Baseball Strategy Thread

[GoldenEagle]

The thread about the brawl in the Reds game got me thinking about this thread...

It is designed to test FOFCer's knowldege of the fundamentals of the game of baseball. It should lead to some constructive arguments as well. Imagine yourself as a coach, and you have to tell your player what to do in a situtation.

I will start things off.....

A high pop-fly is hit behind home plate where the catcher can easily catch it. What is the first thing the catcher should do after getting up from his croutched position and locating the ball?

[cthomer5000]

remove his mask.

[panerd]

throw your mask towards the dugout so you don't trip over it when going for the ball

[GoldenEagle]

Ok, he could remove his mask first.

But after that....

What huge fundamental mistake do most catchers make, esp. at a young age?

[KWhit]

This should be an interesteing thread. I love baseball strategy, but I don't know what you're going for here...

[GoldenEagle]

Come on guys think hard...

It puts the catcher at a major disadvantage if he does not do this.

[ISiddiqui]

What huge fundamental mistake do most catchers make, esp. at a young age?

They... um... raise their mitts before they actually run to the spot the ball is going to come down?

I dunno, wild guess .

[GoldenEagle]

Nope.

It might be so simple that you do not even think about it. But I umpire youth baseball and I see so many catchers miss pop ups because they forget to do this.

I always construct them how to do it the correct way. One time, a coach on the oppsing team heard me do this. Well, the last play of the game his team was losing and the batter hit a popup behind the plate. The catcher did exactly what I said and caught the ball to end the game. That coach chewed me out for 10 minutes after the game, saying I should not have taught the kid to do that. Keep in mind that was 9 year old baseball. What a jerk.

[Travis]

I know one mistake is for the catcher to immediately throw their mask. They should take it off, locate the ball and move into a position to catch it, then throw the mask so that there is no chance that they will trip over it instead of just ripping it off and throwing it before they know where the pop up went.

Also, in case this is it, they should do a 180 so that they aren't backpedalling for the ball, as it's easier to trip that way as well, only saying that because of the 'so simple you may not think about it' statement.

[Solecismic]

Also, because of the spin on the ball, it is much easier to catch it if you turn around. Most cases, it's easier to track, as well. Travis is also completely right about holding the mask until you're sure you won't throw it where you'll trip over it. Another "mistake" some catchers make is accidentally throwing the mask at the umpire. That's a good way to ensure every pitch on the corner is a ball the rest of the game.

[cincyreds]

Is that Jim????

By adding to this thread, does this drop a little hint?

Who knows?

Could be?

[GoldenEagle]

That is correct Travis and Jim.

A better way to think about it is if an outfielder has to turn around and run toward the outfield fence, its alot harder to make the catch. So why should the cathcer put himself at the same disadvantage?

[KWhit]

And some idiot coach yelled at you for telling your catcher to turn around to go after the ball?

What a dope.

[GoldenEagle]

Yep. At nine and ten year old baseball we try to do alot of coaching as well.

Some coaches just dont get it. His argument was that the catcher's coach should tell him.

Next scenario (feel free to add your own).

Runners on first and second. The ball is hit to anywhere in the outfield. Where should your pitcher go after the ball is hit?

[lcjjdnh]

Back up third?

[KWhit]

Back up the catcher if the ball is hit on the ground.

[GoldenEagle]

You both are correct. The pitcher should go halfway between third and the plate. Then he should see where the throw is going, then back up the base where the throw is going.

[EagleFan]

I was going to say take out the runner if he tries to score. Full contact baseball.


Bases loaded with no outs. A pop up fair near the third base line, halfway between third and home. The pitcher should...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Bases loaded with no outs. A pop up fair near the third base line, halfway between third and home. The pitcher should...

Scratch himself leisurely while waiting for the ump to call the infield fly?

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by EagleFan
I was going to say take out the runner if he tries to score. Full contact baseball.


Bases loaded with no outs. A pop up fair near the third base line, halfway between third and home. The pitcher should...

Yea, infield fly rule is in effect. The third baseman will probably take the pop-up meaning the pitcher should cover third. If it not an easily catchable ball as the rule defines, the third baseman will probably not have time to charge in and get the ball. In that case the pitcher should take the ball after it hits the ground and throw the ball to the plate or tag the runner coming home (a smart runner will avoid the tag). The catcher, after receiving the ball, should then throw to first, after shouting where he is throwing the ball inside or outside.

