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Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

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Old 08-12-2014, 11:36 AM   #25
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

I don't like the perma-ban part of this either. I can already name a couple of guys that were given second chances and have been wonderful assets to the community since returning.

I personally prefer a suspension period for SOME infractions, with perma-banning only used in the most extreme cases.

For instance, I've only had one infraction. I was yellow carded for bumping my own thread a few years back (I had no idea that was against TOS though it DEFINITELY WAS. I never read that part).

The idea of being banned forever after something like that, which under this stricter policy, you guys reserve the right to do, seems extreme.

I'm not going to sit here and say a lot of the bans I've seen aren't deserved. They are. But some good people have that have been here for years have been given the death sentence where I personally believe with these specific people, they could have conversely 'served their time' and returned back and we would have all been better for it.

All I'm saying is I would like to see suspensions be an option. Not a right, but a possibility in some cases.

Under this new rule I feel like I would have been banned years ago for my one and only mistake.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:38 AM   #26
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehlis
There are plenty of checks and balances and all bans are reviewed after the fact.

We are held accountable for anything we do.

What I will stress to anything who reads this though is DO NOT make another username. Contact Mill immediately and he will review it.
How do you contact Millenium if your IP has been banned?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:59 AM   #27
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Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroesandvillains
How do you contact Millenium if your IP has been banned?

Banned users can still view the site and he is contacted via email.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:01 PM   #28
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehlis
Banned users can still view the site and he is contacted via email.
And twitter.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:49 PM   #29
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroesandvillains
I don't like the perma-ban part of this either. I can already name a couple of guys that were given second chances and have been wonderful assets to the community since returning.

I personally prefer a suspension period for SOME infractions, with perma-banning only used in the most extreme cases.

For instance, I've only had one infraction. I was yellow carded for bumping my own thread a few years back (I had no idea that was against TOS though it DEFINITELY WAS. I never read that part).

The idea of being banned forever after something like that, which under this stricter policy, you guys reserve the right to do, seems extreme.

I'm not going to sit here and say a lot of the bans I've seen aren't deserved. They are. But some good people have that have been here for years have been given the death sentence where I personally believe with these specific people, they could have conversely 'served their time' and returned back and we would have all been better for it.

All I'm saying is I would like to see suspensions be an option. Not a right, but a possibility in some cases.

Under this new rule I feel like I would have been banned years ago for my one and only mistake.
I would say that the number of people who were given second chances and were banned again is significantly higher than the ones who became valuable members of OS.

No one is going to ban people for small things like bumping threads or avoiding the language filter. Those things are what we will give warnings for. Now if you do it a second time and ignore the warning, a mod can ban you.

As I stated before, we tried suspensions for years and they didnt work. We tried several different ways to suspend people and none of them worked. Zero tolerance has been the only method that has produced results.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:41 PM   #30
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTimeTimmyJim
Permabans are a bad idea in a lot of cases. Sure it may be the only thing that works with some people, but I have seen plenty of questionable bans on this site in my time here. One mod can be in a bad mood and have a hair-trigger on a certain day and ban someone for no real good reason. If you are going to start permabanning left and right the permabans should at least have a couple mods look over the situation before they are finalized. I don't like that one of these questionable bans means a poster is gone forever.


I know my opinion doesn't count for anything, but I just thought I would leave it here.
Going through Army Basic Training taught me it's best at times to just fall back and blend in, not bringing attention to yourself for singling out but against my better judgement I won't follow that lesson ITT. I state that to say I'm weary of even discussing this topic because every Mod on OS is human, capable of errors in judgement and in spite of some seeming claims to the contrary, that can cause unfair outcomes and labeling of OS members/posters. However since the thread is open to discuss this topic and share opinions of it, hopefully without reprisal, I will.

I won't go into specifics but I was banned not too long ago for quite a few months over what I'll call a "misunderstanding" to be PC and obviously I was thankfully able to get reinstated but it happening in the first place was unfair. Now I understand this is a privately owned website to wit the ownership can do whatever they see fit but if the intention of said ownership is to be reasonably fair, I'm trying to point out that's not happening in all cases.

