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Posts I'll Never Understand

11:15 AM - April 7, 2005 by Amidst The Blather

This is Part 1 in what will, I'm sure, be a long series. Collect 'em all! Trade 'am with your friends! Stick 'em in your bicycle spokes to get that cool motorcycle sound!

Consider this a rookie card, and treat it with the respect that entails...{br}{br}View the Entire Article{br}

Member Comments

# 21 Graphik @ 04/08/05 03:31 PM

Quote:


	Oversized gorillas don't REALLY throw barrels at Italian Plumbers. But, would you set the THROW BARRELS slider to 0???

Naw, I would set the Throw Barrels slider to +10 because in reality, Italian plumbers have stated on numerous occasions that they've often had to jump over multiple barrels and climb down countless manholes in order to tighten a leaky pipe. Then you would have to set the plumbers jump speed to offset the increased number of barrels that they will see....

# 22 Pared @ 04/08/05 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	Oversized gorillas don't REALLY throw barrels at Italian Plumbers. But, would you set the THROW BARRELS slider to 0???

LOL funny. Too bad it's not a sport.

# 23 Graphik @ 04/08/05 03:40 PM

Quote:


	It's subjective either way... Someone who creates sliders "fine tunes" them based on either his own vision of what is "realistic" or by "statistics". Neither one make a game realistic. It may make for a better experience, but games aren't built to be 100% realistic. A few more homeruns, errors, passed balls, and diving catches out of the box is entertainment.

But would'nt you want a better experience? Instead of being served the same default gameplay for as long as the game is in your possesion? Its only subjective when the point of creating the sliders is to make the gameplay more realistic than the default settings. But thats not the reason most ppl make slider sets. Pared made some good points about flaws that ship with the game. Some sliders sets are created to fix these flaws thus being considered "realistic" sliders. I dont think I can name a game that had everything perfect right out the box. And keep in mind, perfect does'nt exactly mean realistic. It means that each and every function works and in todays games, none come out perfect.

# 24 Shaver @ 04/08/05 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	LOL funny. Too bad it's not a sport.

Not only is barrel jumping a sport....

...but it has been in Video game form.

Game - Set - Match

SHAVER!!!!!

# 25 VanCitySportsGuy @ 04/08/05 04:17 PM

I feel like slider options are vital for most sport games.

As a consumer I want to have as many options as possible. Every player has different tastes and that's where sliders come in handy.

Let's say you buy a game and you really dislike one aspect of it. Without sliders you wouldn't be able to correct it. I want to have that option.

There's nothing in the manual that says if you play the game you must tinker with the sliders. If you don't like messing with sliders then don't do it but don't begrude other people that do it.

# 26 Pared @ 04/08/05 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	Not only is barrel jumping a sport.... ...but it has been in Video game form. Game - Set - Match SHAVER!!!!!

Barrel jumping... or:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	Oversized gorillas don't REALLY throw barrels at Italian Plumbers. But, would you set the THROW BARRELS slider to 0???

Barrel THROWING at Italian Plumbers...?

Fault - Deuce

# 27 Pared @ 04/08/05 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asianflow


	There's nothing in the manual that says if you play the game you must tinker with the sliders. If you don't like messing with sliders then don't do it but don't begrude other people that do it.

I don't think that's what Fossen is saying (at least I hope not).

He's making an argument that the obsession that sliders can actually fix certain things is something he doesn't understand, if I'm not mistaken.

It's not a clear argument, and it might be he just doesn't understand posts ABOUT how they (a person) can't play a game unless there is a good slider set out. I agree somewhat, but if it's against sliders in general...

# 28 Heelfan71 @ 04/08/05 05:10 PM

which reminds me, I am working on some Madden 2006 sliders right now. I know the game isn't out yet but I am doing them in my head.

# 29 Graphik @ 04/08/05 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heelfan71


	which reminds me, I am working on some Madden 2006 sliders right now. I know the game isn't out yet but I am doing them in my head.

LMAO. You must of got that EA e-mail too.

# 30 Shaver @ 04/08/05 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	Barrel jumping... or: Barrel THROWING at Italian Plumbers...? Fault - Deuce

Gorilla throwing Barrels at Plumber is the action that would be adjustable by slider (e.g. Throwing Accuracy, Contact Percentage, Long Range). The objective of the event, however, is barrel jumping....