[EagleFan]

Judgement call. If the third baseman can get to it than yeah, go cover third. If not the pitcher should place himself in position to take it. Now what I usually teah is practicing the 'drop' just to see if the runners realize the infield fly rule is in effect, making for an easy tag out if the runner on third starts going home thinking an error was just made. It all depends on timing though, never attempt that purposely if you can't get set under the ball easily to pick it up on the bounce.

Okay, that's not exactly text book, but anything to get an advantage.

[EagleFan]

dola: You're up by 2 runs in the 9th. There's a runner at 2nd with two outs. A base hit to right. The runner is heading home.

The right fielder should...
The second baseman...
The pitcher...
The shortstop...

[KWhit]

The right fielder should... Throw to the cutoff man (the second baseman).

The second baseman... Should be the cutoff man.

The pitcher... backup the SS

The shortstop cover second base


The idea is to make sure the hitter DOESN'T get to 2nd base in scoring position. You should let the run score.

[GoldenEagle]

I agree with KWhit.

[kcchief19]

Hmmm... That is certainly the safest call, but I would prefer my defensive players be more aggressive. If it is a sharply hit ball and a play at the plate is possible, I would rather see the RF throw low to the plate so that the cutoff man (the 1B in this case) either lets the throw go through or cuts it off.

You let the 2B cover first, the SS covers second and the pitcher backs up the plate. Not knowing if the 1B will cutoff the throw freezes the runner. If the runner makes a mistake, you may even be able to catch him napping with a wide turn. And finally you have the possibility of getting out of the game without bringing the winning run to the plate.

That is only if it is sharply hit. If not, then I agree that you throw the ball in and hold the runner at first for sure.

[sony]

Shouldn't the Pitcher backup the Catcher and let the SS cover 2nd on his own ???

[GoldenEagle]

If the throw is not coming to the plate, then the pitcher is wasted backing up the play at the plate.

If the 1st baseman is cutting the ball, then no one is covering first and the runner can get about halfway, then the runner will advance to second if the 1B lets the ball through.

[Travis]

dola: You're up by 2 runs in the 9th. There's a runner at 2nd with two outs. A base hit to right. The runner is heading home.

The right fielder should... Come up throwing on a line for home plate
The second baseman... act as a possible cutoff on that throw
The pitcher... covers the catcher
The shortstop... covers second in case of a play at the base

And KC, why would you pull your 1B to cut, while making your 2B cross the path of the ball to cover first instead of letting the 2B make the cutoff? And on a side note, the 3B should be ready to get over and get involved in a rundown between 1st and 2nd should that play begin on a cutoff. Also, the CF should be moving into a position to cover an errant throw over 2B from 1B in a rundown situation, while the LF moves in towards 3B. If it evolves into a rundown situation, the SS and 3B are on the 2B side, while the 1B and 2B take the 1B side, with the C or P moving into a backup role behind 1B in case of an overthrow.

[EagleFan]

I go with Travis' response, sort of, but would rather try for the relay throw. That way the ball is in the cut-off man's hands which will freeze the runner at first and add the option of being able to go after the runner at first if he makes a wide turn or just got lazy.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by EagleFan
I go with Travis' response, sort of, but would rather try for the relay throw. That way the ball is in the cut-off man's hands which will freeze the runner at first and add the option of being able to go after the runner at first if he makes a wide turn or just got lazy.

But who is the cut off man?

[KWhit]

The 2nd baseman.

Right?

[GoldenEagle]

If the Second Baseman is cutting the ball he is going to be in the outfield, unless he backtracks to the infield, which is very rare for the second baseman to do.

[illinifan999]

For us only time 2nd baseman takes the relay is if he is cutting to third. Otherwise if it is hit to right first takes the cut, left third takes the cut. That's going home. Otherwise short takes the cut to third and second if its hit to left or center and second takes it if it's from right.

[KWhit]

Okay, right. If you're throwing to the plate, the cutoff man wouldn't be the 2B.

I still say that you play it safe and let the run score, but make sure you keep the hitter out of scoring position. So the throw goes to second, IMO.

