Finesse Rush vs Power Rush [video]

[LBzrule]

Just to add. They need more DLine animations and less engage then perform move. They need to actually be fluid movements where a guy can perform a move without getting stuck first. The movement is still train track movement. That is to say, everyone is on a track and they cannot get off of it until they engage someone. Notice here:


Notice the stunting DLinemen in this video. They are not touching anyone. They will sell it like they are going to rush and then perform the stunt.

[RogueHominid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I respect that and didn't intend to derail the thread. That said, I have one more question before I bow out of this thread. Baller linked to this video from NY Kia, whom you also mentioned in this post. Please help me to understand what is so football fundamental about what is in this video versus what seems to me to be exploiting/manipulating the program, in unintended ways, to get a desired result. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o--u5...vqzZ0v&index=2 All the predetermined reblitzing and audibling at the LOS, that's real football strategy and the way the game is intentionally programmed for Users to replicate football?

Hey bud. I like a lot of what you say and appreciate your perspective and intense investment in getting the most real football out of Madden, so I'll just start there so everything is in its proper perspective.

The post below about how to set up the All Madden sliders so you can actually see those animations and not get canned every time (which is infuriating) was awesome. I'm going to try it when I get home. The tell-all is if you can keep the shove you in the chest, get off me move.

Now on to Kia and that stuff ... I don'l look at it as gaming the game. I look at it as trying to figure out what the game actually allows you to do that makes football sense that they either just didn't tell us or didn't realize themselves.

All that matters to me is that there are principles I believe in that can be used in the game, and watching a couple of tutorials on shading, backing off, playing up, when you'd want to shade and which way given your help up top or lack thereof, was SUPER helpful and added an element of GENUINE STRATEGY to my defense that was lacking.

I would assume that CBs playing up close might jump routes more than they do, but they don't; they trail. Which is why they often get beat by inside routes.

DBs who play off, however, jump more routes, and this realistic. Look at Samuel, or even Champ (despite his embarrassment the other day). They stay back, peek, and jump for picks. Now I know how to set up my players to play to their strengths, play to a certain set of S help, or look for specific route types that I want to take away.

I can choose to use these techniques in a real way, and that's what I do. If I smell a strategy that's supposed to work every time, I walk away without even finishing the tutorial or discussion.

Lots of this is latent frustration at EA for putting things in that are halfway done, not seeming to care about basic details, and not telling us what we can actually do with the game because they may not know themselves. Discussions like these allow us to fight back, lol, and take charge of OUR game and make it the best we can.

My .02 anyway. Off to teach . . .

[Qb]

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

The Steelers playbook is perfect for them. Green Bay's is also a good fit since Dom Capers is a direct disciple of Lebeau... ...Pretty much every 3-4 book has access to all of the fire zone concepts (from cross fire to overload stunts) and because of this pick your book based on your nickel and dime preferences.

Based on my limited exploration, I suspected most of the plays were similar and it was mainly the packages that differed. I needed to be more specific up front, but if it's not too much trouble, I have a question or two about the differences in packages (yeah, I said that).

The Steelers book seems somewhat "vanilla" to me in the way it utilizes blitzers, namely DBs (esp Polamalu). Aside from one dime package -- forgive my lack of proper terminology, I'm no guru -- that puts him in the slot, he seems to have a pretty basic role in their scheme. Sure there are some safety blitzes to get him involved and showing blitz might move him around a little. But, I guess what I'd like to find is a 3-4 playbook that has some sort of unique role that moves a safety (or possibly LB) around the field thru different packages to create different blitz/coverage looks. Does such a thing exist in Madden?

Thanks again.

[Phobia]

I just want to say I love this discussion and offers great insight. I just want to ask baller. Can you explain "Slide Protection" and how to utilize it effectively in game?

Reason I ask, is I rarely use it because when I do pick up a blitz and use it, it always seems to allow a free runner at some point. Almost like the lineman become confused by the shift. About the only time I make use of it on a consistent basis is on designed roll outs. I find sliding to the roll out direction will buy more realistic time to work towards the side line for the open receiver.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by Qb

Based on my limited exploration, I suspected most of the plays were similar and it was mainly the packages that differed. I needed to be more specific up front, but if it's not too much trouble, I have a question or two about the differences in packages (yeah, I said that). The Steelers book seems somewhat "vanilla" to me in the way it utilizes blitzers, namely DBs (esp Polamalu). Aside from one dime package -- forgive my lack of proper terminology, I'm no guru -- that puts him in the slot, he seems to have a pretty basic role in their scheme. Sure there are some safety blitzes to get him involved and showing blitz might move him around a little. But, I guess what I'd like to find is a 3-4 playbook that has some sort of unique role that moves a safety (or possibly LB) around the field thru different packages to create different blitz/coverage looks. Does such a thing exist in Madden? Thanks again.

The personnel packages are pretty much the same for every team. You are going to have your standard CB1/2 at the Nickel position for your Nickel and Dime defenses. You'll always get an option of DE Pass Rush or OLB Pass Rush in those formations as well.

The closest thing to doing something like you would want is the SS at OLB package in 3-4 Even. The problem is that its first and foremost in every 3-4 Even in the game and I can't remember which SS gets thrown in there so you might have to mess around with your depth chart to get the right guy there. Other than that you have the option to flip the safeties positions around, and bring him down in the box by playing Cover 1 and Cover 3 but outside of that the FS Middle zone blitzes and Dbl Safety Blitzes (Falcon Blitz concept) are pretty much all you've got to work with.

