Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking

[LBzrule]

Tomb I agree with you that it should be about talent in some respects. But I don't think that should negate a pocket or guys getting up the field, it should simply diminish what they can do once they get up the field. The Chiefs were one of the worse teams last year in getting to the QB. But that does not mean that Tamba Hali is slow up the field and cannot run the arc. He was pretty decent when Jared Allen was opposite of him. So I think the still should get up the field, but just be diminished in what he can do once he gets up there, UNLESS there is someone on the other side.

This is what I'm not too sure about All Pro. You mention having to stack your Dline if you want crazy pressure from it. I disagree with this. I've had several teams where I only had 1 Dlineman and he would sometimes dominate, 5 sack games, and sometimes he did not do much.

As far as defensive fronts I'm big on those, and hoping we get a few more. As far as fearing a back like Earl Campbell, I'll just say it this way, the CD build needed a lot of tuning. While I loved the game, it was 2k4 ish with respect to RB's, with Jacobs being "Ricky Williams like." I don't think you want that. I'm not sure I mind it too much as long as I get the defensive fronts I need.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Ok, now I'm going to have to disagree. I played several games tonight and paused to watch the line play on it, as well as the blitzing LBs. The LBs are definitely keyed in on the QB (and not their lane), but I don't see them making their cuts/slants based on the QBs motion. Their choice of angle is random as far as I can tell as is when they determine to cut. Sometimes it's before the QB comes to a stop, sometimes it's before. It's all over the place. One other thing regarding the blocking that's going on in APF2K8 that I failed to mention earlier with regards to the example Ian used in his blog; selecting the blocked player and performing a reach tackle could have gotten hands on the runner. Even with that said, Ian's point still stands, the block kept the defensive player in the blocking animation where their only choice was to perform a reach tackle (the only branch in Madden terms I guess), and prohibiting them from simply turning around getting off the block and running up field after the runner.

You might be right. But I'm not sure it is as random as being made out. I had several replays saved on my HD where this type of BS occurs (namely) where a backer would have a lane and just completely abandon it for no reason whatsoever (that doesn't sound random to me, that sounds programmatic). Secondly, I think the biggest evidence of the DL being tied to the QB in 2k is when you get a DT that gets a free run at the QB (when he is in the gun or from under center). You will notice the the DT once he breaks through, rather than running AT the QB, he will run down and turn and sack the QB (what Kanobi and I used to call the L blitz route). And worse of all, sometimes he will run right by him while looking at him (as the QB is dropping).

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

You might be right. But I'm not sure it is as random as being made out. I had several replays saved on my HD where this type of BS occurs (namely) where a backer would have a lane and just completely abandon it for no reason whatsoever (that doesn't sound random to me, that sounds programmatic). Secondly, I think the biggest evidence of the DL being tied to the QB in 2k is when you get a DT that gets a free run at the QB (when he is in the gun or from under center). You will notice the the DT once he breaks through, rather than running AT the QB, he will run down and turn and sack the QB (what Kanobi and I used to call the L blitz route). And worse of all, sometimes he will run right by him while looking at him (as the QB is dropping).

I'm not arguing that they abandon their lanes. They do it all the time, and for no apparent reason (one of the very frustrating aspect of APF2K8's blitzing game). What I couldn't see when watching the replays was a consistent pattern of them doing so based on the QB's actions (such as when the QB came to a stop). It was my understanding that was your point, that the LB's abandoned their lanes when a QB stopped in their drop back. Yet when I wached the replays, the guys would makes their cuts in/out (either into their lane, or away from it) at random times. I did not see a consistent pattern with regards to when it occurred.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I did get to see the above video by LBz and LBz was right. The Wheel LB had a lane to charge to the QB, but somehow targeted the LG and tried to go to the outside. The lane was as wide as a semi to pull through.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not arguing about the bad path, but in LB's video example he doesn't target the LG, he' just chooses a lane that takes him in that general direction (actually to the right of the guard). It's only when he cuts back in, towads the QB that he comes directly in contact with the guard. His path is not directly towards the LG as though he is keyed in on him.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

I'm not arguing that they abandon their lanes. They do it all the time, and for no apparent reason (one of the very frustrating aspect of APF2K8's blitzing game). What I couldn't see when watching the replays was a consistent pattern of them doing so based on the QB's actions (such as when the QB came to a stop). It was my understanding that was your point, that the LB's abandoned their lanes when a QB stopped in their drop back. Yet when I wached the replays, the guys would makes their cuts in/out (either into their lane, or away from it) at random times. I did not see a consistent pattern with regards to when it occurred.