[illinifan999]

Originally posted by GoldenEagle

I always construct them how to do it the correct way. One time, a coach on the oppsing team heard me do this. Well, the last play of the game his team was losing and the batter hit a popup behind the plate. The catcher did exactly what I said and caught the ball to end the game. That coach chewed me out for 10 minutes after the game, saying I should not have taught the kid to do that. Keep in mind that was 9 year old baseball. What a jerk.

Dola, I umped 9 and 10 year olds last year. Me and my partner (we switched off at second and home) wouldnt hesitate to throw someone out. We had one game where it was a close play at third and the thirdbasemen dropped it, so I called the runner safe. The parent was screaming to the point of almost verbally abusing us and the opposing teams players. After a brief talk (Imagine a 14 year old lecturing a 35 year old man) we got him to calm down. Then towards the end of the game I'm guessing it was his son (He kept calling him son) got hit by a pitch. Then he gets out of his seat walks to the backstop and starts yelling at my partner that the pitcher intentionally hit his kid. Then he started to swear and we threw him out. I felt so sorry for his kid to have a parent think that 9/10 year olds were trying to intentionally hit someone and then have the nerve to start swearing.

[illinifan999]

Originally posted by KWhit
Okay, right. If you're throwing to the plate, the cutoff man wouldn't be the 2B.

I still say that you play it safe and let the run score, but make sure you keep the hitter out of scoring position. So the throw goes to second, IMO.

Yeah I agree with that. That first run means nothing, but that second run could spell disaster.

[clintl]

The proper positioning:

RF - should throw the ball the second baseman or SS, and let the run score
2B - Positioned as cut-off between the RF and the SS
P - Back up the C in case the RF screws up and throws through to the plate
SS - Covers 2B
1B - Positioned as cutoff between RF and the plate

The LF can back up the SS on an errant throw from the RF.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by illinifan999
Dola, I umped 9 and 10 year olds last year. Me and my partner (we switched off at second and home) wouldnt hesitate to throw someone out. We had one game where it was a close play at third and the thirdbasemen dropped it, so I called the runner safe. The parent was screaming to the point of almost verbally abusing us and the opposing teams players. After a brief talk (Imagine a 14 year old lecturing a 35 year old man) we got him to calm down. Then towards the end of the game I'm guessing it was his son (He kept calling him son) got hit by a pitch. Then he gets out of his seat walks to the backstop and starts yelling at my partner that the pitcher intentionally hit his kid. Then he started to swear and we threw him out. I felt so sorry for his kid to have a parent think that 9/10 year olds were trying to intentionally hit someone and then have the nerve to start swearing.

As an umpire, we are taught never, ever talk to fans. Only the head coach. If I have a problem with a fan, I go to the head coach and tell him "If I hear the fan again, I am going to toss you (the head coach) and the fan." 99.9% that will shut them up.

[Maple Leafs]

I umpired for a few seasons when i was younger. The pay was good ($20/game, much better than I'd get working a shift at McDonalds) and I got to work outside, so it seemed like a good idea.

Eventually, I gave it up. Why? Because of the same idiots you guys ran into. I just wasn't committed enough to the job to put up with these people. These folks don't seem understand that they're watching children. I think the worst part is that they don't realize what they're doing to the poor kid... I've seen kids crying in the batter's box because daddy's making an ass out of himself.

Although I will say that being constantly harassed, abused and yelled at every time I opened my mouth did turn out to be good preperation for marriage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by illinifan999 I felt so sorry for his kid to have a parent think that 9/10 year olds were trying to intentionally hit someone ...

Aside from the rest of the story, did you just mean to imply that 9/10 year olds never threw at anybody?

If so, you must have a very different sort of league than any I've ever been involved with as player, coach or fan.

I've seen more "purpose pitches" than I can count (although as many missed as hit) once you reach 9 or so, any age really as long as there's enough control to have a shot at making the pitch.

[Travis]

Really, this entire scenario depends on how sharply hit the ball is, how deep it is when the RF gets to it, and what angle they had to take to get to the ball as compared to which arm they throw with (ie momentum already going towards the throw).

If it's possible to go to the plate, I still like that option, but coming in with a low, hard throw that is easily cut off, so that the runner at 1st has to wait until the ball is at least past the cut off man to advance, as he doesn't know if it'll be cut off or not. If he has to wait that long, then the catcher should be able to get the ball to second before the runner anyway. In that scenario, it's risk/reward, as you're more likely to get that guy in a rundown situation between 1st and 2nd instead of just giving him 1st on a throw in to 2nd. On the other hand, the likeliness of some sort of mishap is a bit higher, so the odds of him ending up on 2nd also go up. As I said, risk/reward, and in the end, depends a lot on your personnel and how much faith you have in them.

