News Post

NBA 2K7 Review (360)

02:23 PM - September 25, 2006 by Steve_OS

We have just posted our NBA 2K7 review. Find out what Aaron Holbert had to say about it.

"NBA 2K7 is here and I don’t think I’ve seen the sports gaming community anticipate a game this much since NFL 2K5. This has to do with a number of things. First, last year’s version was one the best reviewed and rated titles of 2005. Second, for the first time ever, 2K Sports decided to go all out with their promotion. The number of videos and screenshots for NBA 2K7 was staggering. Finally, all of the videos looked incredible and that along with the promised additions made me extremely excited to get this game. So much so that I drove three hours just to get the game a few days early. Yes, I know I have a problem."

Member Comments

# 21 Shaver @ 09/26/06 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBomber


	I think this is the spot where it is customary for me to insert my comment that OS finally consider a numeric system that is relevant I'm obviously a big fan of 2K Sports. That being said, no game is a 10 out of 10. Now 95 out of 100 or 97 out of 100 make sense, if you believe a game is near perfection but has some issues, but no game is perfect Don't worry, I am happy to keep letting you guys know it until you are finally willing to changing it to something that makes actual sense and is representative of the written review In this case I think I'd suggest somewhere in the 93-96 out of 100 range Have fun............

You tell everyone how Aaron's score does not fit the OS definition of a 10 out of 10, but does fit a 93-96 on a scale that you made up... and I'm sure Steve and Shawn will be more than happy to change it.

And, while your at it, please share your wisdom with us all on the difference between a 93 and 96 on said scale.

We'll see you next review.

# 22 KBomber @ 09/26/06 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	You tell everyone how Aaron's score does not fit the OS definition of a 10 out of 10, but does fit a 93-96 on a scale that you made up... and I'm sure Steve and Shawn will be more than happy to change it. And, while your at it, please share your wisdom with us all on the difference between a 93 and 96 on said scale. We'll see you next review.

As always, you guys are enormously sensitive to any for of criticism or suggestion and to that end, I'd only offer that maybe having less thin skin about any opinion that isn't in lock step with your own be treated with a bit more of an open mind.

First point, the score may very well fit the OS definition of what a 10 out of 10 should be. That being the case, the basic premise of the scoring system is flawed. If a game is, as noted, imperfect, the possibility of a perfect score should be an impossibility. Here Aaron himself makes note of the fact that the definition defines his score but that it essentially isn't representative of the game being perfect, so, once again we see where a reviewer is pidgeon-holed into a score rather than making a fair relation from their written comments to a numeric value

I haven't theorized in depth as to how Aaron's score relates to a numeric value. I've ballparked it, in a sense given the commentary, that while he believes the game is excellent, there are still some flaws. Essentially, the basis of how you guys establish your scoring system is up to you but right now you process is flawed, much in the same way that the subjective scoring systems in some Olympic sports where flawed and then re-addressed, in some cases more than once

My basic belief is that in rating games, much like in rating players in games, the possibility for being "Perfect" is an impossibility, no matter what Jamie Lee Curtis thinks. There is no such thing and any system that can deliver perfection as a score is fundamentally flawed. You guys take great care to take time to play these games. You take great care in choosing your words to describe your personal experiences with the game and then you just toss in a numeric value to describe all of that consideration without a care in the world, based on criteria that are flawed in their pre-determination. Aaron Holbert makes specific mention of this in his review in relating how he arrives at his numeric score and he isn't the first to do so. My simple challenge to your process is that if you yourselves see this as an issue in almost every review, why not expand the process by which you determine your numeric ratings to be more relevant and match the care and consideration given your text with a value that is equally well-considered and more appropriately defined

IGN breaks down games into criteria and assigns individual scores for each. That isn't a bad place to start, but I'm not suggesting that you emulate them because if you are familiar with how they review, you can score 5 out of 10 on 4 of 5 criteria and then still wind up with an overall score of 8.5 based on the fifth criteria being valued at a 7.6 (??HELLO??). Pick some criteria decide on your weighting of those and then format your review to match both the value of your comments to a well-considered and weighted numeric value. It seems pretty simple to me

This site strives to be the word on sports gaming. I keep challenging this site to take that objective seriously and run with, thereby allowing yourselves to truly be the voice of the sports gaming market. There are many things that you do well but there are still some that need work. This is one of those things. At the end of the day that's my opinion, and out here in Guelph that's worth about a hill of small beans (maybe less...) but the idea is that maybe it's worth noting

If not who gives a rat's *** and just go off and do what the hell you want to anyways. It doesn't mean that my opinion changes just because you disagree with me

I guess that's the way opinions work

Have ffun.........