You could start messing around with the formation subs, but I know that process could get rather tedious if you have to keep switching him around places. I do something similar with Woodson, though I make it slightly more static than changing where he is on the defense from play to play. He plays safety in my base formations but when I go Nickel or Dime he is my Nickel back so I can utilize his blitzing ability on the edge and his tackling ability in the run game.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Just to add. They need more DLine animations and less engage then perform move. They need to actually be fluid movements where a guy can perform a move without getting stuck first. The movement is still train track movement. That is to say, everyone is on a track and they cannot get off of it until they engage someone. Notice here: Notice the stunting DLinemen in this video. They are not touching anyone. They will sell it like they are going to rush and then perform the stunt.

Thank you for that video, I wanted something like this for the guy who asked what a TE stunt was but unfortunately dial up doesn't let you find things unless you are very patient. Luckily I have a bookmarked list of sites and videos but strangely enough a good Stunting video was not one of them (unless you count Cross Fire blitzes as inside stunts).

I perfectly understand where it is done improperly in game, I know not nearly as fluid as it should be and that interior linemen needs to kick out instead of doing what he does. I guess my entire reason for thinking that its not some freak occurrence that it works like it does is because there is literally no other use for that animation, it doesn't serve any other purpose and when you do it from a 3 man rush where you can't stunt behind an interior linemen you normally end up getting blocked.

Sure its an example of EA half heartedly adding something into their game, its bad enough that its only useful for those rushers with high finesse move ratings. However, its also one of the few times I've been pleasantly surprised by something in the game, and it actually gives finesse rushers something unique to hang their hat on in this game. Most of the time Power Rushers are always considered better because when you can just run through a blocker instead of fiddling with spin moves then you tend to be more effective but when you can create A gap pressure off of a stunt it gives people a reason to look at these guys.

[Melicant]

Quote: Originally Posted by Qb

Based on my limited exploration, I suspected most of the plays were similar and it was mainly the packages that differed. I needed to be more specific up front, but if it's not too much trouble, I have a question or two about the differences in packages (yeah, I said that). The Steelers book seems somewhat "vanilla" to me in the way it utilizes blitzers, namely DBs (esp Polamalu). Aside from one dime package -- forgive my lack of proper terminology, I'm no guru -- that puts him in the slot, he seems to have a pretty basic role in their scheme. Sure there are some safety blitzes to get him involved and showing blitz might move him around a little. But, I guess what I'd like to find is a 3-4 playbook that has some sort of unique role that moves a safety (or possibly LB) around the field thru different packages to create different blitz/coverage looks. Does such a thing exist in Madden? Thanks again.

The standard packers defense has a some formations that move the starting safety down near the line and puts the backup safety in at the standard postion.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

I just want to say I love this discussion and offers great insight. I just want to ask baller. Can you explain "Slide Protection" and how to utilize it effectively in game? Reason I ask, is I rarely use it because when I do pick up a blitz and use it, it always seems to allow a free runner at some point. Almost like the lineman become confused by the shift. About the only time I make use of it on a consistent basis is on designed roll outs. I find sliding to the roll out direction will buy more realistic time to work towards the side line for the open receiver.

It isn't perfect by any means but it is the best we've had to this point. If you are just trying to pick up a 5 man overload and don't want to leave a back or TE into block then you simply slide towards the direction of the overload.

If you need to work a 6 man protection scheme then you want to always make sure your have a balanced protection scheme. You want to have 3 blockers on either side of the formation so that you can stop any 3v2 overload attempts. This typically means blocking a back and TE and then either sliding towards the overload while the extra blockers block away from the overload or sliding away from the overload while the extra blockers are responsible for picking up their hots (aka the free rushers).

If they are running man blitzes there are occassions when the defense will Green Dog you with the players manned up with the back and TE so that even if you block 6 you'll find yourself under duress because they are now sending 7 in their Cover 0 blitz. This applies to going max protect and blocking 8 as well. They'll sometimes green dog everyone they can and you are going to be facing 9 blitzers. This doesn't happen everytime however and when it does its usually from the edge. If this does happen then that is where a well practiced quick game comes into play. Having several go to 1/3 step drop concepts can really help in these situations. Concepts like Stick and Omaha (flanker speed outs) can really help get the pressure off of you.

There are also the cases where for whatever reason the slide protection simply doesn't work like you think it would and then you just have to spit ball it. Many times you can still run your quick stuff and just throw it hot to stop the free rusher while other times you'll have to use some unconventional and seemingly wrong protection schemes to pick it up. These aren't that common though, most of the time slide protection is beat is because a back doesn't get on his man fast enough or the defense has green dogged a player after they see their assignment isn't running a route.

Then you have the nanos that require you to block anywhere from 8 guys to pick up 6 or 6 guys to pick up 1. Just avoid these people there is no reason to try and wrap your head around beating these. They can be beat (which is why every freestyle player says they aren't glitches) but they certainly aren't football.

EDIT:
If you aren't playing Madden 13 then the full slide protect they've given us (M10-12) is fundamentally broken. It doesn't allow the back an TE to stay put and handle the hots so it is almost useless unless you have a back or TE on a delayed route. The delayed routes don't slide like regular blocking assignments do for some reason.