Oh, and a big big factor in this, is who would be up to bat next, who's on deck as well, as they may be an easy out, or somebody you really don't want to face at all.

[Travis]

btw, great thread idea. It's these kind of situations that can win or lose ballgames depending on how well player's know each other's strength's and weaknesses and how well coached they are for any given situation.

[Balldog]

Originally posted by EagleFan
dola: You're up by 2 runs in the 9th. There's a runner at 2nd with two outs. A base hit to right. The runner is heading home.

The right fielder should...
The second baseman...
The pitcher...
The shortstop...

Damn I got here to late.

RF throws to 2nd.
2B cuts is cutoff to 2nd.
P backs up home.
SS plays 2nd.
LF backs up play at 2nd.
1B is cut off to home.

That's what we do anyway.

The RF should not throw the ball anywhere but to second base, you can't risk allowing the tying run to get into scoring position while try to make an out on a meaningless run.

[Balldog]

Originally posted by EagleFan
I was going to say take out the runner if he tries to score. Full contact baseball.


Bases loaded with no outs. A pop up fair near the third base line, halfway between third and home. The pitcher should...

3B should catch pop up
SS should cover third
P should call 3B's name

[Travis]

Bases loaded with no outs. A pop up fair near the third base line, halfway between third and home. The pitcher should...

Batter is declared out on the infield fly, pitcher heads to the dugout to get some water while the 3B catches the ball and checks the runner.

Balldog hit this one pretty much dead on the nose for each position. Only thing that could be added is that the pitcher could move towards home to act as a possible cover in case the runner at 3rd tries something really stupid, with the LF moving into position to cover 3B, CF moves to cover a throw to 2B with the RF moving to cover a throw to 1B.

[stkelly52]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Judgement call. If the third baseman can get to it than yeah, go cover third. If not the pitcher should place himself in position to take it. Now what I usually teah is practicing the 'drop' just to see if the runners realize the infield fly rule is in effect, making for an easy tag out if the runner on third starts going home thinking an error was just made. It all depends on timing though, never attempt that purposely if you can't get set under the ball easily to pick it up on the bounce.

Okay, that's not exactly text book, but anything to get an advantage.

Terrible idea. Never ever use the "drop" if the ball is close to the foul line. The ball very well may roll foul and then you would have just turned an out into a strike.

[EagleFan]

Not once you've touched it in fair territory. By drop I mean actual drop. Angle the glove down so it appears to roll out, you'll get a clean bounce back up to you. I nearly had an unassisted triple play on that ij little league. Let the ball flop grabbed it the runner was coming home, right at me, tagged him for the second out and dove towards the sliding runner going into third but just missed him. Would have nailed him if the third baseman wasn;t standing around and actually covered third.

For my other one, I have the second baseman in the outfield as a relay more so than a cut off. That way is't a short throw to him with less room for a bad throw. He takes it and pivots and the rest is up to his choice. Also good pickup on the one tht mentioned LF to backup throw to second. I knew I missed someone.

[Balldog]

You should be teaching kids in little league fundamentals not deception.

[GoldenEagle]

I saw this trick play the other day while umpiring.....

Runners on second and third with one out, the team was in the field was up by a run. The 10 year old catcher stepped out and signaled something. I figured it was just the defensive alignment.

Well the kid batting took a swing at the third pitch and hit it to the shortstop. The SS looked the guy back to third then faked a throw to first. The first baseman jumped up and all the parents and coaches were standing on the first base line reacted like the ball was about to hit him. One coach who was sitting on a bucket even fell over.

Well the kid on third just ran home. The SS threw it to the plate and the catcher tagged the kid out. The runner advancing to thid was also thrown out.

Game over.

[Travis]

We used to do stuff like that when there was a runner on third, just without all the theatrics. Playing third, if the ball was hit to me, I'd look at the runner, then make the fake throw to 1st, and first thing you'd hear is that third base coach yelling, GO GO GO! Always loved the look on the coaches face when I'd turn around with the ball and tag the runner as he was starting his sprint. Worked really well when it was done quickly enough to still make the throw to first to get that out as well.

Ah, fond memories.