Advantage: Server

# 31 inkcil @ 04/08/05 08:37 PM

Unfortuantely, even though the developers work hard, glaring gameplay glitches are becoming more and more evident as of late. Sliders can be used to fix a problem (as in MLB2k5) or make a game more enjoyable for an individual without impacting the difficulty (speed setting in NBA Live).

From another perspective, for technical junkies, tweaking sliders has become a game within a game. For them it is like taking the baton that the developers are passing off to them and running with it...and in any direction they want to go. Furthermore, if developers say in an interview, "We wanted to make as much of a realistic experience as possible" the slider person has every right, IMO, to come up with some post called "Slider Man's Realism Sliders."

There are technically minded people who just love tweaking the sliders for the enjoyment of others, either finding ways to enhance the experience (whether realism or arcade) as promised by the gaming company, or to serve a select group of gamers that want an alternate gaming experience.

To say that games aren't real is like saying that movies aren't real - its just not a solid argument for people wanting to see real life mimicked in a video game or on the big screen. We all know it's not real already. It's not like we expect the players to come out of the TV like in the recent Fat Albert movie.

As for watching CPU vs. CPU games, a very similar argument can be made against watching Human games on TV...you can also say that baseball was a game meant to be played (compared to watched). So we should all go out and grab a mit instead of watching the next Dodger-Giants matchup.

The main thing for me watching CPU vs. CPU has nothing to do with realism (not that the author necessarily said it did). It's all about being fully sucked into a fantasy world, much like watching a movie (Star Wars isn't real but I still love to sit back and watch it).

Watching CPU vs. CPU serves somewhat of an RPG-like purpose for me. I am in this fantasy baseball world, where my team is doing A, B, and C. But what they do is also impacted by what 2 other teams (that I am not controlling) are doing. For instance, if the CPU decides that Ichiro will be injured in a matchup with Texas that occurs 2 games before my 3-day stint in Seattle, I am impacted by that matchup.

Also, let's say that I am up by 1/2 game over Texas on the last day of the season. If they win their game against the Angels I will not make the playoffs. However, if they lose the game I go to the playoffs and win the division. As an RPG-like element (think of it as a large cut-scene), I would like to watch that game, compared to just pressing a button and finding out what the score of the Texas-Angels game is.

Ironically, I still understand people who don't watch CPU vs. CPU games or tweak sliders.

# 32 Pared @ 04/08/05 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inkcil


	Unfortuantely, even though the developers work hard, glaring gameplay glitches are becoming more and more evident as of late. Sliders can be used to fix a problem (as in MLB2k5) or make a game more enjoyable for an individual without impacting the difficulty (speed setting in NBA Live). From another perspective, for technical junkies, tweaking sliders has become a game within a game. For them it is like taking the baton that the developers are passing off to them and running with it...and in any direction they want to go. Furthermore, if developers say in an interview, "We wanted to make as much of a realistic experience as possible" the slider person has every right, IMO, to come up with some post called "Slider Man's Realism Sliders." There are technically minded people who just love tweaking the sliders for the enjoyment of others, either finding ways to enhance the experience (whether realism or arcade) as promised by the gaming company, or to serve a select group of gamers that want an alternate gaming experience. To say that games aren't real is like saying that movies aren't real - its just not a solid argument for people wanting to see real life mimicked in a video game or on the big screen. We all know it's not real already. It's not like we expect the players to come out of the TV like in the recent Fat Albert movie. As for watching CPU vs. CPU games, a very similar argument can be made against watching Human games on TV...you can also say that baseball was a game meant to be played (compared to watched). So we should all go out and grab a mit instead of watching the next Dodger-Giants matchup. The main thing for me watching CPU vs. CPU has nothing to do with realism (not that the author necessarily said it did). It's all about being fully sucked into a fantasy world, much like watching a movie (Star Wars isn't real but I still love to sit back and watch it). Watching CPU vs. CPU serves somewhat of an RPG-like purpose for me. I am in this fantasy baseball world, where my team is doing A, B, and C. But what they do is also impacted by what 2 other teams (that I am not controlling) are doing. For instance, if the CPU decides that Ichiro will be injured in a matchup with Texas that occurs 2 games before my 3-day stint in Seattle, I am impacted by that matchup. Also, let's say that I am up by 1/2 game over Texas on the last day of the season. If they win their game against the Angels I will not make the playoffs. However, if they lose the game I go to the playoffs and win the division. As an RPG-like element (think of it as a large cut-scene), I would like to watch that game, compared to just pressing a button and finding out what the score of the Texas-Angels game is. Ironically, I still understand people who don't watch CPU vs. CPU games or tweak sliders.