# 23 KBomber @ 09/26/06 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nucahx


	I think that it is pointless to have a 10/10 system and never be able to give a game a 10. Any case where you would consider giving a game a perfect score you always need to ask the question: "Is this the definitive game in the genre?" If the answer is yes then you can give the game a score of 10/10 while pointing out any flaws that the game may still have. 10/10 doesn't mean perfect, it only means best of the best. That's why you have a number, and a text review.

Yeah, I disagree

Have fun..........

# 24 Shaver @ 09/26/06 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBomber


	As always, you guys are enormously sensitive to any for of criticism or suggestion and to that end, I'd only offer that maybe having less thin skin about any opinion that isn't in lock step with your own be treated with a bit more of an open mind. First point, the score may very well fit the OS definition of what a 10 out of 10 should be. That being the case, the basic premise of the scoring system is flawed. If a game is, as noted, imperfect, the possibility of a perfect score should be an impossibility. Here Aaron himself makes note of the fact that the definition defines his score but that it essentially isn't representative of the game being perfect, so, once again we see where a reviewer is pidgeon-holed into a score rather than making a fair relation from their written comments to a numeric value I haven't theorized in depth as to how Aaron's score relates to a numeric value. I've ballparked it, in a sense given the commentary, that while he believes the game is excellent, there are still some flaws. Essentially, the basis of how you guys establish your scoring system is up to you but right now you process is flawed, much in the same way that the subjective scoring systems in some Olympic sports where flawed and then re-addressed, in some cases more than once My basic belief is that in rating games, much like in rating players in games, the possibility for being "Perfect" is an impossibility, no matter what Jamie Lee Curtis thinks. There is no such thing and any system that can deliver perfection as a score is fundamentally flawed. You guys take great care to take time to play these games. You take great care in choosing your words to describe your personal experiences with the game and then you just toss in a numeric value to describe all of that consideration without a care in the world, based on criteria that are flawed in their pre-determination. Aaron Holbert makes specific mention of this in his review in relating how he arrives at his numeric score and he isn't the first to do so. My simple challenge to your process is that if you yourselves see this as an issue in almost every review, why not expand the process by which you determine your numeric ratings to be more relevant and match the care and consideration given your text with a value that is equally well-considered and more appropriately defined IGN breaks down games into criteria and assigns individual scores for each. That isn't a bad place to start, but I'm not suggesting that you emulate them because if you are familiar with how they review, you can score 5 out of 10 on 4 of 5 criteria and then still wind up with an overall score of 8.5 based on the fifth criteria being valued at a 7.6 (??HELLO??). Pick some criteria decide on your weighting of those and then format your review to match both the value of your comments to a well-considered and weighted numeric value. It seems pretty simple to me This site strives to be the word on sports gaming. I keep challenging this site to take that objective seriously and run with, thereby allowing yourselves to truly be the voice of the sports gaming market. There are many things that you do well but there are still some that need work. This is one of those things. At the end of the day that's my opinion, and out here in Guelph that's worth about a hill of small beans (maybe less...) but the idea is that maybe it's worth noting If not who gives a rat's *** and just go off and do what the hell you want to anyways. It doesn't mean that my opinion changes just because you disagree with me I guess that's the way opinions work Have ffun.........

Once again you have failed to make a valid point to defend your argument and your ballpark. In addition, your next homework assignment (should you choose to accept it) is to tell me how (a) Operation Sports is dropping the ball in terms of being the voice for the Sports Gamer and (b) explain to me why fitting neatly inside the same box as IGN, Gamespot, etc... is a good thing?

It's very easy to run into a room, yell out an opinion, and run out without ever giving a justification, but your show is becoming repetitive. You have found a creative loophole for trolling. It's not a bother to anyone. I just only think that it is fair for your to respond to "challenges" as well.

# 25 KBomber @ 09/26/06 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	Once again you have failed to make a valid point to defend your argument and your ballpark. In addition, your next homework assignment (should you choose to accept it) is to tell me how (a) Operation Sports is dropping the ball in terms of being the voice for the Sports Gamer and (b) explain to me why fitting neatly inside the same box as IGN, Gamespot, etc... is a good thing? It's very easy to run into a room, yell out an opinion, and run out without ever giving a justification, but your show is becoming repetitive. You have found a creative loophole for trolling. It's not a bother to anyone. I just only think that it is fair for your to respond to "challenges" as well.