Gotcha. And I admit, it may not be as pronounced as I'm making it, although, that's what I was told. I think a good test for it is to do this if you get a chance. Call fan stunt against 3 step, 5 step drop, and manual 1 step drop from under center and from the gun (from the gun do a no step drop, make the QB stand still) and see if the Dline remains in their pass rush lanes.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Gotcha. And I admit, it may not be as pronounced as I'm making it, although, that's what I was told. I think a good test for it is to do this if you get a chance. Call fan stunt against 3 step, 5 step drop, and manual 1 step drop from under center and from the gun (from the gun do a no step drop, make the QB stand still) and see if the Dline remains in their pass rush lanes.

Last night, I was only watching the LBs, I didn't pay attention to the Lineman so please realize the info above only relates to the LBs. I'll have to watch the DLineman closely next time I play. I always felt they followed their lane based on memory, primarily due to things like the DE Twist glitch (where the DLine was expecting them at a very specific point). However, I know there are times when the OLine/DLine gets messed up somehow and a DLiner just comes straight through. Usually when I see this behavior, it's because the Center/Guard combo (both of them) decided to move to far to the right/left letting a DT come though untouched. I have never broke it down though and tried to determine the cause of their strange behaviour.

This is OT, but while testing last night I got a botched Punt snap animation where the snap goes over the punters head. Only the 3rd time it's ever happened, and I turned on the Hava and recorded it. So I'll have to post it on YouTube later today. Just one of those rare events you almost never, ever see.

[shep64]

One thing that I would like to see is a trade off of d linemen. the ends tend to go wide but the interior will often work with the center holding back the DT's trading them off to each other.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Tomb I agree with you that it should be about talent in some respects. But I don't think that should negate a pocket or guys getting up the field, it should simply diminish what they can do once they get up the field. The Chiefs were one of the worse teams last year in getting to the QB. But that does not mean that Tamba Hali is slow up the field and cannot run the arc. He was pretty decent when Jared Allen was opposite of him. So I think the still should get up the field, but just be diminished in what he can do once he gets up there, UNLESS there is someone on the other side. This is what I'm not too sure about All Pro. You mention having to stack your Dline if you want crazy pressure from it. I disagree with this. I've had several teams where I only had 1 Dlineman and he would sometimes dominate, 5 sack games, and sometimes he did not do much. As far as defensive fronts I'm big on those, and hoping we get a few more. As far as fearing a back like Earl Campbell, I'll just say it this way, the CD build needed a lot of tuning. While I loved the game, it was 2k4 ish with respect to RB's, with Jacobs being "Ricky Williams like." I don't think you want that. I'm not sure I mind it too much as long as I get the defensive fronts I need.

You are right here. The context I am speaking to is you need some talent in the front 4. I went talent all the way across with my squads. I am not advocating you need all 4 to be studs to get pressure on the QB. I think you do need at least 1 player noted for being a disruptive force on your dline if thats all you are sending to get pressure on the QB.

Now look at it from a strategic point of view. Its easy for me as a offensive coordinator to negate 1 disruptive defensive lineman I only have to have 1 stud offensive lineman to negate him, or double him with pass blocking scheme or keep in one HB or the TE to help.

The more studs you have on the dline the more of a problem you create for the offense to try and block them all. In 2K8 yes, you could have a game where 1 lineman could cause havoc, but it also could be negated with the right line calls/personel/pass block hot routes.

I dont want anymore football games created where the offense or the defense can do something that allows them to unbalance the game in such a way it cannot be countered or allows them to negate the fact the got a scrub/scrubs playing that should not allow them to run their squad that way.

Example: My 2K8 team of 4 star linemen and a all generic LB core and CB's and Safetys.

I got punished by teams with great backs and pretty much had to call plays that sold out to the run to stop them, opening me up to pass plays deep down field. Thats the price I had to pay for not having enough talent to stop the elite RB's in the game.

However if you did not run, or did not have a stud RB, I could sit back in coverage without having to send anyone on the blitz. My dline rarely gave anyone time to go deep, and if I called the right plays my defense of scrubs did reasonably well at stopping the pass. Which also varied with the level of the WR's I was facing.

2k8 was not perfect but it was/is the most balanced football game we have ever had. The Madden gang gotta do something besides fudge the player ratings/jack around with the game speed(like last year) to try and emmulate the balance 2K8 has.

I dont expect the Madden only ballers to see things from the perspective of guys who play 2K football. They have not had the stuff in madden we enjoy in 2K8. I do expect the Madden Devs to be at least thinking, We gotta bring our game up to that level to please the guys who have had these things and want and improvement on what 2K8 has done.

To the purely Madden guys any improvement is gonna send them into nirvana. The 2K vets need something to look forward to in Madden. What are they gonna do for us ?