Fantastic post.

# 33 Pared @ 04/08/05 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	Gorilla throwing Barrels at Plumber is the action that would be adjustable by slider (e.g. Throwing Accuracy, Contact Percentage, Long Range). The objective of the event, however, is barrel jumping.... Advantage: Server

Actually, the objective is princess saving in your example. Barrel jumping is one of the participating activities, however. As is fire avoiding, and pit jumping.

Let - Deuce.

# 34 Shaver @ 04/09/05 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	Actually, the objective is princess saving in your example. Barrel jumping is one of the participating activities, however. As is fire avoiding, and pit jumping. Let - Deuce.

Actually, Donkey Kong, like a Decathalon, is actually separate sports combined into a single event or tournament. So, while fire avoiding, pit jumping, and yellow peg running over are all individual sports, so in Barrel Jumping.

Lob

# 35 Hammerhunker @ 04/09/05 09:29 AM

This is a thread I Don't Understand. Kind of reminds me of high school with the "Understood crowd bashing on the MisUnderstood crowd."

I was always under the impression that this site was designed as an outlet for people who choose video games as a hobby to come and discuss opinions, enhancements, improvements, solutions, unattainable information, etc. about their game. As posters will most often do, disagreements and judgements will be made, but it boils down to the now cliche': "To each their own" or something like that. I don't understand how a poobah can lead a charge basically stating that a group of posters that are interested in using sliders are ridiculous.

I fall into the group of the misunderstood, I guess. I play with the sliders because I want to tailor the game to my liking, plain and simple. I had realism with sports, it was called coaching, but parents came with that package and I would a lot rather deal with bugs and glitches, and be able to manipulate the game the way I want, than with parents. A lot of games I don't touch the sliders (football)much, but especially baseball I do tinker because it is necessary most often to get a playable game.

The author claims that slider use is not realistic. What do you think the NFL's Competition and Rules Committee does? When kicking began to be "too easy" teams relying on the field goal instead of risking the 4th down attempt, they implemented the kicking ball to make the kick more difficult. Also on a miss, the ball would return to the point of the kick. All of this to hopefully increase scoring. Sounds like a tweaking of a slider to me. How about the 2004 mandate to enforce the rule already in place on the chuck zone? No more contact beyond 5 yards, hence there were a ton more illegal contact penalties than ever before. This allowed receivers more freedom, increased offensive potential, huh sounds like a slider tweak. Didn't the NHL try to enforce obstruction and interference more in attempt to increase offense? Haven't teams in MLB work on height and distance of their outfield fences to either increase or decrease the homerun? Both sound like a slider tweak to me. Even the NBA legalized the zone defense and made a bevy of changes to improve their game. Now if sliders are unrealistic, but real the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA do essentially the same thing, what is realistic?

I probably set myself up here for some ripping, but I don't really care. Though I wasn't offended by the article, I was taken back. The slider, at this juncture of game ownership to me, is the main reason I visit this site. So, I don't understand why a topic like this should be raised. I hate to use this cliche, but oh well: To each their own, Mr. Fossen, to each their own.

# 36 Medway @ 04/09/05 08:15 PM

To the above poster, those arent slider tweaks they're rule changes, there's a difference. Closest thing to a slider tweak would be someone taking steroids to "up their stats".

If someone wants to watch games then let them be. I like to watch the demo games now and then just to see how the AI acts. I've never made it through a whole game but it is interesting to watch sometimes. Yes you can turn on the tv to watch a real game, but with a video game you have total control over the situation that you are seeing.

Sliders have their use as well. Some people here want to most realistic playing game possible and sliders can help fix problems with how a game plays as opposed to default. Again you have a choice either way. I do think that people can get carried away with them (I have spent way too much time messing with sliders instead of just playing) but I'm glad they are there. Better to have the option and ignore it than not have it and need it.