With respect to my homework assignment "Teach", in the very line where I offered the IGN model, I also suggested that those parameters need not necessarily be followed verbatim. In fact I offered how you might review your process. I'm offering a way in which you could enhance your review process, you can take it or leave it, but it is a common thing to see reviewers on this site, in review, add a disclaimer concerning their numeric values for their reviews. If it is something that you have to talk about, then it is something that's worth discussing

Your right on your opinion concerning opinions but that goes for your own as well

If you can't take an opinion with getting all weepy waily, what are you doing on a message board?

Have fun, there Mr. Sensitivity.............

# 26 Shaver @ 09/26/06 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBomber


	With respect to my homework assignment "Teach", in the very line where I offered the IGN model, I also suggested that those parameters need not necessarily be followed verbatim. In fact I offered how you might review your process. I'm offering a way in which you could enhance your review process, you can take it or leave it, but it is a common thing to see reviewers on this site, in review, add a disclaimer concerning their numeric values for their reviews. If it is something that you have to talk about, then it is something that's worth discussing Your right on your opinion concerning opinions but that goes for your own as well If you can't take an opinion with getting all weepy waily, what are you doing on a message board? Have fun, there Mr. Sensitivity.............

The sad part is you occasionally make a somewhat valid point and then you negate it by trying to personally attack people who simply ask you to qualify your statement.

The Reviewers on this site will, on occasion, offer a statement on the score because we have a large audience who factor everything into that number (like yourself).

Finally, know your history...

OS has in the past used multiple scoring systems. We did a 1-100, but people argued that a game didn't deserve a 89... it should have gotten an 87. Foolish. We tried a 1-5, which severly handcuffed our writers. We tried removing scores all together and people were outraged. When Shawn became the Managing Editor, we finally settled on the 10 point system and he gave our Staff definitions for each score. Shawn's system is rock solid internally and, to be frank, he has the credentials in this industry (and others) to trust this direction.

Thank you for your opinions. We'll be releasing at least one new review every day this week, including 3 of mine. I'll look forward to hearing what I've done wrong on each.

# 27 KBomber @ 09/26/06 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_OS


	The sad part is you occasionally make a somewhat valid point and then you negate it by trying to personally attack people who simply ask you to qualify your statement. The Reviewers on this site will, on occasion, offer a statement on the score because we have a large audience who factor everything into that number (like yourself). Finally, know your history... OS has in the past used multiple scoring systems. We did a 1-100, but people argued that a game didn't deserve a 89... it should have gotten an 87. Foolish. We tried a 1-5, which severly handcuffed our writers. We tried removing scores all together and people were outraged. When Shawn became the Managing Editor, we finally settled on the 10 point system and he gave our Staff definitions for each score. Shawn's system is rock solid internally and, to be frank, he has the credentials in this industry (and others) to trust this direction. Thank you for your opinions. We'll be releasing at least one new review every day this week, including 3 of mine. I'll look forward to hearing what I've done wrong on each.

Calling you over-sensitive is as much an opinion as a personal attack, you can view it either way, quite honestly. If you guys are committed to a 10 point scale, I still think that you are better served if that is expressed to decimal places, is weighted to varying criteria and considers the fact that no game is perfect, thereby eliminating scores of 10 in the first place

That's it, that's all

Have fun...................

# 28 KymeraGB @ 09/26/06 12:53 PM

Great post, im actually gettign it today and cant wait to take my Bucks all the way!!!

# 29 sdrotar @ 09/26/06 04:14 PM

KBomber, if I had my way, there would be no scores whatsoever.
In my opinion, they serve no purpose other than to draw attention away from the text of the review - where the actual information resides.

"Scores" have become an Internet strawman - a construct that is purely arbitrary and offers no real value to the reader.

You may be able to tell me a game is a "93" or a "96", but that's purely your subjective opinion based on what you prefer in gaming. This is not to minimize your opinion, which is wholly valid, but rather a statement explaining the vagaries of any "scoring" system.

What qualifies as a "93" or "96" - to me - might be entirely different, which would render my "score" useless for you.