From personal experience, I think there should be some kind of more forum public and transparent review when someone is permabanned, not a public vote or anything that extreme for a privately owned business but maybe some kind of open sub-forum where the permabanned member can post in to publicly communicate with Mods and OS members for a period of time. At least then everything is out in the open and not in the back alleys of private emails and potential OS admin group think/gang mentality.

Again, this is just my two cents about what I think is fair, yet if the response to this is something akin to "a privately owned website can do whatever it wants", I completely understand that but then the gesture of allowing discussion ITT seems hollow, imo.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:05 PM   #31
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
Going through Army Basic Training taught me it's best at times to just fall back and blend in, not bringing attention to yourself for singling out but against my better judgement I won't follow that lesson ITT. I state that to say I'm weary of even discussing this topic because every Mod on OS is human, capable of errors in judgement and in spite of some seeming claims to the contrary, that can cause unfair outcomes and labeling of OS members/posters. However since the thread is open to discuss this topic and share opinions of it, hopefully without reprisal, I will.

I won't go into specifics but I was banned not too long ago for quite a few months over what I'll call a "misunderstanding" to be PC and obviously I was thankfully able to get reinstated but it happening in the first place was unfair. Now I understand this is a privately owned website to wit the ownership can do whatever they see fit but if the intention of said ownership is to be reasonably fair, I'm trying to point out that's not happening in all cases.

From personal experience, I think there should be some kind of more forum public and transparent review when someone is permabanned, not a public vote or anything that extreme for a privately owned business but maybe some kind of open sub-forum where the permabanned member can post in to publicly communicate with Mods and OS members for a period of time. At least then everything is out in the open and not in the back alleys of private emails and potential OS admin group think/gang mentality.

Again, this is just my two cents about what I think is fair, yet if the response to this is something akin to "a privately owned website can do whatever it wants", I completely understand that but then the gesture of allowing discussion ITT seems hollow, imo.

I know I sound like a broken record but.....we did this before. It was called the Cell. We would temp ban members who violated the TOS and either give them a time out for a few days/weeks or give them an opportunity to explain themselves before we permabanned them.

It didnt work. It was extra work for most of the mods. Most people who went to the Cell treated it like a joke. Also 99% of bans dont need an explanation and arent caused by miscommunications so there is no reason to give.

I'll give you some examples. Here is a list of the reasons people have been banned since this thread was posted:

- User directly insulted a Dev.
- User ignored mod request to keep the Madden Demo thread on topic by posting about the exclusive deal.
- User bashed EA without providing constructive support in same thread.
- User posted about pooping himself in a Madden thread.
- User insulted dev for changing his job.
- Multiple users who were previously banned users.

Thats it. Now look at that list. Do any of those reasons deserve debate? Do we need to discuss why people shouldnt insult developers or post about pooping himself (lol)?

Are mistakes going to be made? Yes, because some of the bans are based on judgment calls.

I'll give you another peak behind the scenes. Mil and I are the admins so any decision about a ban or reinstatement is made by either him or me. Now I hate giving reinstatements. I dont think I've given one in the three years I've been an admin. I've seen good posters that I like banned and not reinstated them because the reason they were banned was valid.

Mil, on the other hand, is nicer than me. He's reinstated a few people. Now there are VERY few people that he's reinstated because of a mod error or because the mod overstepped. Most of the time it was because he felt the user either apologized profusely and promised to never violate the TOS or because the user had spent enough time (sometimes months or years) on the sideline.

My point is if we thought mod error was a big cause of underserved people getting banned, we would make changes. We just arent seeing it.

Last edited by aholbert32; 08-12-2014 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:30 PM   #32
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Re: Operation Sports Zero Tolerance Policy Discussion

Aholbert, thanks for telling us a bit about how this works. And the fact that there's even an open forum on this topic is a perfect example of why this site is so great.

Question: You talked a bit about the banning process above. Could you clarify whether or not all bans are reviewed by a person other than the one that did the banning?

I think that could ease a lot of our minds on this new enforcement policy. Just knowing that a third party is always mandated to review user infraction enforcement would put a lot of the "a mod having a bad day" arguments to rest.
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