As far as the comment on WE8, that game doesn't need sliders because they actually got it right, thats why no one complains about the lack of sliders unlike many other games. WE8 is an anomaly in the sports game market it seems, until other developers spend as much time getting their gameplay right then at least we have sliders to make ourselves happy. When you play that game you are free to just worry about actual strategy as the game itself does not bug you with any glaring flaws. In a perfect world all games would be like that but they aren't.

Not sure if the donkey kong analogy works. That game wasn't meant to be a sim so realism doesn't apply. If I wanted a sports game to play out of the bounds of realism I'd get Blitz or whatever.

# 37 mgoblue @ 04/09/05 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medway


	As far as the comment on WE8, that game doesn't need sliders because they actually got it right, thats why no one complains about the lack of sliders unlike many other games. WE8 is an anomaly in the sports game market it seems, until other developers spend as much time getting their gameplay right then at least we have sliders to make ourselves happy. When you play that game you are free to just worry about actual strategy as the game itself does not bug you with any glaring flaws. In a perfect world all games would be like that but they aren't.

so aren't sliders the easy way out for a game developer? should we let them off the hook from delivering correct gameplay just because they drop some sliders in there?

# 38 Medway @ 04/09/05 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgoblue


	so aren't sliders the easy way out for a game developer? should we let them off the hook from delivering correct gameplay just because they drop some sliders in there?

Yes they are and no we shouldn't. Its a similar situation to PC games now. Companies know they can always add a patch so they don't have to test it as much. Sliders produce the same situation. It would be great if games didn't need the sliders ala WE8 but unless a company knows their gameplay is spot on then I'd rather them give us the option to fix it than none at all. I have a feeling that WE8 will be the exception for a while, hopefully I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the difference is in the way Konami develops their game. Is it just pure love of getting it right or do they think they market demands it? I'd imagine its the former, someone there must have given them the greenlight to get the job done right. EA's offering has always been behind but they can't blame lack of resources for that. Maybe Konami actually "cares" and that's why they produce such an excellent game, who knows, hard to tell with large companies today if its always just about the money or not.

# 39 luv_mist @ 04/09/05 11:42 PM

So many key thoughts and ideas. I honestly feel small because I'm so late and all the thoughts I had were put down on following pages. Sliders are abused a lot for times, but then they are great additions at other times. One key thing I can really view is the fact that NBA 2K5 was lacking in more aspects than one. Some that can't be fixed while others that shouldn't have slipped through the testing (Timeout bug, awkward subbing, HORRIBLE TRADING FOR THE millionth time). Still, the game does run smoother for me with the sliders. What the heck am I talking about? Honestly, I do like sliders and the ability to adjust the game.

Also, for the guy that explained why he watched games, I can understand. Even though it's not really an option in the basketball games that I play. Don't want to watch my team lose annd all cause that would defeat the purpose. Those who do it just to see how the computer plays are just idiots for the simple fact that a demo can be pre-played stuff by developers or games where the computer does play against itself. I don't know. Just so many different dimensions you can look at on this topic. Great support for every dimension. Still, I think we should start a letter telling these other sports games to increase their default settings following the example of WE8. Haven't played WE8 but I'm just seriously in love with it. That game has to be the greatest game every case I've heard no complaints or bashers against it. That's how all other sports should be. Pure and undivided attention to detail. Ya'll agree

# 40 SportsTop @ 04/10/05 01:17 AM

Interesting article overall. It just seemed to me that it was written more to take up some bits and bytes on this site to provoke comment.

I, myself, don't really agree with "watching" the CPU play games against itself, but there are people out there that question our desire to play video games based on real life and complain about them when they aren't real enough. Kind of bundles us in the same group as the CPU watchers as it would seem.

Quote:


	That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".

Here's where I get a little confused......

Aren't the "default" sliders (as brought up by the author) just like sliders developed by Pared or Jistic except they happen to be developed by people employed by EA? I mean really, what's the difference? I'd rather have my "default" sliders developed by people that I may happen to have some type of quasi-acquaintance with rather than people who get paid $12 an hour to make sure that they aren't getting 23-19 results everytime they play a baseball game.

At least I know that the sliders developers here at OS have the same vested interest in a game that I happen to like (just as they do) rather than the people that are creating the "default" sliders as part of their job, just passing the time, waiting for the clock to strike five.

Hell, for all I know these "default" sliders could be developed by people that barely even know what a baseball is, let alone that baseball is actually a sport.

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