It's a quandary in gaming journalism - if such a thing even exists in the mainstream, but I do know one thing for certain: arguing over a "score" from either side is akin to a puff of sand in a tornado; noticeable momentarily, and potentially aggravating, to be sure, but in the end, it makes no real difference at all.

# 30 KBomber @ 09/26/06 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdrotar


	KBomber, if I had my way, there would be no scores whatsoever. In my opinion, they serve no purpose other than to draw attention away from the text of the review - where the actual information resides. "Scores" have become an Internet strawman - a construct that is purely arbitrary and offers no real value to the reader. You may be able to tell me a game is a "93" or a "96", but that's purely your subjective opinion based on what you prefer in gaming. This is not to minimize your opinion, which is wholly valid, but rather a statement explaining the vagaries of any "scoring" system. What qualifies as a "93" or "96" - to me - might be entirely different, which would render my "score" useless for you. It's a quandary in gaming journalism - if such a thing even exists in the mainstream, but I do know one thing for certain: arguing over a "score" from either side is akin to a puff of sand in a tornado; noticeable momentarily, and potentially aggravating, to be sure, but in the end, it makes no real difference at all.

Shawn, I think your response actually makes the most sense to me and is pretty much what I've said in the past on the subject and I agree with you. Like I said in my original post, you guys take time and care to give a thoughtful review and then the numeric score almost serves as a throw away.

My understanding is that the scores serve as a tool to get OS listed on sites like Gamerankings.com. While I understand that, going back to Clay's point "explain to me why fitting neatly inside the same box as IGN, Gamespot, etc... is a good thing?"

Shooting from the cheap seats, I think OS needs to determine what is more important; the consideration of the review copy or throwing a down and dirty numeric out there to get traffic. To me, if the numeric score is as important for generating traffic as is claimed, then you owe it to yourselves to make it every bit as well considered as your copy. That, to me, is the best of both worlds. One should be equally reflective of the other if it is all going to tie in together and make sense

Are numeric scores a strawman as you say? I'd be akin to agreement on that statement, but so many consumers are basing purchase decisions on those scores, without spending time with the meat of detail as offered in the text of reviews. That's where I think the responsibility element factors into my argument. Providing relevance in both elements of the review will just help to lend that much more credence to an OS review when more casual readers are appraising your reviews. Again that's opinion, it's based in minutia, but then so are 99.9% of the conversations on these boards. If we weren't relatively obsessed with the minutia of these arguments, we wouldn't be on these boards.

In any event, I appreciate your opinion and how you've approached the question

Have fun................

# 31 solutions @ 09/27/06 09:38 AM

OS Usually don't post reviews of a game this fast. Am I right?? I know Aaron got the game early but in the past you guys don't post a review of a game until weeks after it's been out. Afterall you just getting around to Madden for the x-box. That's why I always like your reviews cause you didn't feel the need to be the first ones with a review. That being said it was still a good review but if he played it longer maybe he could have found some other flaws or maybe not

# 32 faster @ 09/27/06 10:21 AM

I would add that a scoring system on SPORTS games is even more difficult than other games. Each year sports games get upgrades. If you give NBA2K7 a 10 this year, and next year they add even more features, potentially fix a couple little issues, then what? An instant 10 again? That's the difficulty in the sports gaming industry. There's ALWAYS next year.

If we're talking Halo, Half-Life, Oblivion, etc, those are games that simply stand by themselves. There may be sequels, but they won't be simply 99% of the same game with simple additions. Games that simply change the genre or do everything right should be given 10s. Nobody can tell me you can't give out a 10 in those cases. A game that simply delivers on every level and changes the genre, has long-lasting playability, and is just a wonder to behold in every sense should be allowed to receive a perfect score.

Now back to sports games. Obviously perfection in sports games is almost unachievable. Perfection in ANYTHING is unachievable, BUT if you have a scale, the top of that rating scale must be achievable. Does that mean perfection? No, it means the highest quality game that can be produced AT THE TIME. At some time we have to recognize a simply outstanding sports achievement, a game that improves tremendously and ups to ante to every others game that competes with it. Barring major issues, this game should be allowed to get a 10. That would simply mean that achievement, that advancement, that game, at that specific time/year, raised the bar and suddenly became "the" standard. Sometimes it's only a 95, but for the rare game that simply brilliantly outpaces what anybody thought was possible, then you get the 10. That system should not be abused however, and if you look at OS's past, they reserve that ranking for an elite group.

