed quickly enough. This is ridiculous, and strongly favors UD3’s grappling for a few reasons. First off, and most obviously, there’s no way denials and reversals should be blended together, and executed via the same controller input. Denials are all about stifling activity and maintaining your position, whereas reversals are an extremely active attempt to change your position entirely. They’re extremely different things, with extremely different strategic implications - you could argue they’re polar opposites! Whoever at EA decided players should be “rewarded” with a reversal, for a well-timed denial... seriously dropped the ball! That’s like automatically turning my punch into a flying knee, because I timed the punch perfectly. Seriously wtf!! What if I want to keep my opponent wrapped up in my guard, then work a submission? How am I supposed to do that, if denying their transition will automatically make me sweep them and take top position? Ridiculous. Secondly, because they’re such different strategic things, having their own input simply doubles the depth of the meta. On UD3, “denying” was achieved by holding. This was its own strategy entirely, with its own “mini meta” surrounding it, regarding hold breaks, patience battles, etc. But then, you could also reverse your opponent by flicking the RS as they transition. This had its own mini meta as well, such as mixing up the timing on your transitions, or stalling mid-transition*. *UD3 used a two stage “swoop” input to perform transitions, and as such, all transitions had two stages, which would be performed at the pace by which the player inputted it. So you could perform half the “swoop”, which would show your fighter beginning the transition, then delay for as long as you want before performing the second half of the swoop. For example, a foot on hips “push off” escape from bottom guard would work like this: first half of swoop - feet go to hips, second half of swoop, push opponent away. And if you stalled half way between, your feet would stay on the hips until you finished the swoop. Or a pass to half guard would look like this: first half of swoop, elbows goes to inner thigh and begins trying to break the guard open, second half of swoop, pass over the leg into HG.

UD3 did it right for sure. It promoted much more active grappling, and most people loved it. I'm glad to see more people being vocal again about the UD3 holding denials. We have pointed out that UD3 grappling provided the following benefits:

1) separated reversals from denials
2) make denials FEEL like really holding someone down, very immersive.
3) full control of the timing of the transition, holding the transition midway to mix up the timing and prevent the reversal. This provides much more depth to the meta in my opinion.

I hope a dev will come down from their ivory tower to read and fully digest your last post here.