Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[DrJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by G3no_11

He's not incredibly far off from those players on the list, but I can agree that his road numbers should be higher for a 1st baseman. My point behind saying his road numbers aren't that far off was to show that he wasn't a bad player on the road at all.

Manny has a road slugging percentage that's more than 100 points better than Helton (Bonds and Pujols more than 120 points). That's GIGANTIC. There's a bigger difference in slugging between Bonds/Pujols and Helton than there is between Helton and Omar Vizquel.

[G3no_11]

Quote: Originally Posted by DrJones

Manny has a road slugging percentage that's more than 100 points better than Helton (Bonds and Pujols more than 120 points). That's GIGANTIC. There's a bigger difference in slugging between Bonds/Pujols and Helton than there is between Helton and Omar Vizquel.

Quote: Originally Posted by 55

Pujols road: .317/.402/.601 A-Rod road: .293/.379/.543 Jeter road: .309/.373/.437 Ramirez road: .314/.409/.580 Bonds road: .296/.440/.597

Helton road: .289/.389/.473

Bolded are the stats that Helton was actually better than those players on the road.

Also:
He was only -.007 behind Bonds' .296 average.

He was only -.004 behind Arod's .293 average.

But even looking at it this way, it's somewhat unfair. All of those players besides Manny Ramirez (who actually was split pretty evenly home/road) hit better at home. Helton blows them all out at home and Coors can be credited to a lot of it, but you can't just disregard someone's home stats completely.

The only real argument that can come out of this, is that he didn't put up prototypical HoF 1B power numbers on the road. Which could definitely hurt him in the HOF voting. You would hope a guy like Helton would hit 500+ dingers but really aside from a 6-7 year stretch in his career, he's been more of a doubles hitter.

[WaitTilNextYear]

I think you'd have a better argument for Larry Walker. I don't think Helton quite gets there.

[ubernoob]

Or average more than 75 RBI for the majority of his career, or top 120 RBI more than the two seasons that were considered his peak.

He's a very good player but not HOF-caliber

[G3no_11]

Quote: Originally Posted by ubernoob

Or average more than 75 RBI for the majority of his career, or top 120 RBI more than the two seasons that were considered his peak.

Maybe I just miscalculated, but I calculated an average of 80 RBI per season. That is including this year and the last 3 or 4 years where he has been injury plagued.

1376 RBI/17 Seasons = 80.8?

Also, he tallied 113 RBI, and 117 RBI in 2 other seasons. That's pretty damn close to 120. You can't put total blame on him for RBI either... you gotta have people on base to hit in and he was on some pretty poor teams through out his career.

[G3no_11]

Quote: Originally Posted by WaitTilNextYear

I think you'd have a better argument for Larry Walker. I don't think Helton quite gets there.

I was done with the Helton argument lol. But everytime it get's brought up again I have something else to say because someone either took what I said out of context or they bring up a certain stat but not giving the full story behind it.

EDIT: I do really hope Larry get's in though. It's too bad he became pretty injury prone in the last few seasons of his career.. but man was he fun to watch in his prime.

[snepp]

Quote: Originally Posted by WaitTilNextYear

And yet, despite all those walks, he made the 40th most outs all time (he was 28th in PAs though). So he made outs, lots and lots of big fat outs. My main contention is he wasn't really that good of a hitter. Good walker, good glove-guy, good runner, good teammate and winner, so-so bat.

Here's the problem, your main contention is wrong, very very very wrong. And you won't find an analyst (professional or otherwise) with even a modicum of a clue that would ever agree with it.

Quote:

The whole gee let's use wRC and OPS+ for everything is tiresome (not really blaming you for that, I'm just seeing that stat everywhere...when people should be looking at a bunch of metrics). Using 100 as the barometer for OPS+ proves nothing other than he was above average and consistent.

Of course it's tiresome for you, you've got absolutely nothing to counter them and they pummel every lousy, 19th century argument you've tried to make.

[snepp]

Quote: Originally Posted by WaitTilNextYear

But Morgan's AVG and SLG were lower than Ryno's.

Do you understand the concepts of context, and eras?


Here are some fun with numbers.

Sandberg had 5 seasons where his OPS+ was greater than 130.

Morgan had a career OPS+ over 130.


Another, Sandberg had a career OPS+ of 114.

Morgan had an OPS+ of 118 in the 80's, in his age 36-40 seasons.