# 33 rudyjuly2 @ 09/27/06 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBomber


	I think this is the spot where it is customary for me to insert my comment that OS finally consider a numeric system that is relevant

Why must you hijack every review thread with your rant on the OS scoring system? How many times does it need to be explained? There is a difference of opinion here that will not change. Get over it already.

Have you ever had a gorgeous woman walk by and said (outloud or in your head) "That's a 10!". You would be lying to yourself then too because nobody's perfect. The movie 10 should be stricken down and changed to 9.6. Any show using a 10 score like Dancing with the Stars should have the 10 option removed since a 10 is impossible. Its all relative and people should be allowed to score games a 10 if the scale goes that far. Just allow yourself to think that the rounding system means a 10 is simply a 9.51 or higher and no, we don't need to be that specific.

Lastly, I thought the review was a great review that detailed a ton of stuff. I don't even own a 360 nor do I play much video hoops at all anymore and I was intrigued.

Edit: Very well said penguit.

# 34 KBomber @ 09/27/06 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudyjuly2


	Why must you hijack every review thread with your rant on the OS scoring system? How many times does it need to be explained? There is a difference of opinion here that will not change. Get over it already. Have you ever had a gorgeous woman walk by and said (outloud or in your head) "That's a 10!". You would be lying to yourself then too because nobody's perfect. The movie 10 should be stricken down and changed to 9.6. Any show using a 10 score like Dancing with the Stars should have the 10 option removed since a 10 is impossible. Its all relative and people should be allowed to score games a 10 if the scale goes that far. Just allow yourself to think that the rounding system means a 10 is simply a 9.51 or higher and no, we don't need to be that specific. Lastly, I thought the review was a great review that detailed a ton of stuff. I don't even own a 360 nor do I play much video hoops at all anymore and I was intrigued. Edit: Very well said penguit.

No, I even give my wife a 9.8

Although her homemade macaroni and cheese last night warranted a 9.85

Glad to hear about your level of intrigue

Have fun...........

# 35 Mjphillips @ 09/28/06 01:19 PM

Pretty cool fellas. This is the reason I come back to this site. It is cool when all is said and nobody's feelings are truly hurt. I disregard a lot of the flaming because that is easy, but this was a wonderful discussion to read. Keep it up.

# 36 xrams @ 09/29/06 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBomber

Quote:

Originally Posted by nucahx

I think that it is pointless to have a 10/10 system and never be able to give a game a 10. Any case where you would consider giving a game a perfect score you always need to ask the question: "Is this the definitive game in the genre?" If the answer is yes then you can give the game a score of 10/10 while pointing out any flaws that the game may still have. 10/10 doesn't mean perfect, it only means best of the best. That's why you have a number, and a text review.

Yeah, I disagree

Have fun..........

I agree with this nucahx... my sentiments exactly...

K... technically I see where your coming from... however, a perfect score can be given within the realm of competitive games offered for the current yr... the NBA 2K iterations have shown (comparative) market improvement annually... based on what's available that could very well justify a prefect score... I wouldn't have given NFL2K5 a prefect score 2yrs ago... but now I do... based on what (comps) available and replayability....

In terms of the OS review... they are all good reads.. the EA Head Coach review (had me wanting to buy the game) in particular.... and of course on a low note the Madden 07 review as with most folks could/should have been more scrutinous (score wise)... if only b/c it is the only game in town....

PS... I must commend and prise the OS brian trust for at least having the mental stamina/testicles to respond and leave themselves open too both accolades/criticism regarding their reviews... that alone says something...

# 37 xrams @ 09/29/06 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguit


	I would add that a scoring system on SPORTS games is even more difficult than other games. Each year sports games get upgrades. If you give NBA2K7 a 10 this year, and next year they add even more features, potentially fix a couple little issues, then what? An instant 10 again? That's the difficulty in the sports gaming industry. There's ALWAYS next year.

penguit... by the same token... if the game was given a 9/10 two years ago.... then showed market improvement last yr. and this yr. (on it's own merit)... eventually 10 is in the cards whether it be this yr or the next... that's why (IMO) current available (publisher comp) is so crucial to this process as a whole... you at least have a some control to make a (consumer) value measurement...

# 38 RyanHollweg44 @ 10/03/06 12:17 AM

i saw the screen shots and the reviews..im so in....

« Previous 12Next »

More Links

NBA 2K7 Review (360)